Something a bit more defensive for an alpha meta.

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23)
Reinforced Deflectors (3)
Wookiee Commandos (1)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23)
Reinforced Deflectors (3)
Wookiee Commandos (1)

Rookie Pilot (21)
R4-D6 (1)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Rookie Pilot (21)
R5-P9 (3)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Instead we got a ship that is a turret, alpha striker and has some great maneuverability for arc dodging, twice and they are both in the scum faction.

Hey, the Rebels got all that twice as well. In fact, the Rebels got a ship that is a turret, alpha striker, has great maneuverability for arc dodging, regenerates AND is probably the best bomber in the game.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good rant, shall we?

The thing is so many of these putative alpha strike options already exist (like the Bombers) and they haven't made many waves.

Alpha striking alone won't get you anywhere. Even back in the original Torpscout days the torpedoes alone weren't getting it all done, just getting you far enough ahead you could grind it out with large base barrel-rolling turrets. The full alpha strike lists are so one-dimensional that they're not a serious proposition. Am I worried by Bomber alpha squads? No. I'm not worried by Scurrgs, or Kihraxz, or K-Wings, or Mindlink Scouts, or anything else that I can see on the horizon either because history teaches us that they're almost never good enough.

Old but still good at 1 shotting Ghosts and Decimators lol

Swarm - Advanced Alpha (100)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Minimum of 16 hits maximum of 24 on the alpha

17 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The thing is so many of these putative alpha strike options already exist (like the Bombers) and they haven't made many waves.

Alpha striking alone won't get you anywhere. Even back in the original Torpscout days the torpedoes alone weren't getting it all done, just getting you far enough ahead you could grind it out with large base barrel-rolling turrets. The full alpha strike lists are so one-dimensional that they're not a serious proposition. Am I worried by Bomber alpha squads? No. I'm not worried by Scurrgs, or Kihraxz, or K-Wings, or Mindlink Scouts, or anything else that I can see on the horizon either because history teaches us that they're almost never good enough.

Most of them only had 2 dice primaries, though. Y-Wings. Bombers. A-Wings. Z-95's. K-Wings. Even Scouts. There's a world of difference following up an alpha strike with 3 dice primaries over 2 dice primaries.

Just now, FTS Gecko said:

Most of them only had 2 dice primaries, though. Y-Wings. Bombers. A-Wings. Z-95's. K-Wings. Even Scouts. There's a world of difference following up an alpha strike with 3 dice primaries over 2 dice primaries.

Kind of. It's not like 3 dice primary weapons without loads of mods are ripping it up at present. And if you're talking Scurrgs you're talking dropping to 3 ships, right, so your alpha is down 25%. Getting sandwiched between two squads that don't work (alpha swarms and generic swarms)... I doubt there's much value in that hybrid.

34 minutes ago, MrMaggles said:

Old but still good at 1 shotting Ghosts and Decimators lol

Swarm - Advanced Alpha (100)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (25) - TIE Advanced
Cluster Missiles (4), TIE/x1 (0), Guidance Chips (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Minimum of 16 hits maximum of 24 on the alpha

I do like the Clusterf*** squad.

Cluster missiles remain a really, really good weapon for generics - because you can hit the gas, get your target lock, and not worry about a higher PS pilot (i.e. most of them ) then moving in to range 1. Plus the synergy with accuracy corrector is amazing and it makes the TIE advanced a lot less of a wimp once the missiles are away.

The downsides are:

• cluster missiles are just a 3-dice attack, meaning you have a fair chance of missing twice against some opponents (Concord Dawn Protectors, anyone). Agility 0 targets tend to die horribly, of course. Being able to erase a decimator without having to actually roll dice is very satisfying.
• I've come up against people who argue that if you use the accuracy corrector on your first attack, the whole "perform this attack twice only counts as one attack" means that "Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack" prevents you using it on the second attack. Worse, the people in question who think this are the regular TOs at events I go to, and I can't find anything explicit to support my view that it should work. I've stuck to proton rockets (which are also good on TIE/x1) because I can't be bothered having (and losing) the argument again.
• Firing cluster missiles requires a target lock, which means being at range 2 or less with no focus or evade tokens. TIE advanced are fairly tough for their cost, but not that tough compared to recent ships (compare to R2 Integrated Astromech T-70s, or Lightweight Frame bombers at the same price point), and being without defensive tokens means there's a pretty good chance that one of those fighters will die with missiles still in the tubes (that's the main problem with low PS alpha strikes and the reason people are obsessing over PS9-10 alpha strikes - unless the launch platform is something like a TIE Punisher or tougher, even a non-alpha strike list can blow one of them away before it fires).

