Poe probably does not need direct attention anymore. Fast Hands was a key piece in his strategy, and now that one of his auto-resolve tools is gone, he'll be forced to leave dice out more often. No one is wrong saying that he will still be present or that Poe/Maz will still be prevalent, but it will incentivize removal. Control Decks just became much more viable, because Poe can't just roll and resolve repeatedly, and Rey can't chain Fast Hands into resolving Force Speed.

This errata was handled very well. Keep it simple, and don't kill what's good. Just bump it back down in line with other powerful decks. The meta will shift and be in a much better place by GenCon and Nationals. This deck is still good, but many other decks can more easily compete with it.

2 hours ago, Engine25 said:

Poe probably does not need direct attention anymore. Fast Hands was a key piece in his strategy, and now that one of his auto-resolve tools is gone, he'll be forced to leave dice out more often. No one is wrong saying that he will still be present or that Poe/Maz will still be prevalent, but it will incentivize removal. Control Decks just became much more viable, because Poe can't just roll and resolve repeatedly, and Rey can't chain Fast Hands into resolving Lightning Reflexes.

This errata was handled very well. Keep it simple, and don't kill what's good. Just bump it back down in line with other powerful decks. The meta will shift and be in a much better place by GenCon and Nationals. This deck is still good, but many other decks can more easily compete with it.

Exactly. It powers down Poe-Maz because Maz is weak on hit points and is now the key to Poe since Poe can't use Fast Hands anymore. Kill Maz and the deck goes out of whack.

Am I right in thinking vader still can get fast hands thru sith holocron in vader/raider

1 hour ago, Plymouthdean86 said:

Am I right in thinking vader still can get fast hands thru sith holocron in vader/raider

No. Holocron is blue ability upgrades.

He, and indeed everyone else, could still get it through "cargo hold" battlefield though.

14 hours ago, Engine25 said:

Poe probably does not need direct attention anymore. Fast Hands was a key piece in his strategy, and now that one of his auto-resolve tools is gone, he'll be forced to leave dice out more often. No one is wrong saying that he will still be present or that Poe/Maz will still be prevalent, but it will incentivize removal. Control Decks just became much more viable, because Poe can't just roll and resolve repeatedly, and Rey can't chain Fast Hands into resolving Force Speed.

This errata was handled very well. Keep it simple, and don't kill what's good. Just bump it back down in line with other powerful decks. The meta will shift and be in a much better place by GenCon and Nationals. This deck is still good, but many other decks can more easily compete with it.

Wrong. Poe/Maz is still just as lethal. Dont get me wrong, it helps, but it hurt the decks that combat it just as much like VR or Han/Snap (not this one as much cuz u can still play on Han). A lot of the deck is just purely based on Maz rolling focus and chaining Poe into specials, as well as claiming Emps Throne Room. The errata helps the few times you had FH on Poe and rolled that 16% to get the special on a die. But it still consistently will make Poe specials go off. Dont forget the lovely Planetary Uprising to go with it.

Again, Poe will still get errata to "Vehicle Only", itll just be once GenCon is over and EaW comes out and Poe gets more Vehicle tools to use.

~D

I think people are misinterpreting the errata as a nerf to Poe/Maz, which I don't think is the intent. It's changing a (potentially) abusive card for the long term health of the game, not fixing short term balance issues. All of the errata so far are bug fixes, not balance patches.

4 hours ago, Abyss said:

I think people are misinterpreting the errata as a nerf to Poe/Maz, which I don't think is the intent. It's changing a (potentially) abusive card for the long term health of the game, not fixing short term balance issues. All of the errata so far are bug fixes, not balance patches.

Except that FFG specifically called out Poe/Maz in their article explaining the errata:

"Putting a Fast Hands on Poe Dameron meant that control decks could not effectively target Maz Kanata in an effort to control the tempo of the game, as Poe could resolve his dice by himself. As such, we are now limiting Fast Hands to Yellow characters only. This keeps the card viable in a lot of decks but opens up more counter play against Poe Dameron/Maz Kanata decks."

Seems clear that the intent is to nerf Poe/Maz.

On 7/9/2017 at 2:32 AM, Engine25 said:

Poe probably does not need direct attention anymore. Fast Hands was a key piece in his strategy, and now that one of his auto-resolve tools is gone, he'll be forced to leave dice out more often. No one is wrong saying that he will still be present or that Poe/Maz will still be prevalent, but it will incentivize removal. Control Decks just became much more viable, because Poe can't just roll and resolve repeatedly, and Rey can't chain Fast Hands into resolving Force Speed.

