I have several questions about Shugenja?

Where does Shugenja get their power?

- If it isn't family why are there no peasant rebellions with elemental powers?

- or if it is only passed on by blood what happens when an Isawa mistress has an unclaimed kid?

- or does it have some kind of secret techniques? Which sounds pretty boring to me when it comes to wizard priests.

- Is it more like Pokémon? You just find a river, impress it and then you are a water Shugenja for the rest of your life? (I kinda like the last one)

EDIT* - I would like to hear other people's questions about Shugenja as well. As I don't think I ever quite 'got' them.

11 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

I have several questions about Shugenja?

Where does Shugenja get their power?

- If it isn't family why are there no peasant rebellions with elemental powers?

- or if it is only passed on by blood what happens when an Isawa mistress has an unclaimed kid?

- or does it have some kind of secret techniques? Which sounds pretty boring to me when it comes to wizard priests.

- Is it more like Pokémon? You just find a river, impress it and then you are a water Shugenja for the rest of your life? (I kinda like the last one)

The ability to speak with the kami runs in bloodlines (the shugenja familes).

Though not every child has the gift.

Exceptt for the Isawa every family has a favored element.

It's also along the lines of impressing the kami. If I understand correctly the shugenja would more ask the kami spirits to do what they wanted, and then the kami may or may not heed their prayers depending on that individual shugenja's connection with them. (I /think/ this is correct. Please let me know if I'm wrong!)

5 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

The ability to speak with the kami runs in bloodlines (the shugenja familes). Thoug not every child has the gift. Exceptt for the Isawa every family has a favored element.

That is mostly what I have heard, but families intermary. Like a powerful multi elemental Shugenja would make for a great marriage into any clan. After 1000 years, enough Agasha and Isawa have married, then why would Agasha have a problem with all the elements?

1 minute ago, YasukiKaito said:

It's also along the lines of impressing the kami. If I understand correctly the shugenja would more ask the kami spirits to do what they wanted, and then the kami may or may not heed their prayers depending on that individual shugenja's connection with them. (I /think/ this is correct. Please let me know if I'm wrong!)

This is that point where setting hits mechanics. Generally the kami dont say no

3 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

It's also along the lines of impressing the kami. If I understand correctly the shugenja would more ask the kami spirits to do what they wanted, and then the kami may or may not heed their prayers depending on that individual shugenja's connection with them. (I /think/ this is correct. Please let me know if I'm wrong!)

This is what I understood from the RPG, but if that is the case than why would one family be better at it than another?

Just now, Devin-the-Poet said:

That is mostly what I have heard, but families intermary. Like a powerful multi elemental Shugenja would make for a great marriage into any clan. After 1000 years, enough Agasha and Isawa have married, then why would Agasha have a problem with all the elements?

Shugenja COULD come from ANY family, but it tends to be rare outside established lines

Next question.

Do they just try to befriend nearby Kami? Can a Shugenja have a Kami who follows them around?

Like the Kitsu are pretty big on their ancestors, and I bet they have some favorites.

2 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

This is what I understood from the RPG, but if that is the case than why would one family be better at it than another?

Who can fathom the will of the heavens?

14 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Next question.

Do they just try to befriend nearby Kami? Can a Shugenja have a Kami who follows them around?

Like the Kitsu are pretty big on their ancestors, and I bet they have some favorites.

In rpg terms there is an advantage called Friendly Kami...yes it follows you around.

The Kitsu have an advanced school for ancestor talking , the Sodan Senzo

Shugenja get their power from the kami. Not precisely through bloodlines, but because kami have no concept of mortality. To the kami, the shugenja they follow today is the same shugenja they followed a thousand years ago.

This is why shugenja are, if not always the most traditional (though the Kitsu are exceptionally so, even among the Lion), then the most resistant to change.

