I think this card alone won't cause someone to lose by honor, but it will choke them by it. Similar to Lion and Crane - I think honor wins won't happen as much as people will lose the battle because it is a choice of giving honor (or giving up honor) or playing less. I like that these are the choices because it always gives the players the choice - there is less solitaire in this - and if the player can't properly set up the honor choke then their honor / dishonor effects won't have much sway.

Doesn't say "each honored Crane character you control has Sincerity."

To me that would be a continuous check.

18 minutes ago, Kakita Katai said:

Questions: one of the text lines on Asahina Storyteller says "Each Crane character you control gains sincerity." So does a Crane character gain the Sincerity trait upon getting honored? I would say yes. Does it disappear if it loses honored status? I'd say no. Does Sincerity disappear on other Crane characters disappear if Asahina Storyteller leaves play? I'd say no.

Checking rulings.

In a sane world the answers to all of those would be yes. Otherwise would mean that things like your character retaining covert once their attached Tattooed Wanderer has been destroyed.

27 minutes ago, Kakita Katai said:

Questions: one of the text lines on Asahina Storyteller says "Each Crane character you control gains sincerity." So does a Crane character gain the Sincerity trait upon getting honored? I would say yes. Does it disappear if it loses honored status? I'd say no. Does Sincerity disappear on other Crane characters disappear if Asahina Storyteller leaves play? I'd say no.

Checking rulings.

The sincerity is only there as long as the storyteller is on the table. But if he leaves play during the fate phase you can trigger sincerity on your other honored guys that leave at the same time to get maximum card draw.

The moment the the Storyteller is off the board or the honor status get removed from a guy, then the sincerity goes with it.

I think this is pretty awesome. Lots of possibilities for conflicts.

I get the feeling Scorpion decks are going to constantly ask themselves whether they run 2 Watch Commanders and 3 Reprieve, or do they run all 3 Watch Commanders and only 1 Reprieve?

51 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I get the feeling Scorpion decks are going to constantly ask themselves whether they run 2 Watch Commanders and 3 Reprieve, or do they run all 3 Watch Commanders and only 1 Reprieve?

Who knows there may even be better cards yet previewed! Though I doubt we'll see one much better for scorpion than this. But if there is a dishonor card that costs less influence it might be more tempting.

On ‎09‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 10:04 PM, MoZi said:

Who knows there may even be better cards yet previewed! Though I doubt we'll see one much better for scorpion than this. But if there is a dishonor card that costs less influence it might be more tempting.

If there is something scarier than an honor bleed of 1 to 3 points every time they play a card I don't want to see it! I think this card might make some decks splash Dragon however they can just for Let Go.

But yeah, if there is something more straightforward and cheaper it might well influence deck building stuffs.

I'd love it if Crab were like a Military Dishonor clan while Scorpion were like a Dishonor with Military(well... Ninjas.)

This is... kinda ridiculous.

I mean, we *just* saw a clan that wants cards in hand and doesn't have any real way to gain honor outside of the Dial and Ring mechanics.
A card like this is PAINFUL for any clan like that...
And it has Mil/Pol boosts and all for 1 Fate? ...

Well Miya Mystic is neutral and it manipulates attachments. That card seems like it's shaping up to be a staple since I'm sure most people don't want to splash Dragon just for Let Go. Dragon could easily run both to protect themselves from these sorts of tricks.

On 7/9/2017 at 9:47 AM, kiramode said:

@Anemura

To be clear, I think the Asahina Storyteller is a bad card on its own. The only way you can really justify playing him is if you're abusing the card draw he gives your board. He's also both a Sugenja and Courtier, so that gives a slight boost too. But he's still bad enough that he ends up in my first rounds of cuts for any Crane deck I build if I'm not specifically building around him.

Furthermore; I think a lot of dynasty cards are pretty bad. Power levels in card games are never set by the averages, they are set by the strongest cards.