Quote

Alpha striking alone won't get you anywhere. Even back in the original Torpscout days the torpedoes alone weren't getting it all done, just getting you far enough ahead you could grind it out with large base barrel-rolling turrets. The full alpha strike lists are so one-dimensional that they're not a serious proposition. Am I worried by Bomber alpha squads? No. I'm not worried by Scurrgs, or Kihraxz, or K-Wings, or Mindlink Scouts, or anything else that I can see on the horizon either because history teaches us that they're almost never good enough.

Agreed. Assuming your alpha strike squad manages to kill an enemy ship in the first pass, the question is "and then what" - if you've got a second spread of missiles (like Dengar/Tel) and/or decent primary weapons, you can do something useful. By comparison, a pair of 'sniper' bombers (Gamma Squadron Veteran/Crack Shot/Homing Missiles/Long Range Scanners) are great at removing that one TIE interceptor, but then.....basically are just an irritant.

I can see an argument for mixing missile types - putting a proton rocket armed TIE advanced intoa squad of Long Range Scanner armed TIE bombers means that the classic response to a missile squad of hit the gas and get to range 1 comes with its own risks.

For double-bonus, take Zertik Strom - making range 1 an even less appealing place to be for your opponent.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Hey, the Rebels got all that twice as well. In fact, the Rebels got a ship that is a turret, alpha striker, has great maneuverability for arc dodging, regenerates AND is probably the best bomber in the game.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good rant, shall we?

The K-wing doesn't the same maneuverability and as effective torpedo strike. Miranda could spend shields to bump her dice for torpedo attacks but in that case you are sacrificing shields, also for the slam you are sacrificing attacks. I guess if the argument who is better her or Biggs, Miranda wins, but comparing Miranda to the meta is like comparing Whisper to Han Solo.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

The thing is so many of these putative alpha strike options already exist (like the Bombers) and they haven't made many waves.

Alpha striking alone won't get you anywhere. Even back in the original Torpscout days the torpedoes alone weren't getting it all done, just getting you far enough ahead you could grind it out with large base barrel-rolling turrets. The full alpha strike lists are so one-dimensional that they're not a serious proposition. Am I worried by Bomber alpha squads? No. I'm not worried by Scurrgs, or Kihraxz, or K-Wings, or Mindlink Scouts, or anything else that I can see on the horizon either because history teaches us that they're almost never good enough.

It is because torpedo and missiles were so poorly designed. Not only did you need to set up an attack and televise it but you also had to sacrifice a dice modification for most of them. In most ways 3 dice primary attack with Target lock was better than a 4 dice attack without one. I would love to see alpha strike in the meta but I want to see them on TIE-Bombers and TIE Punishers, and even B-wings. Y-wings K-wing and Scurrg would be nice but they got the <turret> upgrade slot and everytime I flew Y-wings with torps/bombs I find I would have been better off dropping them and just keeping the TLT and spending points elsewhere.

I think that's a whole different discussion and not very helpful to get distracted like that when we're working with what we've actually got in the game.

Well, if alpha strikes are going to work, you can lay out the following core rules:

1. In order to achieve anything meaningful, your alpha strike needs to be able to kill a ship in one pass. You needn't be able to kill a decimator in one salvo, but I would suggest that 'good' starts at being able to remove a T-70 equivalent, and 'very good' at being able to remove a Jumpmaster. Realistically, I would say that means 3 fairly heavily modified 4-dice missiles.
2. With Dengar/Tel being a thing, you either need to be firing your missiles simultaneously (or ideally first) or need to be tough enough, or numerous enough, to do the above after taking the casualties you would expect from two fully modified torpedoes (as a short rule of thumb, assume one ship of your opponent's choice killed). That means either PS9+, 9+ hit points per chassis (oh, hello jumpmaster) or a minimum of 4 ships, ideally 5.
3. You can afford to give up long-term performance for a better alpha strike (as somewhat obviously that's the point) but you need to have at a minimum the realistic ability to hurt a focused agility 3 ship or a tank like a patrol leader after expending all your ordnance, or you will blow Fenn Rau/Soontir Fell to dust bunnies only to have the other ships in the squad pick your now useless ordnance trucks to pieces.
4. You need some means of getting your target lock whilst still being in the correct range band to use your missiles. This is the reason why Cluster Missiles remain tempting for generics despite arguably being the worst missiles, and why cruise missiles (which really limit your manoeuvre options prior to firing) are possibly not as good as first impressions suggest. Means of getting free target locks and/or free focus tokens abound (k4 droid, glitterstim, expertise, whatever), but you'll need one of them.
5. You need to be as free as possible from dependence on 'gimmicks' that fall over when a specific ship is killed, and as tolerant as possible of your opponent's gimmicks. Wes Janson can shoot off your target locks, VI/HSCP Chiraneau can shoot focus tokens off Deadeye targets, Countermeasures or Black One can remove them, hell, Youngster can give a TIE fighter (or TIE/fo, or TIE/sf) squad all Expert Handling.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

The thing is so many of these putative alpha strike options already exist (like the Bombers) and they haven't made many waves.