It depends largely on who is writing the fiction. There are a few ways it can go depending on what the writer wants to have happen. L5R uses all of these, but the RPG uses 1 more, while the card game uses 2 more, and 3 is mostly a Lion thing... but they are all workable in L5R.

1) Kami - The best way to think of Kami is that they are spirit-creatures who are anchored in some way to the world, like a river spirit. They may not be anchored, and Kami is a broad term - for example every clan was founded by a Kami. These spirits can be entreated to perform tasks for the Shugenja, or anyone really. In this way a Shugenja is more like a priest though - observing rites and giving offerings, probably building up loyalty or at least familiarity with specific Kami who they can work with more easily.

2) Elements - Air, water, earth, fire, and void elements make up everything in the world. You can sense and summon these elements to do your bidding. In this way a Shugenja is more wizerdly and in command. This is the most common representation as it is the most straight forward and understandable as the elements themselves are very straight forward where eastern "spirits" or "kami" are vast declarations encompassing many variations.

3) Ancestors / Fortunes - These are beings that existed before and continue to influence the world rather than join the wheel of reincarnation. The Fortunes are accessible to anyone, even peasants, but are basically a type of Kami and Shugenja would know more about how to interact with them, and entreat their service. These Shugenja are more like oracles who specialize in working with the beings that were once of this earth, where the Kami / Priestly type deal more with creatures who were never of this world. Ancestors can be accessed by any descendant, but there is typically a bigger connection between them that brings out the bond.

Shugenja are secretive with their practices and notes, and the Shugenja families have refined their technique over a thousand years beginning with some Kami literally among them. This is why most Shugenja schools have some afinity, exclusivity, and also limited access compared to the Phoenix who are more universal. The Phoenix have had the best minds and put a broad focus as a priority, having their council of 5 elemental masters. The other clans typically had a purpose to their practice, so they specialized in what worked best for them.

Peasants and even Bushi can interact with Kami, fortunes, and ancestors but they wouldn't be trained in the secrets of how to properly give offerings, and be heard by these spirits. They wouldn't be in control as much as they would be at the mercy of the Kami or spirit they called upon. This can still help them, but not always.

The elements are basically off limits to non-shugenja because they are more of a wizardly thing.

And so we come to down the 'shugenja problem'

The way they are described in the setting doesn't always match how they are portrayed in the story, or the rpg rules

21 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Peasants and even Bushi can interact with Kami, fortunes, and ancestors but they wouldn't be trained in the secrets of how to properly give offerings, and be heard by these spirits. They wouldn't be in control as much as they would be at the mercy of the Kami or spirit they called upon. This can still help them, but not always.

The problem isn't being heard - anyone can potentially be heard. The kami even follow some bushi around when their destiny is particularly interesting. There's a fiction where Mirumoto Mareshi is observed by a shugenja, described as having a swirl of interested kami around them - and that's still not enough to cause spells to happen. The problem is that the kami ignore anything that might be a request from anyone that doesn't have the full attention of the kami.

That said, I kinda hope new lore changes the whole deal with kami and shugenja.

*Just realised you're probably talking about things like when Kaimetsu-uo called on Osano-wo for vengeance, and a lightning bolt blasted the gate of the Phoenix castle Osano-wo's killer was hiding in.

55 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

The problem isn't being heard - anyone can potentially be heard. The kami even follow some bushi around when their destiny is particularly interesting. There's a fiction where Mirumoto Mareshi is observed by a shugenja, described as having a swirl of interested kami around them - and that's still not enough to cause spells to happen. The problem is that the kami ignore anything that might be a request from anyone that doesn't have the full attention of the kami.

That said, I kinda hope new lore changes the whole deal with kami and shugenja.

*Just realised you're probably talking about things like when Kaimetsu-uo called on Osano-wo for vengeance, and a lightning bolt blasted the gate of the Phoenix castle Osano-wo's killer was hiding in.

