After reading The Long Price Quartet by Daniel Abraham I kind of envisioned the Shugenja / Kami relationship working like it did with the poets / Andant in those books. For anyone who hasn't read the series I strongly recommend it.

This thread is great for lore-noobs like me. Thank you everybody for your informative answers!

As a recent-convertee to the Dragon Clan, this next question is especially interesting: What is the difference between Shugendo and the type of magic/superpowers utilized by Monks, such as what is depicted in Mantra of Fire? Do they both draw their powers from the Kami, or do Monks work differently? It seems like the Shugenja are inspired by the historical Shinto priests (except with magic), while the Monks seem to have been inspired by the historical Buddhist monks (albiet mixed with the modern media trope of the "kung-fu monk")--but in L5R, do both groups practice the same religion? Or is Shinsei-ism mostly a Monk thing? Several people on here mentioned that Kami tend to follow around families, rather than individuals, because humans are too short-lived to be of interest. But if Monks get their powers from Kami, why do the Kami listen to them, since anyone from a peasant to a high-ranking member of a Samurai clan can become a monk?

Dragon Monks draw quite a lot from the chinese "monks with superpowers" fantasy. Basic idea is that with harmony and enlightenment, you unlock superpowers inside you. Monk powers are from the inside, kami spells are from the outside, basically.

5 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

This thread is great for lore-noobs like me. Thank you everybody for your informative answers!

As a recent-convertee to the Dragon Clan, this next question is especially interesting: What is the difference between Shugendo and the type of magic/superpowers utilized by Monks, such as what is depicted in Mantra of Fire? Do they both draw their powers from the Kami, or do Monks work differently? It seems like the Shugenja are inspired by the historical Shinto priests (except with magic), while the Monks seem to have been inspired by the historical Buddhist monks (albiet mixed with the modern media trope of the "kung-fu monk")--but in L5R, do both groups practice the same religion? Or is Shinsei-ism mostly a Monk thing? Several people on here mentioned that Kami tend to follow around families, rather than individuals, because humans are too short-lived to be of interest. But if Monks get their powers from Kami, why do the Kami listen to them, since anyone from a peasant to a high-ranking member of a Samurai clan can become a monk?

In L5R, humans are technically beings of Tengoku, because they were born from the mixture of Lord Moon's blood and Lady Sun's tears. They're mortal because they live in Ningen-do, the mortal realm, but they do still contain a bit of divinity. Monks draw on that tiny spark of the divine within themselves to power their kiho.

Regarding religions, there are three within Rokugan: Fortunism (which includes worship of the fortunes, dragons, kami, sun, and moon), Shinseism, and ancestor worship. These religions aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, almost everyone follows all three to a certain degree, although most people have a favorite.

Shugenja are technically priests of all three, though in practice they tend to favor Fortunism, since that's where they get their spells.

The stereotypical monk is Shinseist, though there are Fortunist monks as well. It depends on what order they belong to, and the line can get blurry with some orders.

Supposedly, ancestor worship is just as important as the other two religions, but mechanics for it have always been sadly lacking outside the Kitsu family. Hopefully FFG will do a better job with that.

An interesting note is that in the RPG, the monk schools get defined as either Fortunist or Shintao, with there being about twide as many Fortunist schools as Shintao. But there are also two for different religions: Diamond Sutra and Fudoism. I suppose the Spider Monks are technically a branch of Fortunism, as are the Dragon Monks, but I think the Asako would count as either Shintao or something completely different.

The different levels of spirits are the biggest challenge for most people to wrap their heads around. There are large and powerful spirits, but the kami that the shugenja work with are normally the basic elemental kami. ( Small k for the small normal spirits as opposed to the capitalized K for the Kami which are the greater spirits like the clan founders.).

It requires a lot of training to be good at it, and your bloodline will often determine how easy it is for you, and/or your power level. Which leads us to the most unusual point.

The descendants of the 10 Kami, the ones that fell to earth and started the major clans, are not the families that are good at magic. The humans are better at it. (Shiba and Isawa are the most prevelent example, but none of the Kami lines are the premiere shugenja.

You know, if they decided to call the founders something else instead of Kami, that would be really helpful. And to make use of mikokami more frequently.

Or to call kami something different.

As I understand it:

kami - little elemental spirits that exist in everything, kinda animistic.

mikokami - big elemental spirits of important things, like Earthquake Fish Bay, mostly things that would appear on maps

Fortunes - more or less powerful spirits that exist in the heavens and like to interfere (more like polythestic gods), although they rarely include "kami" in their name like Kaze-no-kami (or should that be Kami-no-kaze?)