Aggro Lions are the easiest deck to hit the 2 for 1 across all your guys. The deck has 9 dynasty cards can can hit the desired threshold, with little help. The other 4 cards are cards that give extra province flips(Akoso Gunso, Staging grounds), the Clan Champ, and the Imperial Storehouse(guaranteed value). When a deck like this exists, all other decks need to be graded on that curve.

That's not to say all decks need to jam guys that are able to hit a 2 for 1 absolute value for stats, but they need to be on the level. If they're not hitting the desired value on pure stats, they better have text that can make up for it. Preventing events doesn't negate 4 point of lost value most of the time because your opponent knows it's there and can plan accordingly. But drawing 2-3 cards might since your opponent doesn't really have control over your deck.

As for versatility, it's still tough to judge. Doji Challenger isn't good because she is a 3/3 for 3, she's good because of her text. She could be a 1/1 and would still see play. She has probably the strongest text in the game. The stats she has are just a bonus. Being able to prevent your opponent's biggest guy from attacking by forcing them into a meaningless defensive battle is downright disgusting. As for the Honored General, how often are you actually blocking political with him? Paying 4 for a 3 political is a horrendous investment. It's not worthless, but it really shouldn't be swinging card evaluations. I think in just about any other clan he would actually be pretty solid. You send him in with 3 other guys and he's providing 8 skill for your board. Of course, if you already have 3 guys to swing with in Lion, then the General isn't needed because you already have your stronghold. He's just a waste there.

Can you list the 9 Dynasty Cards Lion that "hit the desired threshold with little help"? From previous conversations, I'm assuming you have Matsu Berzerker, Obstinate Recruit, Lion's Pride Brawler, Matsu Beiona, Akodo Gunso and Venerable Historian in that category? What are all the 2:1 ratio cards you see in the Lion?

Re GoH: Overall, we are discussing Game Economy here. I questioned your assertion of GoH being a "bad" card because I don't think it is. However, my scale is bad-below par-average-good-great while I think yours is just bad-good -- with a lot of dynasty cards falling into the bad category. And while it is true that environments are often defined by their best cards, the environment also changes with the more cards that are released. What was once good can become great, or average. So while we disagree on what GoH represents as of right now, I think this discussion is more about what abilities are worth. As in, what do abilities translate to become.

I liked this post by Eu8L1ch: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/253519-game-economy-honor-fate-and-cards/ I think it can help us come to a resolution on Game Economy regarding GoH.

In the write up, Eu8L1ch posits that "2 Fate = 2 Honor = 1 CC". To apply this to Asahina Storyteller, his 4 Fate cost can be broken down into a 2/2 for 2 Fate + 0/2 for 1 Fate = 3 Fate for stats alone. 1 Fate is allocated towards his ability to gain Conflict Cards via Serenity. Meaning, 1 CC drawn equates to + 2 Fate. So with 1 Card drawn, AS makes up his 4 Fate cost + 1 Fate bonus, to a total of 5 Fate. More cards drawn would push that Fate total further, but would also result in having more characters leave the board. Suffice it to say, the equivalent of drawing a card is worth at least 1 Fate.

What would be fair to say if we apply that same equation to GoH and Event prevention? Does 1 CC Nullified = at least 1 Fate? I think you would say no because the "opponent knows that it's there and can plan accordingly". To that I would say: Planning around an ability is not the same thing as succeeding through an ability. An opponent can of course play whatever events he/she is allowed to play before Conflicts. That lets the GoH player know almost exactly what he has to do in order to break a province before hand. The real power of the card is preventing Conflict Card Events that are played "during a conflict". And to me, 2-3 cards prevented in that manner is worth 2-3 drawn cards by way of Asahina Storyteller. You are actually preventing some of the best cards in the game from being played at the most important times in the game.