That is exactly what I mean - both parts. Kami are around everyone, but if you tell a Kami to do something it will probably ignore you, like we ignore a fly across the street. Shugenja are versed in how to properly be entreat and be heard by Kami, to bring them to action. A Kami could listen to anyone though - so they could take a liking to a bushi, follow them around, and maybe even interfere. The interference could be favorable or it could make things more challenging, depending on what that Kami wants. It's not following the Bushi's direction but simply acting as it wishes. Same with Kaimetsu-uo, except Osano-wo (or some other Kami) obviously liked Kaimetsu-uo and wanted to help on its own accord.

The difference is that a Shugenja is going to understand what the Kami wants, and how to get it to act for them.

Of course - this is all based in fiction, and each writer will have their own artistic perspective.

This sounds like a great question for L5R Live, though I'd imagine they will likely wait to get into when they preview Phoenix.

I think the different interpretations of Shugenja over time has resulted in an altogether weaker character type when compared to the well defined Bushi, Courtier or even Monk character types. This is why I hope FFG clearly defines what a Shugenja is from the outset, and adheres to the limitations of that definition throughout. It's the only way we are going to move away from the ambiguity that plagues the title.

In the interests of adding to the discussion, here is what a Shugenja is to me:

A Yamabushi following the path of Shugendo (low magic abilities). "Yamabushi are mountain ascetic hermits, who, according to Japanese mysticism, are believed to be endowed with supernatural powers" (Wiki). Sohei and Temple Monks were also Yamabushi. Shugendo practitioners were Yamabushi too, but differed in that their path delved more into magic and divination. That can be analogous to what they are in Rokugan: Warrior priests that focus more on magic and divination than their sohei and monk counterparts. To be clear, they don't cease to be warrior priests. They just specialize in learning what appears to be magic.

Yamabushi can fight (have martial ability), it's a key point to be made. "There has also been cross-teaching with samurai weaponry and Yamabushi's spiritual approach to life and fighting" (Wiki). Now, this is quite different from what we see in the CCG. In the CCG, Shugenja are portrayed as overpowered wizards, effectively. Rarely is a Shugenja shown to be reliant on mundane weaponry like a Katana, Tetsubo or Yari. Isawa Hochiu with a Katana of Fire was a welcome revelation at the time because it meant that he had skill with a blade AND he was a Shugenja. Good design. Even so, the “bushi” aspect of Shugenja has been marginalized or dismissed altogether.

Part of the issues in the CCG stem from the allocation of traits to the Dragon's Yamabushi (followers) and the Spider Sohei. In historical Japan, Shugendo Monks, Sohei and Temple Monks all fell under the umbrella of the Yamabushi archetype. In the CCG, Shugenja, Sohei and Monks are distinctly different... and X cannot be Y. The designers emphasized the Shugenja's supernatural aspects and diminished their bushi aspects. Ending in something more akin to a wizard than a warrior priest.

Lastly, lowering the power level of Shugenja is perhaps the best thing that can happen for that archetype long-term, IMO. As it stands, they are difficult to relate to in any meaningful sense. Theory I have: Generally speaking, there is an inverse relationship between the power level of a protagonist and the quality of the story's antagonist. It's very difficult to write villains for god-like heroes. The natural answer is to create god-like villains, further removing both character types from the reader's world, or to create hyper-foils a la Lex Luthor to Superman. But why not lower the power level of the protagonist in order to introduce a more versatile and grounded Rogue's Gallery? To me, this is the strength of Batman and his villains versus other comic titles. Most are human and therefore more 'real' to us.

'Ground' Shugenja in mundane trappings, allow them to employ normal weapons, reduce their ability to move mountains, and I have little doubt that fans would understand and identify with their archetype like never before.

Just my thoughts.

