Greetings all,

I never played the former L5R card game, although for a time it was strong in my area.

Card games we currently play are SW Destiny and the Final Fantasy TCG. Both generally clock in at about half an hour or less (FF).

My group is interested in this LCG new version of 5 Rings, but a few concerns:

How complex does this seem to those of you who are experienced with the LCG format.? A few of us are more than intimidated. Mainly because

we play other games so heavy rule and FAQ following may be difficult.

How quickly do you think game length will get, with experience, under an hour if at all? We like rotating friends in different

matches. If I have 2 hours free for one game + set up, I'm personally inclined to play Age of Sigmar or 40K.

Any insight? I know I'm intimating that this game is not for me, but we are really, really curious about it and some want to buy-in if these concerns

are manageable.

Please do tell. Thanks.

It's definitely going to be more complex than SW Destiny (I don't play FF TCG). So far the complexity is at the same level as their other LCGs like Netrunner or Conquest. A reasonable expectation would be approximately 40 minutes for a game (which is normal for FFG LCGs) so unless you are both fast playing the game I doubt you'll finish in under a half an hour.

I don't see any harm in splitting a core box to give it a shot. It does sound like it will be heavier than the games you already play, but I don't think it will be any more complicated to learn and teach than 40K 8th edition rules so if you can swing that then you can certainly swing this...

From my experience it takes around 40 to 50 minutes for one game to be fully played out, of course the time can range greately in some cases but this is the standard for my playgroup. The setup takes takes maybe 5 minutes if you include mulligan. So in two hours you will be able to play 2 full games up to three if one of them ends very quick.

In the beginning the games will be much longer though so watch out for that, for first few games there will be a lot of analysis paralysis

It is more complex than SW Destiny and less complicated than Netrunner if it tells you anything

I think with enough experience the game length could be trimmed to 30 mins. I played my first two games last night with a deck I was specifically aiming to be slower and more controlling and we finished two games in about an hour and 40 mins.

Keep in mind this included some time for actual deck building and friendly discussion on the game in general as this was also the first time I had met the person I was playing with. Most of the delay was in my end since it was my first time with this version of the game, and there were a couple times I was just shuffling the cards in my hand hoping the Kami would bless me with better cards because all my lines of play sucked. 20+ years of experience with the old version just doesn't translate. If you have any experience with other FFG card games you might be better prepared to learn L5RLCG.

I recommend getting proxies and practicing instead of using TTS or OCTGN or whatever online version of the game is out there. The pace is better with real cards. Give a couple run throughs and I'd expect two experienced players, especially that are familiar with one another, could complete a game in under 30 mins......unless a player is specifically playing a slow grindy deck, which, doesn't look to be viable, at least not without all the cards spoiled.

Many thanks to everyone for the replies. I loved CoC, LoTR and Netrunner. used to play all three. A complexity somewhere in-between sounds perfect.

My Girlfriend and I talked... this is going to be, "our" game, played at our pace and enjoyed together on date nights. She's a gamer at heart, just new to the better stuff, and sharper than me so it should be a hit. Something special just for us.

My group, a varied and eccentric bunch, play a total of about 15 different dedicated systems between us. It's a bit insane. I don't think many will jump in at this point, as we all have a lot to keep up with, including painting and hobby. If some do, they can enjoy the leagues at our local FLGS.

With that said, LCG's are perfect for two people who will buy the expansions together on their own terms and time. She's really excited about it. :-)

I appreciate the support you guys.

Cheers and game on,

PS. Now we're haggling over what factions we want to claim. Good times.

Are any of you going to try this with a spouse or partners? Or is this more of a consideration for your already vested LCG groups?

12 minutes ago, Blutsteigen said:

PS. Now we're haggling over what factions we want to claim. Good times.

Are any of you going to try this with a spouse or partners? Or is this more of a consideration for your already vested LCG groups?

It's not an easy game, so I wouldn't play it with someone who had no previous experience with deep games (LCGs, complex boardgames etc.): it would take a very long time for them to learn and adapt, and it could be very frustrating in the meanwhile. That being said, the rules are not too complex, so if one is willing and has some experience, I don't think it wouldn't be too difficult for them to learn the game.

I've studied L5R thus far a bit more, I think she'll be fine. She's a demo assistant at our library game night. She's even beginning to enjoy minis games quite a bit. We'll be learning together, so it will take some patience. These LCG's are not always without their bumps.

It took me a while to get the Lord of the Rings one down pat.

Thanks for the reply.

If she has some experience then go for it, absolutely. The theme is very enticing for the female audience as well, so that's a big boon.