Alpha striking alone won't get you anywhere. Even back in the original Torpscout days the torpedoes alone weren't getting it all done, just getting you far enough ahead you could grind it out with large base barrel-rolling turrets. The full alpha strike lists are so one-dimensional that they're not a serious proposition. Am I worried by Bomber alpha squads? No. I'm not worried by Scurrgs, or Kihraxz, or K-Wings, or Mindlink Scouts, or anything else that I can see on the horizon either because history teaches us that they're almost never good enough.

History does say that, but it's also worth noting that these squads are delivering more firepower than alpha strike squads have historically been able to do. I'm interested to see if the extra early firepower is enough.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Firing cluster missiles requires a target lock, which means being at range 2 or less with no focus or evade tokens. TIE advanced are fairly tough for their cost, but not that tough compared to recent ships (compare to R2 Integrated Astromech T-70s, or Lightweight Frame bombers at the same price point), and being without defensive tokens means there's a pretty good chance that one of those fighters will die with missiles still in the tubes (that's the main problem with low PS alpha strikes and the reason people are obsessing over PS9-10 alpha strikes - unless the launch platform is something like a TIE Punisher or tougher, even a non-alpha strike list can blow one of them away before it fires).

I do agree, I also have a Punisher build that follows the same rules, just not as many shots...

Swarm - Punisher Alpha (100)

"Redline" (36) - TIE Punisher
Accuracy Corrector (3), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Black Eight Sq. Pilot (32) - TIE Punisher
Accuracy Corrector (3), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Black Eight Sq. Pilot (32) - TIE Punisher
Accuracy Corrector (3), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Minimum hits 12 max hits 18, feesable 1 turn kill on a Ghost or Decimator if the lucks on your side...

That's a nice squad. I'd been thinking about something similar - using three generics with Lightweight Frame.

Redline's ability might be overkill on cluster missiles with Accuracy Corrector and Guidance Chips (since it'll be largely redundant once the missiles have been fired), but with 3 ships instead of 4, I guess getting two three-hit-missiles off is more important (it's not like the unmodified -since you target locked rather than focused - lightweight frame dice actually adds that much durability, anyway).

On 7/8/2017 at 10:35 PM, Force Majeure said:

Am I doing it wrong? It came out to 101 points when I did it.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Expertise (4)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Targeting Synchronizer (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 101

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I've come to find that EM is nearly worthless on Tomax. I usually never get a 2nd missile/torp off before he is killed (sometimes I don't even get 1 off). I am going to start running with out it and see if he gets targeted less.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

I've come to find that EM is nearly worthless on Tomax. I usually never get a 2nd missile/torp off before he is killed (sometimes I don't even get 1 off). I am going to start running with out it and see if he gets targeted less.

I would have to disagree here. Targeting Syncronizer makes a huge difference in Tomax getting those missile shots (and whats the reason in running Tomax in the first place if he gets only one missile?)

Gonna throw out my Wedge/Horton/Cracken list, designed to murder Dengar/Tel:

Wedge: Adaptability + Proton Torps + R2-D2 + Chips

Horton: VI + R2-D6 + TLT + Plasma Torps + EM + Chips

Cracken: VI + Homing Missiles + Chips

It's already won a store champ in Ohio and supposedly another one somewhere else.

Starting to brainstorm Imperial variants now.

10 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Gonna throw out my Wedge/Horton/Cracker list, designed to murder Dengar/Tel:

Wedge: Adaptability + Proton Torps + R2-D2 + Chips

Horton: VI + R2-D6 + TLT + Plasma Torps + EM + Chips

Cracken: VI + Homing Missiles + Chips

It's already won a store champ in Ohio and supposedly another one somewhere else.

Starting to brainstorm Imperial variants now.

I think the Imperial Variant is PS11 Vader/Quickdraw. Depending on upgrades, you have up to the low 30s, but probably mid-20s available for the 3rd ship. It has an advantage that it's huge PS, and the main ships are good after the alpha strike.