Part of the confusion is caused by how the term kami (in all its various capitalization) is thrown around to describe a VAST multitude of beings. To simplify there are 3 tiers of “kami”

At the top is the Big KAMI, the cosmic forces of Sun, Moon, the Dragons, and at the lower end is the KAmi that founded the nation of Rokugan. These beings are sentient as we know them (though not always sane or rational) and can heed or dismiss anyone they please and there is frak anything you can do about it; Shugenja or no.

Below them are the various Fortunes that are Kami who vary between major and minor entities that were all once humans that were 'ascended' to their position by Divine Favor, and can interact with mortals much easier than the bigger KaMi bur are limited in their action based on their station and can be even killed (go Team Spider Monks!). Again anyone can deal with them if they manage to make a connection to them in some way Shugenja or Muggle.

Lastly there are the minor kami (the Ten-Thousand Things) that make up the mortal world and outnumber everyone because they literally are EVERYTHING!

The rocks below your feet? kami.

The puddle after a rainstorm? kami.

The pants your hopefully wearing? kami.

They are everywhere, but they are not sentient as you or I, and they are strange on the best of days. They speak with voices normal people cannot hear and their thoughts are limited by their nature and surrounding (and for more permanent kami the history of the location). These are the kami that Shugenja are 'almost' exclusive to and are the 'source' of their great power and foolish deeds.

I say 'almost' because Monks are also capable of hearing and communicating with the kami too, just in a more limited (or perhaps more correctly, more specialized) fashion.

To answer questions from the top,

1. Generally any non-samurai that starts showing signs of being a Shugenja is usually swept up by local Shugenja (or Monks) and dragged off for proper training...or killed if your in the Lion territories. The Phoenix in general are sometimes called in to take in these wayward souls and take their uncomfortable existences away to be trained to not fall to the forces of corruption *cough**cough*

The real kicker is that that the samurai-caste tend to go well out of their way to create some absurd explanation as to why these peasants are so blessed as be able to hear the kami (unlike 80% of the samurai caste), otherwise the lower class would know that the kami don't care in the slightest in your Social Status. So in short, when these people show up, hilarity ensues.

Also, Inquisition. No one expects the Phoenix Inquisition!

2 and 3. Its mostly based on blood but is just as often the whims of the kami (hence the random non-samurai Shugenja), but essentially the most basic part of being Shugenja is determined by birth. After that the specialization in an element is likely based on the First Voice you hear from the kami.

Its unlikely that any newly awakened Shugenja are hearing all the various elements at once otherwise it would probably sound like This ; and they would never want to hear the blasted things ever again.

Mentality has a major impact on which type of kami your likely to hear First in your life, what kind of person you really are will tell which kami make a connection to you.

A person of great passion and energy (and probably volatile emotions) is going to draw in Fire kami; while one of great patience and stoicism is likely going to grab the Earth's attention. ...and so on.

The reason the Isawa are better than everyone else is that they have Shugenja of every element present in their growth process and so other experienced Shugenja make sure that those youths know and understand that there is more than one voice among the kami.

...its sort of like the Clans/Families themselves really. Each one generally aims to pass on certain traits and mindsets onto the newer generations in the hope that they will be able to emulate their ancestral fore-bearers, which generally doesn't encourage deviance to the standard.

10 minutes ago, Magus Black said:

Also, Inquisition. No one expects the Phoenix Inquisition!

They wear blaze orange and yellow. Difficult to miss.

5 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

- If it isn't family why are there no peasant rebellions with elemental powers?

Because peasants are screened for shugenja power and if they have the stuff then they will be instantly adopted by the local shuggie family. No questions asked.

Also, when a peasant shows up at your castle and levels the entire place with an earthquake then the happening what you have at hand is not a peasant rebellion. A peasant rebellion is when Lee #5421 and his friends start making trouble with sharpened sticks. Recognizing the difference can save your life and all that.

6 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

- or if it is only passed on by blood what happens when an Isawa mistress has an unclaimed kid?

- or does it have some kind of secret techniques? Which sounds pretty boring to me when it comes to wizard priests.