My girlfriend and I started playing LotR LCG together a couple years ago. It was very very tough, despite her loving the setting, so we finally quit playing together. However, now that she got interested in L5R, her previous experience helped her a lot and she's enjoying it.

My wife got into L5R a little bit with me while still under AEG, around Ivory. She has virtually zero gaming experience, so it was a slow process, and I definitely tanked a few games to try and give her some encouragement at the beginning. Once she started to pick it up more it was a lot of fun to play with her at our local store or at home. I imagine she'll pick it up with me again once the game releases. I would say if you manage your expectations going in (much easier said than done) it can be a great time!

This is an interesting one.

While I wouldn't personally say that the game is massively complex, I would say it's got a lot of depth.

It doesn't have weird and specific wordings or timings to remember or get caught out by like in Ashes or Magic, and it's got a pretty simple structure. Dynasty phase, fate/draw phase, 2 opportunities for conflicts, refresh, repeat. Not very complicated. There are simpler games, but there are way harder ones too. I would say the LOTR LCG is more complex than L5R. I didn't get on with Netrunner and would say that's more(needlessly) complicated as well. But I didn't really enjoy that game and am an old L5R head. Old L5R was way more overcomplicated too.

Thing is, while the structure is simple and actually somewhat restrictive(1 kind of attack allowed per round), there is a lot of room for serious strategic depth. Lots of choices without a 'wrong' answer as such, but with many that are more right than others, and their status as "more right" choices depending on a lot of shifting variables.

So I'd say about a 6/10 for complexity but an 8-9/10 for depth. There will be a lot of learning over the first couple dozen games! Whether that sounds like your cup of tea or like a long road to hell is up to you lol. But for me that right there is what makes me think this is a game where players that are good will consistently perform better than others, which in my opinion is a great thing.

15 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

It doesn't have weird and specific wordings or timings to remember or get caught out by like is Ashes

I'm with you on this, I bought the core for Ashes shortly after it came out, but between a lack of local players and the ridiculous wording/timing/rules lawyering atmosphere it created, I never bought a single expansion...especially since it seemed each expansion brought with it a host of new complications and weird card interactions.

8 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I'm with you on this, I bought the core for Ashes shortly after it came out, but between a lack of local players and the ridiculous wording/timing/rules lawyering atmosphere it created, I never bought a single expansion...especially since it seemed each expansion brought with it a host of new complications and weird card interactions.

I can understand that. I enjoy the game and personally I've gone in on everything they've put out so far and have a healthy little group in London, but I'm used to those kinds of ridiculous little rules from playing yugioh at a high level for a long time. It's a definite barrier for entry for people though as you regularly need an experienced player to highlight why you can't block multiple attacking units but you can guard them... And how you can discard an Anchornaut before the first turn has actually happened and all sorts of silly little rulings.

Compared to that L5R seems downright straightforward. Saying that, the rulebook actually coming out might introduce some crap lol. But so far it seems like what you see is mostly what you get. The tricky part is making the 'correct' decisions consistently. They've got the depth/complexity balanced nailed perfectly for this game in my opinion. It's very refined. Never even mind all the thematic and artistic elements that get elegantly woven into the game.

1 hour ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I can understand that. I enjoy the game and personally I've gone in on everything they've put out so far and have a healthy little group in London

I take it you mean London as in the UK (not London, Canada or something - as always seems to come up when I type 'London' into the BBC Weather search box...). I was hoping to convince a couple of fellow Conquest refugees to join me in chrcking out Ashes round about the turn of the year, but we heard that there was no meta in the South East: Sounds like we were wrong, although sadly its probably too late for me now as L5R is (hopefully) only 2-3 months away...

As for complexity vs depth, I think you have it right. I'm hoping for a high level of depth with reasonable - but not excessive - complexity. I'm hoping they'll avoid some of the 'legal loophole' type stuff that have been features of their previous LCGs (e.g. complicated and contentious action windows, infinite loops a la Shrieking Exarch, using one shield to cancel a shedload of Indirect Damage on a Snotling token, etc). On the other hand I hope it is pitched somewhat higher on the complexity scale than SW Destiny...

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

I take it you mean London as in the UK (not London, Canada or something - as always seems to come up when I type 'London' into the BBC Weather search box...). I was hoping to convince a couple of fellow Conquest refugees to join me in chrcking out Ashes round about the turn of the year, but we heard that there was no meta in the South East: Sounds like we were wrong, although sadly its probably too late for me now as L5R is (hopefully) only 2-3 months away...

As for complexity vs depth, I think you have it right. I'm hoping for a high level of depth with reasonable - but not excessive - complexity. I'm hoping they'll avoid some of the 'legal loophole' type stuff that have been features of their previous LCGs (e.g. complicated and contentious action windows, infinite loops a la Shrieking Exarch, using one shield to cancel a shedload of Indirect Damage on a Snotling token, etc). On the other hand I hope it is pitched somewhat higher on the complexity scale than SW Destiny...