Kami - the 8 (or more) children of the Sun and Moon, who fell to Earth.

Yeah, the word kami is pretty close to the word spirit for us.

Spiritual, spirits, the holy spirit, the spirit of freedom etc.

To me the most interesting use of the word kami is from the mongol invasion of japan, where japan was saved by a huge storm. The storm was a 'divine wind' and so it was called "kami'kaze". How that word later became suicide pilots in world war 2 is a strange progression to me.

10 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

Yeah, the word kami is pretty close to the word spirit for us.

Spiritual, spirits, the holy spirit, the spirit of freedom etc.

To me the most interesting use of the word kami is from the mongol invasion of japan, where japan was saved by a huge storm. The storm was a 'divine wind' and so it was called "kami'kaze". How that word later became suicide pilots in world war 2 is a strange progression to me.

As far as I know it kind of goes : The "Divine Wind" sank the ships of our enemies who were trying to invade the islands of Japan. Our pilots will emulate the Divine Wind by sinking the ships of our enemies who are trying to invade the islands of Japan.

To note, peasant revolts can find magic, since maho is accessible to everyone (as opposed to whatever mechanism limits magic to shugenja). It is a path to power that is not restrictive, beyond social norms.

Also, there are ronin shugenja, who I would guess are more likely to be born that way than be cast out, since shugenja are pretty rare, most families would not discard such an asset.

On 7/8/2017 at 8:29 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

After reading The Long Price Quartet by Daniel Abraham I kind of envisioned the Shugenja / Kami relationship working like it did with the poets / Andant in those books. For anyone who hasn't read the series I strongly recommend it.

I will look into those.

I recently read the Furies of Calderon. Which was very Roman, with elemental Kami. A giant mountain Kami, River kami fed on blood. Where Kami find and bond with people. And the strongest become major leaders.

Jim Butcher can tell very fine tales.

13 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Butcher can tell very fine tales.

Yes I enjoyed the tales of Tavi Even more than I have enjoyed the Dresden Files. Don't get me wrong I really like those too but he just keeps getting more and more powerful so the suspense of Dresden actually being in jeopardy is somewhat lost.

For my money Brandon Sanderson is the best of the newer fantasy writers. I haven't come across anything of his I didn't enjoy. Even his various young adult books and kindle exclusives are really entertaining.

Patrick Rothfuss is also another author high on my list. Name of the Wind is excellent.

8 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Yes I enjoyed the tales of Tavi Even more than I have enjoyed the Dresden Files. Don't get me wrong I really like those too but he just keeps getting more and more powerful so the suspense of Dresden actually being in jeopardy is somewhat lost.

For my money Brandon Sanderson is the best of the newer fantasy writers. I haven't come across anything of his I didn't enjoy. Even his various young adult books and kindle exclusives are really entertaining.

Patrick Rothfuss is also another author high on my list. Name of the Wind is excellent.

First Rothfuss got me back into reading books. The way he puts words together is great. He is my very favorite and one day he will finish his third novel.

Jim Butcher does some good stuff. Dresden does have a bit of power creep, but the early books felt so depressing, and it felt like every little pixie was a god compared to the humans that run the planet. I think he needs to find a place somewhere in between. That being said I will read everything that man writes.

My wife has gotten to work with Sanderson on several occasions, and for our first valentines day planned a group lunch with him and a few other authors like Dan Wells. It was at that point of my life that I realized I could not have married better woman in my wildest dreams.

1 minute ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

My wife has gotten to work with Sanderson on several occasions, and for valentines day planned a group lunch with him and a few other authors like Dan Wells. It was at that point of my life that I realized I could not have married better woman in my wildest dreams.

I'll be your Valentine.

I have a total man crush on Sanderson. When my uncle got me into good fantasy books he told me the 'magic' systems must be fresh and have rules/limits. I geek out big time over how Sanderson managed to write so much always following those two simple guidelines that so many authors seem to forget.

14 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Yes I enjoyed the tales of Tavi Even more than I have enjoyed the Dresden Files. Don't get me wrong I really like those too but he just keeps getting more and more powerful so the suspense of Dresden actually being in jeopardy is somewhat lost.

For my money Brandon Sanderson is the best of the newer fantasy writers. I haven't come across anything of his I didn't enjoy. Even his various young adult books and kindle exclusives are really entertaining.

Patrick Rothfuss is also another author high on my list. Name of the Wind is excellent.