Final note:

Events are inherently more powerful than Attachments. Events expire instantaneously while Attachments are allowed to persist. So we know that Event effects are generally too powerful to persist. This is akin to Action Cards and Items in Old5R's CCG. Events vs. Conflict Card Characters I think need more time to be evaluated. But by and large, when you are preventing 2-3 Events from being played, you are taking an opponents best weapons away from them, IMO.

3 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

This is... kinda ridiculous.

I mean, we *just* saw a clan that wants cards in hand and doesn't have any real way to gain honor outside of the Dial and Ring mechanics.
A card like this is PAINFUL for any clan like that...
And it has Mil/Pol boosts and all for 1 Fate? ...

Do people not gain honor for winning fights in L5R these days?

3 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

This is... kinda ridiculous.

I mean, we *just* saw a clan that wants cards in hand and doesn't have any real way to gain honor outside of the Dial and Ring mechanics.
A card like this is PAINFUL for any clan like that...
And it has Mil/Pol boosts and all for 1 Fate? ...

Well, then said clan may need to play their attachments before entering into conflicts. This card pretty much forces you to telegraph your moves instead of being a surprise more.

Watch Commander is a solid card, I think. If the fight is not important or you know your opponent somehow can't play cards, then you simply spend your Fate on something else, since being playable at action speed means you can play it exactly when you expect it to make an impact. The fact it triggers off of any card type is also a big boon, and makes contesting the fight very expensive for your opponent, no matter what their strategy was. Its main selling point in my eyes is the stats boost though: even if your opponent decides not to play cards because of this, you're still getting a return for your 1-fate investment - and this card could potentially stay in play for the next round(s) as well. An important thing to note is that it is at its best when you are the defender, since you get first action.

Re: the comparison between Asahina Artisan and Guest of Honor, I think they're both situational cards - more specifically, they're strong late/mid-game cards, but they're not as good to form the core of your board presence. The Artisan clearly needs some setup, whereas for the Guest of Honor it is less obvious. Similiar to abilities that send characters home, preventing your opponent from playing cards in that conflict is not the same as cancelling them; however when you need to win a key conflict, the Guest's ability is very very strong. In one of my matches, I was hit by a SoL/For Shame! combo at a decisive battle and I realised I couldn't even play my Ready for Battle, not to mention my own For Shame!. Another thing to consider: the more powerful events are added to the cardpool, the stronger the GoH will become. Now, I'm not sure situational characters are worth the include (maybe yes, since having 4 province slots gives quite a wide range of choices); what I disagree with is the statement that GoH is a bad card because its stats-cost ratio is not compensated for by its ability: despite said ability being situational, it can win games. As for its stats-cost ratio, it's just average but gives you a pretty good return for a single additional Fate spent, in terms of staying power; its 1 value for Military is clearly there to prevent it from being too efficient at preventing stuff like Banzai! during Mil conflicts as well.

Bottom line, I think the key feature here is how we should value situationally powerful abilities on characters in this game.

As for GoH being too expensive, if you're interested, I'm discussing character costs in more detail here (go to the "The Characters" section) - in short, it's a balancing act (and I find it awesome the designers managed to achieve it in this game). As Kiramode states in a post on the previous page, a flop of all Otomo courtiers is not ideal, so I think, even in a swarmy deck, it becomes a matter of deciding on which "heavies" you want to spend your extra Fate.

@kiramode

Honored General might be overkill against Crane, but I'm not sure that'll be the case against a Clan like Crab, which is designed with mounting successful defences in mind.

@Anemura

The cards that can hit the desired 2 for 1 in a Lion swarm deck are: Otomo Courtier(2 for 1), Seppun Guardsman(2 for 1), Ikoma Prodigy(2 for 1), Matsu Berserker(3 for 1), Matsu Beiona(9 for 3), Lion's Pride Brawler(5-7 for 3 depending how big the highest value is of the guy you lock down), Venerable Historian(4 for 2), Obstinate Recruit(2 for 0), Steadfast Samurai(2-3 for 1 depending on how many extra turns he lives, he's by far the flimsiest of the group)

Ultimately, there is a price to pay for efficiency. You're going to have to low bid at least one time in the game, and mid bid 1-2 more times. You'll only be in a position where you can max bid about 1-2 times a game because a number of your guys require that extra honor.

