The defectors should never have been allowed to keep that name. The ones who stayed with the Dragon should have been the Agasha; the ones who went to the Phoenix should have founded a new family. Making the Phoenix Agasha and the Dragon Tamori is really just the cherry on top of the mishandling of that plot.

28 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

The defectors should never have been allowed to keep that name. The ones who stayed with the Dragon should have been the Agasha; the ones who went to the Phoenix should have founded a new family. Making the Phoenix Agasha and the Dragon Tamori is really just the cherry on top of the mishandling of that plot.

The thing is, the precedent of the family keeping their name when changing clans had already been set centuries ago, by the Yasuki.

Also, the change of Hitomi from being an actual villain made the Agasha who refused to obey her idiots rather than principled.

2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The thing is, the precedent of the family keeping their name when changing clans had already been set centuries ago, by the Yasuki.

I also consider that to be a mistake.

At first, I thought the Asako didn't fit the courtier profile. But then when you think about it, being monks puts them in between shugenja and non-shugenja folk, giving them more understanding of both religious and political perspectives. And monks are quite insightful. So yes to Asako courtier monks. (Although the Asako have a shugenja school, too.) Isawa Air shugenja can make good courtiers. The Shiba fit the yojimbo profile more and not much on the courtier side. Though the Asako already did potions, the Agasha were more advanced at it, so having no Agasha puts the Phoenix at some disadvantage.

4 minutes ago, daimaru said:

At first, I thought the Asako didn't fit the courtier profile. But then when you think about it, being monks puts them in between shugenja and non-shugenja folk, giving them more understanding of both religious and political perspectives. And monks are quite insightful. So yes to Asako courtier monks. (Although the Asako have a shugenja school, too.) Isawa Air shugenja can make good courtiers. The Shiba fit the yojimbo profile more and not much on the courtier side. Though the Asako already did potions, the Agasha were more advanced at it, so having no Agasha puts the Phoenix at some disadvantage.

It does not follow that Monks would have an inherently deeper religious and political understanding than Shugenja.

In the CCG of Old5R, it made more sense to me that the Isawa, a family so overtly focused on peace, should have Courtier * Shugenja to push their goals through the political arena. Their Air Shugenja are tailor made for it (as you have pointed out). A Void Shugenja at court would _very_ interesting to me. As would be Fire Tensai that can resolve duels themselves...

I think the Asako are fine as a pure monk support faction. Something that mirrors the Togashi family, in their pursuit of enlightenment and martial skills. A template would be Asako Masamichi (Golden Arm Sect).

23 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I also consider that to be a mistake.

Can you elaborate as to why?

41 minutes ago, Anemura said:

In the CCG of Old5R, it made more sense to me that the Isawa, a family so overtly focused on peace, should have Courtier * Shugenja to push their goals through the political arena.

That's quite a worldly view you have there, Anemura.

41 minutes ago, Anemura said:

It does not follow that Monks would have an inherently deeper religious and political understanding than Shugenja.

"One of the differences between shugenja and monks is their study of the Tao - while a shugenja studies the Tao for its lessons on wisdom and knowledge of man, a monk studies the Tao to understand the riddles of enlightenment. A shugenja is not typically seeking to be enlightened, only to exist in harmony with his fellow man."

The great thing about the lcg version of L5R are the generics and the ability to get around the family problems that got along with it. All the development really has to worry about are the very few unique personalities and where they fit in.

1 hour ago, daimaru said:

Though the Asako already did potions, the Agasha were more advanced at it, so having no Agasha puts the Phoenix at some disadvantage.

Since Agasha potion manufacture basically disappeared after they joined the Phoenix? Not really.

If the Agasha do end up defecting again, I hope they go somewhere where their talents are actually put to use.

1 hour ago, BitRunr said:

That's quite a worldly view you have there, Anemura.

"One of the differences between shugenja and monks is their study of the Tao - while a shugenja studies the Tao for its lessons on wisdom and knowledge of man, a monk studies the Tao to understand the riddles of enlightenment. A shugenja is not typically seeking to be enlightened, only to exist in harmony with his fellow man."

Source for the quote?

Are you making the argument that Monks are inherently more religious than Shugenja because they derive different things from the Tao?

Does this also apply to Politics vis a vis Shugenja and Monks?

Worldly view? Having the Isawa involved in Politics makes sense, I think.

I think the first "defection" was Yogo's at the Dawn of the Empire. The reasons are complicated, but Asako Yogo, the husband of the original Asako, defected to the Scorpion and got to form his own family back then.

1 hour ago, Anemura said:

Source for the quote?

Way Of The Phoenix (iirc) & The Way Of Shinsei (98).

1 hour ago, Anemura said:

Are you making the argument that Monks are inherently more religious than Shugenja because they derive different things from the Tao?

I'd argue that shugenja are in an odd place, but I don't think that's in question. On the one hand they're supposed to exist for harmony between the samurai of Rokugan, and need be somewhat worldly in maintaining that. On the other, the intermediary for things that normal people can't understand, and deny worldliness for the betterment of their connection to the kami.

