The Phoenix being mishandled in the story is about the only thing the Phoenix playerbase as a whole agrees on.

While everyone thinks their clan gets it in the neck the worst, I can truthfully say that unless you're a Dragon or Mantis fan, you need to step back and recognize that the fire chickens really DO have it worse in terms of portrayal than you do.

10 hours ago, Anemura said:

3. Clan Wars character were awesome looking. Tadaka was a huge draw for the Phoenix. As was the art for Ujimitsu and Tsukune.

I absolutely agree for Tadaka but... Ujimitsu? Really? It always seemed to me the less memorable of the original Cham`pions... I even had too look for the card, to make sure what he looked like. XD

5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

"We are peace loving priests! If you want to bring a war to our lands which will kill thousands, we will burn hundreds of you to death to stop it!"

While this should be the Phoenix way of things, I'm hardly pressed to remember a single case when it held true. Maybe some obscure conflict involving the Lion Clan?

On 7/9/2017 at 9:44 AM, Kinzen said:

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Whatever historical Japanese precedent might be, I think the depiction of Rokugani notions of fealty and honor means that anybody who abandons their clan and joins another should be depicted as forsaking the family they came from and either joining an existing one elsewhere or founding a new one. Nowhere is this stronger than in the case of the Agasha/Tamori, because that was a full-on split and the idea that the traitors have the superior claim to the family name is absurd, but I feel like there should have been a name change for the Yasuki as well. When the Akodo got a similar treatment, the family itself was abolished, along with their name.

When a whole family exits they take Agasha's blood ties with them, so I'm not sure why preserving the legacy and not the lineage is vitally important to the Dragon Champion? Would the Dragon then attempt to adopt and train Agasha Shugenja that had zero blood ties to the original Agasha? Phoenix did something similar to this after their clan was decimated by the Clan Wars, but even they had Isawa Shugenja remaining to continue the bloodline.

Blood matters in Rokugan. It's why the head's of families are descendants of the Kami, and not samurai who rose to such a position via a meritocracy.

I'm curious how you would address the retention of the family name without the blood of the family remaining? I think one way would be to search for blood relatives in the remaining Togashi, Mirumoto and Kitsuki, pull them out from those existing families to reform the new Agasha within the Dragon. Might be one way to go.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

While this should be the Phoenix way of things, I'm hardly pressed to remember a single case when it held true. Maybe some obscure conflict involving the Lion Clan?

Showing this would have meant the Phoenix outright winning a war (through raw force, particularly, but...), which never happened on AEG's watch, rolling into Toshi Ranbo at the end of the Khan's March aside.

1 hour ago, Anemura said:

Blood matters in Rokugan. It's why the head's of families are descendants of the Kami, and not samurai who rose to such a position via a meritocracy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading about this on the wiki last night and my understanding was that the head of the house was the daimyo Agasha Tamori. His immediate family remained with the dragon, and it was his daughter who was placed as head of the "new" Tamori family. So if the family name should remain with the main/leading family, wouldn't the former daimyo's family who remained with the dragon have the rightful claim to the family name by blood?

8 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading about this on the wiki last night and my understanding was that the head of the house was the daimyo Agasha Tamori. His immediate family remained with the dragon, and it was his daughter who was placed as head of the "new" Tamori family. So if the family name should remain with the main/leading family, wouldn't the former daimyo's family who remained with the dragon have the rightful claim to the family name by blood?

probably.....but

rules on succesion and inheritance are far more fluid than you might expect in a society like Rokugans.

And, fealty is more important than the blood tie.

1 hour ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading about this on the wiki last night and my understanding was that the head of the house was the daimyo Agasha Tamori. His immediate family remained with the dragon, and it was his daughter who was placed as head of the "new" Tamori family. So if the family name should remain with the main/leading family, wouldn't the former daimyo's family who remained with the dragon have the rightful claim to the family name by blood?

Perhaps, and maybe all Toturi needed to do was to intercede with an edict, one way or the other. However, what ended up happening was that this situation was allowed to linger for nearly 20 years. This was "resolved" at the time by having both a Dragon Clan Agasha family and a Phoenix Clan Agasha family. Basically, Agasha Tamori did retain the name of "Agasha" after the defection of all but 9 other Agasha members.

Oddly enough, in late 1131 or 1132, Agasha Tamori himself abandoned his Clan and Family to become Ronin... And Agasha Gennai was confirmed as Agasha Daimyo of the Phoenix in 1131. So that further muddled the situation as to who had the greater claim.