Yeah man, I came across them looking for War Within events. There's a Facebook group called "ashes: - the phoenix born of londinium" but at the very least a very nice man runs a monthly tournament at Dark Sphere in Lambeth, and they meet up during the week. Personally I only attend the tournaments. And I want to try and get a scene going in Reading, where I live. But like you say, L5R is a couple of months away lol and truth be told I kind of got into Ashes purely because hype for this game was making me want to get into a card game for the first time in years. And I wouldn't mind taking a crack at being a TO in an L5R tourney too! I want the scene for the game to be healthy and good and there be loads of events all over =](That I can win.)

And yeah, I think it would be a big step backwards of awkwardly placed and contentious cards become a thing in this game. So far, everything I have personally seen slots neatly into a well put together game lol.

I don't see how Shrieking Exarch could create an infinite loop. At worst, it's a chain reaction (the reaction can possibly trigger off itself), which is bad enough, admittedly. If you want a real infinite loop, go for Blood Angel Veteran vs The Mask of Jain Zar (it's in each player's best interest to continue triggering their own interrupt and the outcome depends on which is triggered last). The shielding example is because of the way indirect damage works: you can only assign just enough to kill each (potentially affected) unit and the excess is lost long before shielding.

Now, there are going to be weird interactions as soon as the timing framework is complex enough (interrupts are a prime candidate).

I think when most players get familiar with the rules games will come in around 35 minutes or so. Also power level is lower now than it will be a year after release, which generally makes for faster games

5 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

I don't see how Shrieking Exarch could create an infinite loop. At worst, it's a chain reaction (the reaction can possibly trigger off itself), which is bad enough, admittedly.

The fun really starts when 2 or 3 of them are in play at the same time, controlled by the same payer! Perhaps 'infinite loop' was not the right term (The Jain Zar/Blood Angels Vets example you gave is much better). You are also quite right about Indirect Damage, it just took numerous attempts to finally get my head around it...

The point of all this i guess is that from what we've seen of L5R so far things seem to have been 'tightened', e.g. Actions and Reactions can only be triggered once per turn unless otherwise stated, and the use of the "Max once" wording to deal with multiple copies of an ability being in play at the same time.

To be honest, I dislike the fact that "Limit once per turn" is in the rulebook (as opposed to being on the cards, limits help keep things sane).

52 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

To be honest, I dislike the fact that "Limit once per turn" is in the rulebook (as opposed to being on the cards, limits help keep things sane).

Since the limit once per round is universal though, it seems redundant to print that on every card. Better to save that space for things applicable to the specific card, like the "max once" restrictions.

What I'm liking here is that this game looks to have a high density of meaningful decision points with non-obvious answers.

That's a great thing for making a game experience that is based around skill, and it looks to be a complex enough model with enough "emergence" to make that skill as much about intuition and practice as it is about knowing the odds or having exhaustive card knowledge (though I'm sure those things will help too).

All in all, this looks to be shaping up to be a really, really great game.

15 hours ago, Caldera said:

The fun really starts when 2 or 3 of them are in play at the same time, controlled by the same payer!

Oh, you mean like our game last week?

I admit, when you've got a couple of Exarchs at the win planet, and you're up against a deck that doesn't rout or do spike damage, it's pretty much game over...

I'm glad that locally we're seeing so much interest in Lo5R. I'm optimistic that it's going to have a bigger scene than Conquest did.

4 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Since the limit once per round is universal though, it seems redundant to print that on every card. Better to save that space for things applicable to the specific card, like the "max once" restrictions.

It might be universal in L5R LCG, but it's not universal in any other LCG. There are other ways to limit abilities than a blanket "once per round" limit (especially if that limit only applies to actions, not reactions and interrupts - not sure if it's the case). Costs are a good alternative, because they can be varied: spending fate or honor, bowing or discarding cards...

1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

It might be universal in L5R LCG, but it's not universal in any other LCG. There are other ways to limit abilities than a blanket "once per round" limit (especially if that limit only applies to actions, not reactions and interrupts - not sure if it's the case). Costs are a good alternative, because they can be varied: spending fate or honor, bowing or discarding cards...

It only really matters if it's universal in L5R. Also, these actions on some cards do have costs already attached, like Doji Gift giver, vengeful beserker. They also have conditions to meet. introducing a blanket cost to use actions is incredibly limiting in the game we have now, and would require an entire revamp to make it workable.

A blanket rule like that in a rulebook is fine with me. It's what a rule book is for, here are the things you can and cannot do in the game.