I do believe monks are more likely to place themselves at the forefront of harmony or conflict with non-humans, angered beasts, and anything that might be termed religious without being focused solely on samurai, though.

On 7/8/2017 at 1:38 AM, Suzume Tomonori said:

But more on topic, does any clan really NEED more than three families?

Unicorn with less than six families would be a shame. Hoping the Horiuchi form around the same point in the timeline.

8 hours ago, Anemura said:

Can you elaborate as to why?

While I am not Kinzen... those who forsake their oaths of fealty without the lord's express permission or orders have no claim on the lineage that did serve faithfully.

When Mirumoto Sozen was allowed to swear fealty to the Crab, he wasn't still "Mirumoto Sozen." He was Hida Sozen.

What if the Phoenix get to keep the Yogo this time around!? That'd be awesome to have masked,cursed and moody Phoenix. Scorpion shouldn't have two Shugenja families while Phoenix have one!

From memory, I thought Hida Sozen was exchanged as a permanent hostage to the Crab, and that the Dragon received a converted Personality in kind.

2 hours ago, BCumming said:

Unicorn with less than six families would be a shame. Hoping the Horiuchi form around the same point in the timeline.

I really liked Horiuchi Shoan, but the family was the result of a mistake in card naming. Granted, that doesn't mean FFG can't just have the Horiuchi exist anyway, but six families seems like a bit much, at least for the core set.

1 hour ago, llamaman88 said:

What if the Phoenix get to keep the Yogo this time around!? That'd be awesome to have masked,cursed and moody Phoenix. Scorpion shouldn't have two Shugenja families while Phoenix have one!

Since the only Yogo we have currently seen in the LCG is a Scorpion, I think you can forget that idea.

39 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

I really liked Horiuchi Shoan, but the family was the result of a mistake in card naming. Granted, that doesn't mean FFG can't just have the Horiuchi exist anyway, but six families seems like a bit much, at least for the core set.

And while Shoan's action were worthy of founding her own family, it should have been a vassal family, not a major one. It's only the typo that made it a major family but lorewise, it was unjustified.

36 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

While I am not Kinzen... those who forsake their oaths of fealty without the lord's express permission or orders have no claim on the lineage that did serve faithfully.

When Mirumoto Sozen was allowed to swear fealty to the Crab, he wasn't still "Mirumoto Sozen." He was Hida Sozen.

That's true with small scale application because said character is leaving his direct family line (Mirumoto, in Sozen's case). Claiming to be a Mirumoto after that fact makes little sense. The same applies to a group of Mirumoto abandoning their oaths to the Mirumoto family. All would lose their family name because the Mirumoto Daimyo and most of his followers still remain. They still govern the use and function of the Mirumoto family. Thus, only a portion leaves the whole. If the whole leaves, as in having nothing remain to govern the use and function of the Mirumoto family, then the oath to the clan is the one that is broken, not the one made directly to one's Family Daimyo -- who happens to be leaving as well.

There are a couple of points that muddle this situation IMO: 1) The separation of Champion and Family Daimyo in Rokugan and 2) The precedent of the Yasuki break from the Crane. The separation of Champion and Family Daimyo confuses real world historical precedent. In Japanese history, families switched loyalties while retaining their family name. The family 'owned' the name. In Rokugan, assuming the Emperor ratifies a Champion's edict to create and continue a family name, then it's plausible that the Agasha family would be allowed to persist within the Phoenix, should Tsukune approve. She's a Champion, after all. This is also supported by the Yasuki break from the Crane. The Yasuki Family Daimyo and the majority of Yasuki were depicted to have 'control' over where their name went, not the Crane Champion.

Now there is room to argue that the precedent is wrong, going all the way back to the Yasuki break. This is why I was curious as to what Kinzen would say here. If the precedent is wrong though, then I would be more than happy to have the Crane adopt the Shrewd Yasuki in the LCG...

2 hours ago, BitRunr said:

Way Of The Phoenix (iirc) & The Way Of Shinsei (98).

I'd argue that shugenja are in an odd place, but I don't think that's in question. On the one hand they're supposed to exist for harmony between the samurai of Rokugan, and need be somewhat worldly in maintaining that. On the other, the intermediary for things that normal people can't understand, and deny worldliness for the betterment of their connection to the kami.

I do believe monks are more likely to place themselves at the forefront of harmony or conflict with non-humans, angered beasts, and anything that might be termed religious without being focused solely on samurai, though.

I'm not sure if "denying worldliness" works to "better a Shugenja's connection to the kami". Consider that Soshi and Asahina shugenja can be assets at court with their primary focus on air spells like Secrets on the Wind and Flight of Doves etc... Or, Duel focused spells like Essense of Fire, from Fire Shugenja, could be applicable and potent in court. In other words, Kami are everywhere. The context may change, but the use of kami changes with the context. There isn't a mutual exclusivity here.

I think Monks and Shugenja can be equally as spiritual, equally as religious and equally as political. It's all a matter of how each character chooses to employ their varied skill sets. Traditionally speaking, the Isawa have been more 'present' in Phoenix clan affairs across Rokugan. The Asako, more focused on solitude and the path to enlightenment. And so, it just makes more sense to me that the Isawa would have more courtiers among their ranks. It doesn't need to be an either/or though, I'd welcome more Asako courtiers too.