In the strictest sense, 'Agasha Shaitung' and 8 other family members is enough to maintain the lineage of the Agasha line within the Dragon. Then the issue becomes: Why was the name _also_ allowed to persist in the Phoenix for 20 years? It's probably because all but select remnants of the family effectively left the Dragon. The larger effect was still the same as when the Yasuki left the Crane, even though technically the Daimyo remained for a few months in this case.

No easy answer, IMO.

18 hours ago, Anemura said:

I'm not sure if "denying worldliness" works to "better a Shugenja's connection to the kami".

Imperial Archives, 100. Suggestions for how to handle it mechanically range from a spellcasting bonus/penalty for how pious/worldly each shugenja's actions are, to a penalty based on their worldly skills, or a bonus against worldly appeals from Meditation or Lore: Theology. There is a connection between removing oneself from worldly concerns and spiritual power in L5R. You can manage while remaining worldly, potentially (or if the GM/writer decides they don't want to focus on those details), but going with the grain of what the kami appreciate commonly works better than pushing them around.

Quote

maybe all Toturi needed to do was to intercede with an edict, one way or the other.

If the Dragon had been set to go to the courts and leverage matters in their favour, that would probably have been enough. Between this matter, Mirumoto Satsu's sudden end with Hida Yakamo's poor duelling manner, the years long betrothal between Mirumoto Shikei and Moto Naleesh ... they're not exactly charging around to fix courtly matters that could end up going against them.

2 hours ago, BitRunr said:

Imperial Archives, 100. Suggestions for how to handle it mechanically range from a spellcasting bonus/penalty for how pious/worldly each shugenja's actions are, to a penalty based on their worldly skills, or a bonus against worldly appeals from Meditation or Lore: Theology. There is a connection between removing oneself from worldly concerns and spiritual power in L5R. You can manage while remaining worldly, potentially (or if the GM/writer decides they don't want to focus on those details), but going with the grain of what the kami appreciate commonly works better than pushing them around.

If the Dragon had been set to go to the courts and leverage matters in their favour, that would probably have been enough. Between this matter, Mirumoto Satsu's sudden end with Hida Yakamo's poor duelling manner, the years long betrothal between Mirumoto Shikei and Moto Naleesh ... they're not exactly charging around to fix courtly matters that could end up going against them.

Ah, I understand now your initial comment about Shugenja * Courtier's being "worldly". This infers a possible penalty to spell casting the more said Shugenja is involved in Politics and Commerce. To answer: My vision of Shugenja does not include the more recent RPG source material, and so, I am inferring the Shugenja's role based upon his/her role in the original Way of Clan books, the CCG and Japanese history. There, an inherent penalty/bonus did not exist. If a Shugenja chose to focus on Court, this would probably cost him in a split focus in School Training and/or Skill Training. He/she would naturally become 'less' effective as a pure Shugenja by choice.

The Kami stir based upon prayer/supplication. To me, there is little difference between a Scorpion Shugenja communing with a Kami for Secrets on the Wind, than a Phoenix Earth Tensai communing with a Kami for Earthquake. In both cases, prayer is used to cajole the Kami to act in a specific manner that benefits said Shugenja.

That's a fair take on the Dragon Clan's aversion to Court, but 'realistically', the Agasha's departure had to have been the primary topic in court. Until the Spirit War, that is... How often does an entire family leave their clan? My guess is that the story team wanted to focus on Hitomi's non-Politics related story. The Agasha joining the Phoenix actually came across as a minor event in the end.

16 minutes ago, Anemura said:

The Agasha joining the Phoenix actually came across as a minor event in the end.

Which, you know... gives credence to those of us who regard the entire affair as having been catastrophically mishandled.

7 hours ago, Anemura said:

When a whole family exists they take Agasha's blood ties with them, so I'm not sure why preserving the legacy and not the lineage is vitally important to the Dragon Champion? Would the Dragon then attempt to adopt and train Agasha Shugenja that had zero blood ties to the original Agasha? Phoenix did something similar to this after their clan was decimated by the Clan Wars, but even they had Isawa Shugenja remaining to continue the bloodline.

Blood matters in Rokugan. It's why the head's of families are descendants of the Kami, and not samurai who rose to such a position via a meritocracy.