This segues into the discussion of how to weigh fate vs honor vs cards. The methodology of how to get to the equation of 2 fate=2 honor=1 CC was pretty busted. The fundamental problem of the methodology was assuming that all the cards in question were equal in power. You can't compare Honored Blade, Ancestral Daisho, and Height of Fashion to Ornate Fan and Fine Katana because the Fan and the Katana are both dramatically better that the other 3 cards.

A card that was brought up in that same post was Good Omen. Good Omen is an established top end card. To play Good Omen you have to underbid your opponent by at least 1. So it costs you a card there. Then you have to play the card itself which costs you another card. The result is 1 fate. So at the very least you can clearly say that 1 fate +2 honor=2CC. I'm not saying that this equivalence should be taken as gospel, what I'm saying is that the standard used for value should be able to hold up easily to other established good cards.

I think card draw and honor are the toughest things to evaluate in the game right now. A huge part of that is simply that we don't have a huge cardpool to make proper judgements. Mechanically, the game designers placed the price of 1 conflict card to be 2 honor. But in playing the game having a 1 card advantage is more valuable than 2 extra honor. Cards are flexible whereas honor kind of just sits there unless you have an Assassination or guys that specifically require that you have more honor. Does this mean 1CC=3 honor or 1CC =4 honor? Not exactly. But it does mean that when trying to evaluate what card draw is worth you shouldn't look at a 2 for 1 ratio of honor and cards just because there is a mechanic in the game that says that's what the ratio is.

As for my personal 2 for 1 standard: it's more or less arbitrary. I wanted something to work off of and it's a really easy standard to hit. Just about every weenie can hit that standard, any unique can hit that standard if you have a second copy, and any big guy can hit that standard if you have enough fate. Even the aforementioned GoH which is 4 for 4 becomes 12 for 6 if you place 2 fate on her when you play her. The danger of placing extra fate on big guys is that they become prime Void ring targets, prime bow effect targets, and prime kill spell targets. The danger of banking on powerful text as a substitute for value is that your opponent might not give you a chance to use your text properly thereby reducing your value. The danger of banking on weenies to generate value is that you run the risk of floating mana. But that's the fun of the game. It's trying to maximize your own value while reducing the value your opponent gets.

My suspicion is that the ratio will end up being something closer to 3 to 1 as the game gets more cards. Also, there will come a time when players are able to properly evaluate card draw, honor, and non-bow card text.

Raw total stats are not a good measure of character value because players have some control over what type of conflict they assign the character to.

for example, a 1/1 is less valuable than a 0/2, because a player can more likely than not ensure the 0/2 fights a political conflict.

edit: I think Kiramode recognizes that, when I look at the post again: so fair enough

It is true that the more expensive characters gain more of their value from card text, and there are cases when the value of the card text may not be sufficient. I think Kiramode's focus on the raw stat power of cheap personalities available to lion is a good starting point for analysis, but the analysis is so far too simple to be fully accurate.

23 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Raw total stats are not a good measure of character value because players have some control over what type of conflict they assign the character to.

for example, a 1/1 is less valuable than a 0/2, because a player can more likely than not ensure the 0/2 fights a political conflict.

edit: I think Kiramode recognizes that, when I look at the post again: so fair enough

It is true that the more expensive characters gain more of their value from card text, and there are cases when the value of the card text may not be sufficient. I think Kiramode's focus on the raw stat power of cheap personalities available to lion is a good starting point for analysis, but the analysis is so far too simple to be fully accurate.