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think the Imperial Variant is PS11 Vader/Quickdraw. Depending on upgrades, you have up to the low 30s, but probably mid-20s available for the 3rd ship. It has an advantage that it's huge PS, and the main ships are good after the alpha strike.

It seems the next highest PS threat is Dengar and Pal at PS9, if you want to run Vader/QD could you just run Adaptibility on both for PS10 and free up 2 points? Is there another reason to jump to 11? I guess in case Dengar does?

17 minutes ago, piznit said:

It seems the next highest PS threat is Dengar and Pal at PS9, if you want to run Vader/QD could you just run Adaptibility on both for PS10 and free up 2 points? Is there another reason to jump to 11? I guess in case Dengar does?

I think it's to get ahead of triple 10s, which the Empire can do easily. If there's an alpha strike race, Imperials can make 3 10s from a lot of pilots. Two 11s beats this, because they probably trade their 3rd low PS ship for an enemy ship of their choice, then close in to where Vader and Quickdraw are pretty solid in standard dogfighting.

The question, I think, is who that 3rd ship is. Pure Sabacc, Deathfire, a Gamma Vet, and Omega Leader are all obvious quality picks.

If you really really really need to shoot first (and don't much care after that):

HWK-290: Roark Garnet (19 + 6)
+ Twin Laser Turret (6)
+ "Chopper" (0)
A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19 + 6)
+ Swarm Tactics (2)
+ Cruise Missiles (3)
+ A-Wing Test Pilot (0)
+ Guidance Chips (0)
+ Deadeye (1)
A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19 + 6)
+ Swarm Tactics (2)
+ Cruise Missiles (3)
+ A-Wing Test Pilot (0)
+ Guidance Chips (0)
+ Deadeye (1)
A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19 + 6)
+ Intensity (2)
+ Cruise Missiles (3)
+ A-Wing Test Pilot (0)
+ Guidance Chips (0)
+ Deadeye (1)

23 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think it's to get ahead of triple 10s, which the Empire can do easily. If there's an alpha strike race, Imperials can make 3 10s from a lot of pilots. Two 11s beats this, because they probably trade their 3rd low PS ship for an enemy ship of their choice, then close in to where Vader and Quickdraw are pretty solid in standard dogfighting.

The question, I think, is who that 3rd ship is. Pure Sabacc, Deathfire, a Gamma Vet, and Omega Leader are all obvious quality picks.

Ok that makes sense. I was thinking you could run Epsilon Ace with TS at PS 12 for the locks, but if you're already at 11 with your missiles, you don't really need that. I suppose there's plenty of points there for Omega Leader instead

I'm thinking...

Quickdraw: Adaptability + FCS + Cruise Missiles + Lightweight Frame + Chips + Title

Vader: Adaptability + Cruise Missiles + ATC + Chips + Title

Tomax: VI + Cruise Missiles + EM + Chips

99 pts

Triple PS10, but has far better late game presence than the Rebel variant.

18 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

I'm thinking...

Quickdraw: Adaptability + FCS + Cruise Missiles + Lightweight Frame + Chips + Title

Vader: Adaptability + Cruise Missiles + ATC + Chips + Title

Tomax: VI + Cruise Missiles + EM + Chips

99 pts

Triple PS10, but has far better late game presence than the Rebel variant.

I think the Rebel PS 10 list comes in at 97 though so you'd want to drop some points (probably LWF on QD) to match that or they'll get first shot.

You could drop EM from Tomax to really go hard on the bid, but then I guess he would be totally useless after the first salvo. Ha, it already hurts not running Crackshot on him.

Don't think it's competitive or anything but this one sure looks fun:

QD Swarm (98)

"Quickdraw" (38) - TIE/SF Fighter
Veteran Instincts (1), Fire Control System (2), Cruise Missiles (3), Targeting Synchronizer (3), Special Ops Training (0), Guidance Chips (0)

Sienar Test Pilot (20) - TIE Adv. Prototype
Cruise Missiles (3), TIE/v1 (1), Guidance Chips (0)

Sienar Test Pilot (20) - TIE Adv. Prototype
Cruise Missiles (3), TIE/v1 (1), Guidance Chips (0)

Sienar Test Pilot (20) - TIE Adv. Prototype
Cruise Missiles (3), TIE/v1 (1), Guidance Chips (0)

Let a PS11 QD get off her missiles and then the little guys fire off theirs using her synchronizer. By some miracle one or two might even land target locks of their own for some modifications.

The Rebel list is 100 pts. I'm not going to be worried about bids until the PS wars actually start.