Lame, hadn't seen that one yet. Oh well. I have always wanted to like the Phoenix because the Shiba are so cool! But nothing else interests me about them. I'm not a big mage/wizard fan and that's all they seem to really be (I know, that's not what Shugenja are supposed to be). Hoping FFG can fix that because their Clan Wars era characters were honestly awesome looking if nothing else.

16 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

Lame, hadn't seen that one yet. Oh well. I have always wanted to like the Phoenix because the Shiba are so cool! But nothing else interests me about them. I'm not a big mage/wizard fan and that's all they seem to really be (I know, that's not what Shugenja are supposed to be). Hoping FFG can fix that because their Clan Wars era characters were honestly awesome looking if nothing else.

Did you play during the Clan Wars era? Because your insights about the Phoenix have been truisms for a very long time, IMO. My non-Phoenix playing friends would confirm:

1. Shiba are so cool. Yes, yes they are.

2. Not big mage/wizard fans. I have heard this from a lot of players, both experienced and inexperienced. Shugenja need to be re-done, IMO.

3. Clan Wars character were awesome looking. Tadaka was a huge draw for the Phoenix. As was the art for Ujimitsu and Tsukune.

7 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

While I am not Kinzen... those who forsake their oaths of fealty without the lord's express permission or orders have no claim on the lineage that did serve faithfully.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Whatever historical Japanese precedent might be, I think the depiction of Rokugani notions of fealty and honor means that anybody who abandons their clan and joins another should be depicted as forsaking the family they came from and either joining an existing one elsewhere or founding a new one. Nowhere is this stronger than in the case of the Agasha/Tamori, because that was a full-on split and the idea that the traitors have the superior claim to the family name is absurd, but I feel like there should have been a name change for the Yasuki as well. When the Akodo got a similar treatment, the family itself was abolished, along with their name.

6 hours ago, Anemura said:

Did you play during the Clan Wars era? Because your insights about the Phoenix have been truisms for a very long time, IMO. My non-Phoenix playing friends would confirm:

1. Shiba are so cool. Yes, yes they are.

2. Not big mage/wizard fans. I have heard this from a lot of players, both experienced and inexperienced. Shugenja need to be re-done, IMO.

3. Clan Wars character were awesome looking. Tadaka was a huge draw for the Phoenix. As was the art for Ujimitsu and Tsukune.

No I started in Gold Edition. But between KYD and the Clan Wars novels I am a huge fan of the era. Tadaka and Ujimitsu were great in The Phoenix, too bad it was more about Kaede.

Shiba almost always enough to make me look at the clan, and their lore from the RP books easily puts them as a top family for me.

But I think the rest of the clan has been mishandled a lot. Obviously they cover a niche that isn't for me and I'm okay with that, but they don't have to be so focused on that niche. I don't feel like any other clan's scope is so narrow. Or confused.

"We are peace loving priests! Hold still while we burn you to death!"

2 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

No I started in Gold Edition. But between KYD and the Clan Wars novels I am a huge fan of the era. Tadaka and Ujimitsu were great in The Phoenix, too bad it was more about Kaede.

Shiba almost always enough to make me look at the clan, and their lore from the RP books easily puts them as a top family for me.

But I think the rest of the clan has been mishandled a lot. Obviously they cover a niche that isn't for me and I'm okay with that, but they don't have to be so focused on that niche. I don't feel like any other clan's scope is so narrow. Or confused.

"We are peace loving priests! Hold still while we burn you to death!"

"We are peace loving priests! If you want to bring a war to our lands which will kill thousands, we will burn hundreds of you to death to stop it!"

15 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

"We are peace loving priests! If you want to bring a war to our lands which will kill thousands, we will burn hundreds of you to death to stop it!"

I think you misspelled "We are peace loving priests! If you want to bring war... ooo look Maho!" >.>
I mean, I do feel like that's what it is supposed to be. If you bring us to war we'll use our mastery of magic to crush you. That's a fine theme. But I don't remember it actually being that way often. Could be that I'm biased because of Gold Edition.

Seriously the first story of theirs I dealt with was "How dare you Dragon use our lands to hide from the worst volcanic activity in Rokugan's history! We'll use a magical WMD to punish you for it!"

You know, one reason I stopped playing the CCG was because of the inability to play pure human shugenja out of Phoenix. I'd basically played Phoenix ever since Jade, as pure as snow and filled with humans. And then the only two options on Strongholds were to play Kinuye's lackeys or a bunch of non-humans (I think it was the City of Remembrance).

I'm a bit fed up with the 'Phoenix use maho all the time' trope. They really shouldn't: they have the best libraries, teachers and spells in the Empire. Maho-tsukai ought to be peasants or non-shugenja that have been corrupted by kansen, because they don't know better, not the people who know a lot about the perils of the Shadowlands, and wiped out an entire Minor Clan because they were accidentally tainted.

Yes, they opened the Black Scrolls, but that was actually the right thing to do, come the Second Day of Thunder. But it also cost the Clan greatly. They should know better by now!!