This errata was handled very well. Keep it simple, and don't kill what's good. Just bump it back down in line with other powerful decks. The meta will shift and be in a much better place by GenCon and Nationals. This deck is still good, but many other decks can more easily compete with it.

My guess is that Poe will have to switch to different methods: Cunnings came as most obvious solution played to prevent that removal.

48 minutes ago, Docile said:

Except that FFG specifically called out Poe/Maz in their article explaining the errata:

"Putting a Fast Hands on Poe Dameron meant that control decks could not effectively target Maz Kanata in an effort to control the tempo of the game, as Poe could resolve his dice by himself. As such, we are now limiting Fast Hands to Yellow characters only. This keeps the card viable in a lot of decks but opens up more counter play against Poe Dameron/Maz Kanata decks."

Seems clear that the intent is to nerf Poe/Maz.

But its not a direct nerf at Poe/Maz bc it effects so many other decks including VR, FN w/yellow, and Han/Snap (not as much cuz u can still play it on Han, but no longer on Snap).

So all its doing is putting those cards further back as well so Poe/Maz can control them just as easily to the same degree.

In the end, Poe/Maz will still have to be dealt with by making Poe "Vehicle Only". If they errata Maz to 1 die instead of 2 or just 2 of her dice, then they may go that route.

In the end FFG screwed up in redesigning Poe. Theyll have to admit to later by errataing him back to his original design. Not just bc it wins games, but bc it severly limits design when a single card can use EVERY dice card.

~D

Because the Poe/Maz deck is the ONLY issue with Destiny, right? Get out of here. Take Han for example, Play a card with Ambush and Han gains a shield. Good ability as it is allowing Han to stay in the fight a little longer as shields should. Now throw in Vibroknife and shields no longer matter. Please, all of this crying about Poe/Maz but yet let villain character builds run away with tournament after tournament and not a word. To make matter worse with Vibroknife all it has to do is stay in your dice pool and all melee damage done is unblockable....hmmm, which side has a lot of melee? Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, Baby Vader (all who happen to be either BE a/or near tier 1 decks.). But that does not help them that much...does it? Take away Vibroknife and find out. It sure did not hurt them but it sure takes away the use for shields and people are happy with that?

But the game is SO imbalanced with Poe/Maz and what it can do. Once again, take Poe/Maz out and what chance does a hero deck stand to win a big tournament? Please, someone post the winning numbers of villain decks and hero decks. NOT even close but where is FFG to balance this out? Right, MAYBE Empire At War we will see some much needed help. Sorry, third set in and you have already taken out shields which was there in the first place to help a character live longer in the battle and now you want me to believe that the hero side will get this much needed help...I do not believe it and this game has went to you better play a villain deck if you want to win a big tournament.

And why is no one talking about how inconsistent Poe/Maz is in the rolls? No? How many times has Poe/Maz won a big tournament? But that doesn't matter it is just to good. Like how a four character villain beck was before Poe/Maz kicked it to the he curb? Where is the hero four character deck? Yea, not so much.

3 minutes ago, johnwiser said:

Because the Poe/Maz deck is the ONLY issue with Destiny, right? Get out of here. Take Han for example, Play a card with Ambush and Han gains a shield. Good ability as it is allowing Han to stay in the fight a little longer as shields should. Now throw in Vibroknife and shields no longer matter. Please, all of this crying about Poe/Maz but yet let villain character builds run away with tournament after tournament and not a word. To make matter worse with Vibroknife all it has to do is stay in your dice pool and all melee damage done is unblockable....hmmm, which side has a lot of melee? Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, Baby Vader (all who happen to be either BE a/or near tier 1 decks.). But that does not help them that much...does it? Take away Vibroknife and find out. It sure did not hurt them but it sure takes away the use for shields and people are happy with that?

But the game is SO imbalanced with Poe/Maz and what it can do. Once again, take Poe/Maz out and what chance does a hero deck stand to win a big tournament? Please, someone post the winning numbers of villain decks and hero decks. NOT even close but where is FFG to balance this out? Right, MAYBE Empire At War we will see some much needed help. Sorry, third set in and you have already taken out shields which was there in the first place to help a character live longer in the battle and now you want me to believe that the hero side will get this much needed help...I do not believe it and this game has went to you better play a villain deck if you want to win a big tournament.