- Is it more like Pokémon? You just find a river, impress it and then you are a water Shugenja for the rest of your life? (I kinda like the last one)

This stuff has been portrayed fairly inconsistently, but here's the way I interpret it:

Kami will only listen to people who have impressed them. Occasionally a peasant will do this, but it's rare. More often, it's someone from the samurai caste, usually someone who's been trained in how to appropriately speak to the kami... i.e. someone from a shugenja family.

It takes more than just training, though. The kami see humans as extremely temporary creatures, and they usually don't consider it worth the effort to get to know an individual human. Instead, they tend to gravitate to the names that have impressed them in the past. Names like Isawa, Agasha, Kuni, etc. The shugenja families have built up an enormous amount of goodwill with the kami over the years, so the kami are more likely to listen to their children.

Though it was never explicitly stated, I think this is why the Kitsuki family rarely produce shugenja, despite being descended from the Agasha. The kami have no particular attachment to the name "Kitsuki", and since the Kitsuki focus on things other than magic, they lost the kami's interest.

In contrast, the Moshi are heavily focused on spiritual matters, and when they split off from the Isawa they put a lot of effort into maintaining the kami's favor, so they stayed shugenja despite the name change.

So in short, it's a combination of all three of those bullet points (though more by name than by blood).

15 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

I have several questions about Shugenja?

Where does Shugenja get their power?

- If it isn't family why are there no peasant rebellions with elemental powers?

- or if it is only passed on by blood what happens when an Isawa mistress has an unclaimed kid?

- or does it have some kind of secret techniques? Which sounds pretty boring to me when it comes to wizard priests.

- Is it more like Pokémon? You just find a river, impress it and then you are a water Shugenja for the rest of your life? (I kinda like the last one)

EDIT* - I would like to hear other people's questions about Shugenja as well. As I don't think I ever quite 'got' them.

15 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Next question.

Do they just try to befriend nearby Kami? Can a Shugenja have a Kami who follows them around?

Like the Kitsu are pretty big on their ancestors, and I bet they have some favorites.

Here's my understanding and opinon of the topics:

Being a Shugenja is a combination of talent and training, not unlike many endeavours. Without the talent, you can train all you want and not be able to speak to the kami. Without training, you probably come across as lucky, since teeny kami want to do what you want, but you have no idea how to phrase things the correct way.

This training, in my mind, covers the 'language' and the 'etiquette' of the kami. It's as much "when you are addressing a minor kami of fire, be sure not to have a waterskin nearby" as "on the 4th day of each month you should give a small offering to your local stream" or "here is how you marry two samurai."

In terms of the talent, talented peasants do sometimes get picked up by Samurai and adopted. They are also sometimes recruited into the brotherhood or just live out their life with a bit of a weirdness magnet going on.

There was an advantage in one (or more?) editions of the RPG called Friendly Kami. In that instance, the shugenja does have a kind of pet kami that gives them bonuses for that element. In module I1, it mentions that the kami in a Scorpion shugenja's rooms have been great friends with her, and won't respond to questions about her goings on.

Evil Portents introduced an ashigaru shugenja. Did AEG ever say what her story was? (As in, an in-universe story; not simply, "we wanted to make the Ashigaru deck more viable".)

I believe what you're referring to here are Elemental kami. Think of these as the lowest or basic manifestations of the Elemental dragons. Elements (or Dragons) bless and favor a family or a bloodline. Sometimes some individuals are reincarnated outside of their family (or as ronin) and retain their spiritual connection to the kami. Or maybe a parent did something (sometimes unintentionally) that made a kami really happy, blessing their newborn.

There are peasant shugenja. They are not trained and nurtured young, so their gift is wasted, unless discovered by samurai. In a few exceptional cases, their gift is very strong and they can get some competence, and become ronin shugenja. But this should be quite rare. Also, untrained shugenja risk to bring the atention of kansen upon themselves, who will tempt them towards maho.