Starting point is the key wording here. 2 skill for 1 fate is not a measure of a card's greatness, but rather a minimum barrier of entry. It's a pretty low bar. One day we're going to have decks where every card is on the level of Lion's Pride Brawler, Doji Challenger, Banzai, and For Shame. But for now in a cardpool with a bunch of mediocre to bad cards it functions as an easy way to cut the fat and have some sort of barometer of how to evaluate cards.

The reason I only look at the biggest skill is that 95% of cards only get to contribute their skill once per round.

For for example: if we take away card text and cost would a player rather have a 3/3 or a 3/- and -/2? If you count all the stats the 3/3 is better is because you have 6 total stats to 5. But if you only count the highest stats, then having the two bodies is better. If you have the two bodies you're for sure getting 5 skill over the course of the 4 conflicts. The 3/3 is only going to contribute 3. You have flexibility, but that flexibility isn't worth 2 skill. Is it worth 1? Tough to say. Flexibility is kind of hard to measure and is usually one of the last things I look at when making card evaluations for that reason specifically.

12 hours ago, RandomJC said:

Well, then said clan may need to play their attachments before entering into conflicts. This card pretty much forces you to telegraph your moves instead of being a surprise more.

The majority of things you'll want to play in a battle are probably not attachments.
Not every clan is Dragon.

For instance, I cannot imagine Scorpion will be reliably able to honor gain, and I certainly foresee them being a conflict deck-heavy clan (we'll see if I'm wrong when previews drop). Ditto Crab in the mirror. Phoenix is up in the air (will they be spell-heavy or defensive event heavy? Will they be honor-centric or no? We'll see).

13 hours ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Do people not gain honor for winning fights in L5R these days?

One of the rings let's you take an honor from your opponent or 2 from the bank. It's not like before

10 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

The majority of things you'll want to play in a battle are probably not attachments.
Not every clan is Dragon.

For instance, I cannot imagine Scorpion will be reliably able to honor gain, and I certainly foresee them being a conflict deck-heavy clan (we'll see if I'm wrong when previews drop). Ditto Crab in the mirror. Phoenix is up in the air (will they be spell-heavy or defensive event heavy? Will they be honor-centric or no? We'll see).

(Well, Dragon was the clan we *Just* saw. )

I also think this card is being over valued. It makes it tricky for a conflict. It may not be as deadly as it seems when we see play. Unless you get the magic combination of multiple of these on multiple characters with fate (Or the defender), I don't think it'll be as big of a problem for more than a conflict.

Most of the non-Lion (and arguably Crane, though they seem to care more about becoming Honored rather than gaining Honor) games I've watched people play, Honor tends to trend downward much more often than upward.
So if you force a few extra points of honor off of someone in a single battle (more if you RoA them for an extra one) then suddenly you've significantly impacted their ability to draw cards, impacted their ability to participate competitively in duels, and possibly put them in a position where being dishonored out becomes a real threat.

All from 1 card with a 1 Fate cost.

That's kinda crazy to me.

Just now, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Most of the non-Lion games I've watched people play, Honor tends to trend downward much more often than upward.
So if you force a few extra points of honor off of someone in a single battle (more if you RoA them for an extra one) then suddenly you've significantly impacted their ability to draw cards, impacted their ability to participate competitively in duels, and possibly put them in a position where being dishonored out becomes a real threat.

All from 1 card with a 1 Fate cost.

That's kinda crazy to me.

I'd say then don't play conflict cards. A strategic loss can be very effective.

35 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'd say then don't play conflict cards. A strategic loss can be very effective.

It can just as easily lose you the game, however.

9 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

It can just as easily lose you the game, however.

Eh, not in my experience. This card means you have to play smart around it. But I don't think it's as game unbalancing as you're treating it. I can think of a few ways to deal with it.

And I'd say if you can't take a strategic loss, you've already lost the game.

If Conquest taught me anything it's that sometimes you need to lose to win. This game definitely gives me that same feeling. Inefficient use of cards and resources in the short term can cost you in the long term.