And why is no one talking about how inconsistent Poe/Maz is in the rolls? No? How many times has Poe/Maz won a big tournament? But that doesn't matter it is just to good. Like how a four character villain beck was before Poe/Maz kicked it to the he curb? Where is the hero four character deck? Yea, not so much.

I agree with your premise, that for the most part, the villains are much more powerful than the heroes. Although Poe/Maz is the best deck right now, the next three (the ones you listed) are villains.

However, Vibroknife, like Poe, just shows why dice control is so important. Why do you think so many of the events they've designed have to do with removing dice? Vibroknife is not fun, but it's still just one dice. It can be controlled rather easily.

Also, at this point I have to point out that Palpatine is actually ranged damage, not melee, and I've never seen a Palp deck that contains Vibroknife.

22 minutes ago, johnwiser said:

Because the Poe/Maz deck is the ONLY issue with Destiny, right? Get out of here. Take Han for example, Play a card with Ambush and Han gains a shield. Good ability as it is allowing Han to stay in the fight a little longer as shields should. Now throw in Vibroknife and shields no longer matter. Please, all of this crying about Poe/Maz but yet let villain character builds run away with tournament after tournament and not a word. To make matter worse with Vibroknife all it has to do is stay in your dice pool and all melee damage done is unblockable....hmmm, which side has a lot of melee? Vader, Palpatine, Kylo, Baby Vader (all who happen to be either BE a/or near tier 1 decks.). But that does not help them that much...does it? Take away Vibroknife and find out. It sure did not hurt them but it sure takes away the use for shields and people are happy with that?

But the game is SO imbalanced with Poe/Maz and what it can do. Once again, take Poe/Maz out and what chance does a hero deck stand to win a big tournament? Please, someone post the winning numbers of villain decks and hero decks. NOT even close but where is FFG to balance this out? Right, MAYBE Empire At War we will see some much needed help. Sorry, third set in and you have already taken out shields which was there in the first place to help a character live longer in the battle and now you want me to believe that the hero side will get this much needed help...I do not believe it and this game has went to you better play a villain deck if you want to win a big tournament.

And why is no one talking about how inconsistent Poe/Maz is in the rolls? No? How many times has Poe/Maz won a big tournament? But that doesn't matter it is just to good. Like how a four character villain beck was before Poe/Maz kicked it to the he curb? Where is the hero four character deck? Yea, not so much.

Just run removal and guardian.. Vibroknife is good but FAR from OP. Hopefully the next set will bring some ballance. Already, without have seen 90% of EaW, I can envision Sabine as t1.

6 minutes ago, Bigulf said:

Just run removal and guardian.. Vibroknife is good but FAR from OP. Hopefully the next set will bring some ballance. Already, without have seen 90% of EaW, I can envision Sabine as t1.

Sabine will be a nightmare with Holdout Blaster! Basically, every round, before you activate her, you play a Holdout on her and then use your extra action to resolve a whole bunch of dice. Yet more "non-interactive NPE" like people are always complaining about! Then you overwrite the Holdout with something else so that you can play it again next round!

26 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Sabine will be a nightmare with Holdout Blaster! Basically, every round, before you activate her, you play a Holdout on her and then use your extra action to resolve a whole bunch of dice. Yet more "non-interactive NPE" like people are always complaining about! Then you overwrite the Holdout with something else so that you can play it again next round!

Its not just going to be hold out blaster, think Infamous literally any Yellow weapon could have Ambush, even thinks like thermal detonator which she can play for cheaper or thermal paint which she can play for 1 from her discard then infamous and bam ambush on them as well, DL-44's remove a dice and ambush resolve, Ya Sabine is going to be kinda bonkers I am starting to be of the opinion that no 20 point character is going to keep up with her on hero side. And you can even do things like resolve or smuggling to have reasons to discard weapons so that you can just get them from the discard since playing them from your hand is meh.

How many big tournaments has Poe/Maz won compared to a villain deck? I understand what people are saying but I think it is overblown as the Poe/Maz deck does not roll consistently and why it may be in the top four decks does not win many big tournaments. No way has any Poe/Maz build won or is winning as many big tournaments as villain decks have...not just one villain deck but how many villain decks? Vader/Raider, Baby Vader/Kylo, Uck Bar/9s/Trooper, Palpatine.