Man I love these three authors! The Stormlight Archives and Codex Alera are probably my favorite two book series right now, and I really enjoyed The Name of the Wind. I'm also a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson's podcast Writing Excuses, since I'm a wannabe aspiring author and he and his co-hosts have some really great advice.

One book I've been reading that people on this forum might enjoy is Across the Nightingale Floor, by Lian Hearn. It's a fantasy novel with court intrigue, magic and fighting, all set in a pseudo-Japanese world not unlike Rokugan (although Hearn skips out on using the gratuitous Japanese--which is a plus for me).

Back to something relevant to the main topic: yes, the magic in the Codex Alera series reminds me alot of Shugenja. The furies seem to take alot less begging than the kami to do stuff, though--in Alera, all but one person just has furies that start following and listening to them at a certain age, whereas for Rokugan it seems like kami are a little hard to corral into performing a task.

14 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'll be your Valentine.

I have a total man crush on Sanderson. When my uncle got me into good fantasy books he told me the 'magic' systems must be fresh and have rules/limits. I geek out big time over how Sanderson managed to write so much always following those two simple guidelines that so many authors seem to forget.

Honestly, making good and original magic systems is one of the hardest parts of worldbuilding for me. I'm in awe of Sanderson's ability to come up with so many unique and interesting ones!

1 hour ago, Mandalore525 said:

Man I love these three authors! The Stormlight Archives and Codex Alera are probably my favorite two book series right now, and I really enjoyed The Name of the Wind. I'm also a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson's podcast Writing Excuses, since I'm a wannabe aspiring author and he and his co-hosts have some really great advice.

His co-host Dan Wells is an L5R fan. And I recommend Night of blacker Darkness and I am not a serial killer toe everyone. (that last one was made into a movie on Netflix last I checked)

I will have to read those books now.

1 hour ago, Mandalore525 said:

Back to something relevant to the main topic: yes, the magic in the Codex Alera series reminds me alot of Shugenja. The furies seem to take alot less begging than the kami to do stuff, though--in Alera, all but one person just has furies that start following and listening to them at a certain age, whereas for Rokugan it seems like kami are a little hard to corral into performing a task.

I like the comparisons. And the idea of maybe trying to earn the loyalty of a mighty mountain kami would be epic.

2 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

I'm also a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson's podcast Writing Excuses, since I'm a wannabe aspiring author and he and his co-hosts have some really great advice.

Not to derail the topic too much, but thanks for mentioning this. I'm not big on podcasts, but this sounds like one I definitely want to check out.

9 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Not to derail the topic too much, but thanks for mentioning this. I'm not big on podcasts, but this sounds like one I definitely want to check out.

It is one of my favorites. Brandon Sanderson is amazing. Dan Wells wanted to write epic fantasy but all of his best stuff is pretty much horror. (he is a big L5R fan) and Howard Writes a deep well thought out military satire web comic.

After a few podcasts in I was hooked.

6 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

His co-host Dan Wells is an L5R fan. And I recommend Night of blacker Darkness and I am not a serial killer toe everyone. (that last one was made into a movie on Netflix last I checked)

I will have to read those books now.

I like the comparisons. And the idea of maybe trying to earn the loyalty of a mighty mountain kami would be epic.

I had no idea Dan was an L5R fan, that is so awesome! I've thought about reading I am not a Serial Killer for a while now--I don't usually do horror, but his comments on the podcast are so interesting that they've piqued my interest.

Hey, Dan Wells has written tie-in fiction for Warmachines before. If FFG starts publishing L5R novels again, maybe they should hit him up. I bet he'd be good at writing from the POVs of dark characters--maybe someone Shadowlands-aligned?

6 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

I had no idea Dan was an L5R fan, that is so awesome! I've thought about reading I am not a Serial Killer for a while now--I don't usually do horror, but his comments on the podcast are so interesting that they've piqued my interest.

Hey, Dan Wells has written tie-in fiction for Warmachines before. If FFG starts publishing L5R novels again, maybe they should hit him up. I bet he'd be good at writing from the POVs of dark characters--maybe someone Shadowlands-aligned?

In that case, they should do a Scorpion shadow brand story instead of a shadowlands tale, but thats just my opinion.

6 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

In that case, they should do a Scorpion shadow brand story instead of a shadowlands tale, but thats just my opinion.

Well as more than one of his books are about a heroic teenager with psychopathic tendencies I would bet he would write well for scorpion.

1 hour ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Well as more than one of his books are about a heroic teenager with psychopathic tendencies I would bet he would write well for scorpion.

lol or Ise Zumi haha