What ever happened to the Destiny we were told of? The game of you take a turn, I take a turn. Now games are over in 5 rounds or less, 10 minutes or less. Shields helped but to think Vibroknife is not broken is sad and shows just how split players are. So you have the casual player and the tournament player and no in between. Best to title this Star Wars Villains as this is getting further and further away from the game of Destiny we were told that we were getting in that of hero vs villain with a you take a turn, I take a turn mechanic. Get ready, because there will be a many more cards that will see "fixes" and heaven help it if the hero side should get a solid deck because as it stands it looks like villain players shout loudest when a good hero deck hits the field but has zero problems that villains can run four character decks and the best decks in the game the last two sets. Glad this game is balanced otherwise it may turn people away...

1 hour ago, johnwiser said:

How many big tournaments has Poe/Maz won compared to a villain deck? I understand what people are saying but I think it is overblown as the Poe/Maz deck does not roll consistently and why it may be in the top four decks does not win many big tournaments. No way has any Poe/Maz build won or is winning as many big tournaments as villain decks have...not just one villain deck but how many villain decks? Vader/Raider, Baby Vader/Kylo, Uck Bar/9s/Trooper, Palpatine.

Poe/Maz wins almost exactly as many as the biggest three villain decks combined:

http://www.thechancecube.com/meta/2017-store-championships-meta-report/

Two more things:

Nobody benefits from Vibroknife as much as Rey. I should know, I frequently wreck everyone with ObiWan/Rey, Luminara/Rey, and other pairings of weaker characters with Rey, just because Rey is so strong.

FFG doesn't seem to be listening to all the insatiable cries for nerf. Ammo Belt was to fix a thematic flaw, not a meta-dominating problem, and Fast Hands hurts Vaider and Unktroopers just as much as it hurts Poe/Maz.

So yeah, this game is still what it said it was, a CCG. You have to collect more cards to build a better deck, because a weaker deck probably won't even be able to touch a top-tier deck. People are building villains because they like the villains better. The cult of Darth Vader continues to grow, and most of the new Marvel comics have their only plot line being Vader killing people, so no wonder most of the good players are playing him. I still root for the heroes, so I still play them. I'll let you know when I stop ever winning games.

20 minutes ago, johnwiser said:

How many big tournaments has Poe/Maz won compared to a villain deck? I understand what people are saying but I think it is overblown as the Poe/Maz deck does not roll consistently and why it may be in the top four decks does not win many big tournaments. No way has any Poe/Maz build won or is winning as many big tournaments as villain decks have...not just one villain deck but how many villain decks? Vader/Raider, Baby Vader/Kylo, Uck Bar/9s/Trooper, Palpatine.

What ever happened to the Destiny we were told of? The game of you take a turn, I take a turn. Now games are over in 5 rounds or less, 10 minutes or less. Shields helped but to think Vibroknife is not broken is sad and shows just how split players are. So you have the casual player and the tournament player and no in between. Best to title this Star Wars Villains as this is getting further and further away from the game of Destiny we were told that we were getting in that of hero vs villain with a you take a turn, I take a turn mechanic. Get ready, because there will be a many more cards that will see "fixes" and heaven help it if the hero side should get a solid deck because as it stands it looks like villain players shout loudest when a good hero deck hits the field but has zero problems that villains can run four character decks and the best decks in the game the last two sets. Glad this game is balanced otherwise it may turn people away...

#1 I dont argue with you the imbalance this game has to Hero/Villain decks

#2 Poe/Maz doesnt have to win every tournament, but currently its winning 25-30% of all SCs and is placing high %s in top 4-8 in all major tournaments. Thats too much, thats not a balanced game as what youre clamoring for earlier.

#3 Poe limits future game design and will be erratad

~D

On 09/07/2017 at 11:09 AM, HoodieDM said:

The errata helps the few times you had FH on Poe and rolled that 16% to get the special on a die. But it still consistently will make Poe specials go off.

Just a slight correction here. I know that Poe Special is dreadful, but Fast Hand was not useful on Poe only to resolve the Special, but also both his ranged side. If Poe rolled a Range side, he resolved it for 2/3 damages. So that's not 16% chance but 50%, on each die. What Poe did was roll both dice and resolve one of those 3 faces. Now you could either remove the second one, or leave it for Maz to trigger it or the Battlefield (if the Throne room was the battlefield). It made some removal cards almost useless against Poe. Deflect was now a dead card in your Blue deck, unless he rolled 2 ranged side or did not get Fast Hand (without Fast Hand, you can now do 2 damage to Maz or Poe while removing his 3 range side, that's huge). It also made Guardian ability almost useless since Poe could resolve his range side before you had the chance to activate your Guardian. I once played a game with my Phasma deck Vs a Poe deck where both my generic were full health when Phasma died because he always resolved his damage side before I could remove them. Was it not for Fast Hand, I would have probably win this game.

TLDR: Poe is more than just his Special.

#2. If a deck were placing and winning 25% of the time you don't necessarily have a balance problem that needs addressing. Provided the other 75% is made up of 6-8 different decks you'd have in that moment a fairly balanced game by CCG standards. Poe/Maz was only over preforming by a bit.

#3. Every ability restricts future design space. You have no less then half a dozen things in this game that put a hard cap on a number of other options. In making Poe they decided between his ability, which creates a novel deck archetype, and being able to create super high cost supports and upgrades with huge numbers. Considering those things are likely to be useless or OP, I doubt they mind locking off the design space for the length of Poe's legality.

Agreed, @Red Castle!

Elite Poe has a 30.56% chance of getting a special on one of his dice, but he has a 55.56% chance of getting either the focus or the 3 damage, and a 75% chance of getting the special, 3, or 2 ranged damage. So losing Fast Hands on Poe is actually huge!

The other thing I want to point out is that a number of people have been saying Poe needs to get errata'ed. I don't think this is likely, for three reasons.

The first reason is that Poe is a well-liked character. He has his own comic book series, people know who he is, and he'll only become more well-known and well-liked as more movies (like the Last Jedi) are released. So FFG is probably happier that he's dominating the meta than a more obscure character like Bala Tik, for example.

The second reason is that he's a legendary. All four errata'ed cards so far have in common that they cost less than $5. If they nerf Poe, they'll be destroying a really expensive card and probably losing a lot of disgruntled customers. Granted, it's a give and take, and they don't want people to leave because Poe is too powerful, but I don't think they want to have to go the route of X-Wing (power creep > unbalanced meta > characters people like from the movies are nowhere to be seen > psychotic amounts of errata). A lot of people complained about Palpatine being nerfed in X-Wing because he's so expensive, and they feel like FFG just stole their money.

The third reason is that, as others have said, Poe isn't the problem. He didn't take over the Awakenings meta, or even really show up back then. The problem in this deck is Maz. My guess? If they still need another errata of Poe/Maz (which they probably won't consider doing until they see the results from the next world tournament) it'll be about Maz.

Edit: ninja'ed! I definitely would add the great points @ScottieATF made to this list!

11 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

The third reason is that, as others have said, Poe isn't the problem. He didn't take over the Awakenings meta, or even really show up back then. The problem in this deck is Maz. My guess? If they still need another errata of Poe/Maz (which they probably won't consider doing until they see the results from the next world tournament) it'll be about Maz.

Best proof of that point is that nobody is complaining about Poe/Rey. Only complaint we hear is with Poe/Maz.

But before making any new changes, let's see where those 2 erratas lead us. I think that making Fast Hand Yellow only will change the meta more than some players seems to think.

3 hours ago, Kieransi said:

FFG doesn't seem to be listening to all the insatiable cries for nerf.

I hope this continues to be the case, and that errata, when they must come at all, come only after careful deliberation. If they listened "to all the satiable cries for nerf", they'd be issuing errata left and right.

I agree that fixing Fast Hands IS going to hit Poe-Maz harder than some think. It basically means a "kill Maz" approach cripples the fast resolve ability of the deck and also makes the dice vulnerable to dice control - nerfing Fast Hands boosts dice control decks nicely.

I think now we will see more eJyn decks where she is paired with another Yellow.

20 minutes ago, Joelist said:

I think now we will see more eJyn decks where she is paired with another Yellow.

Yeah!!! Since Maz is so good, I might want to try out eJyn/Maz now! That might be a wicked good control deck.

Im not going to quote everyone, but all good points.

But at the end of the day, Poes 2/3 range dmg is no different than Vader, Luke, Baze, Han, emoAnakin, etc for FH. So it was all the same playing field. The issue is his special side.

And yes, design is limited on his special. EVERY dice card that can go into a Hero deck can be used by him and FFG sucks at playtesting, otherwise, theyd of seen Poe/Maz problems long ago.

~D