Blood matters -- but so does fealty. The simple fact is that the ones who left the Dragon were traitors to their clan. Traitors should not get to keep their family name. Their founder Agasha swore to serve Togashi, not Shiba. (Much less Isawa.)

48 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Blood matters -- but so does fealty. The simple fact is that the ones who left the Dragon were traitors to their clan. Traitors should not get to keep their family name. Their founder Agasha swore to serve Togashi, not Shiba. (Much less Isawa.)

I think that was their point. Agasha swore to serve Togashi, not a former Mirumoto who had taken it upon herself to found a new family and banished the rest of the Togashi out of the High house of Light. Their fealty had been usurped, so they took their loyalty somewhere else.

In fact, I don't think we should look for the reasons of the Phoenix Agasha taking the name in the lore, but outside of it. I think it's more something like : "

- The Phoenix have 3 families and is the shugenja clan. The Dragon has 6 families and is the monk clan. How do we balance that?

- We take the Dragon shugenja family and make it a Phoenix shugenja family.

- How do we justify the lore incoherence on fealty?

- Whatever, since Hitomi is the villain of the arc, let's say they don't want to cooperate with her and they leave.

- With our lore, when they disagree with their lord, shouldn't they commit seppuku?

- Do you even play the game, seppuku is for samurai, not shugenja.

- Huh, in our lore, shugenja are samurai, the distinction is just a mechanical one.

- Whatever, do it like I said.

- Months later: Hitomi is not the villain of the arc anymore, how do we still justify the Agasha defection?

- Don't talk about it, they have forgotten.

- Years later : Having 3 Dragon monk families is inconsitent and useless, and it would be better if they had a shugenja family. What do we do?

- Suppress the Hoshi and the Hitomi family for some dumb reason (use a retcon if you need) and make a new family with the name of a guy considered a traitor by the whole empire...

- Huh, why?

- Reasons..."

On 7/10/2017 at 0:59 AM, Kinzen said:

Blood matters -- but so does fealty. The simple fact is that the ones who left the Dragon were traitors to their clan. Traitors should not get to keep their family name. Their founder Agasha swore to serve Togashi, not Shiba. (Much less Isawa.)

"Traitors" is a word that has a connotation beyond the practice of fealty. If we want to delve into the topic of betrayal, or to be traitorous, then I would first ask what Hitomi was deemed to be during the time when she was killing her own kinsmen? Or, when Hitomi forced all of the Togashi family to renounce their loyalty to their family line under pain of death? Some did, while others fled the Dragon lands and joined the Brotherhood of Shinsei. One of their number happened to be Togashi Hoshi... Should he have been made to abandon the Togashi name in that instance? Hitomi also discarded the Mirumoto family name, offered fealty to tainted Kokujin, had him enforce certain policies etc... Does a Lord have a duty to protect her vassals? Should the Agasha have all committed Seppuku in protest?

I'd like to park that side of the discussion (it's a mess) and focus on what fealty and blood lineage mean. From my understanding, when someone pledges to serve a family Daimyo, that Daimyo can grant said individual lands (to govern) and potentially an existing family name. Usually, clan alignment is inferred here. So Togashi Yokuni can grant the Ronin Dairya the name Togashi and lands for Togashi Dairya to govern. He can also choose to instead grant Dairya the Mirumoto name because he can command that action from the Mirumoto Daimyo. What Togashi Yokuni can't do is let Dairya create and persist the Dairya name within the Dragon Clan. Meaning, Dairya cannot give his name out to followers. Why? Because the Emperor is the only one that can grant and persist a family name in Rokugan. Another example of this is Hitomi herself abandoning the Mirumoto name (is she a traitor to the Mirumoto here?) and then petitioning Toturi to be able to create and maintain the Hitomi line within the Dragon.

We know that that Emperor can abolish family lines, as we saw with the Akodo.

We also know that an Edict cannot be overturned unless made so by that Emperor, or successive Emperors.

And so, if we know that a Clan Champion cannot grant or abolish family names on their own, by what right can Hitomi force the Agasha family to abandon their name to the Dragon Clan? With nearly every Agasha blooded family member exiting the clan?

To look at this another way, let's roll the clock back to the time of the Kami. Suppose for instance that Agasha left the Dragon Clan to become Ronin, but that this departure was after the Emperor had granted him leave to continue his family name. Does he leave his own name with the Dragon Clan? I think he would continue his Ronin family outside Clan Alignment, much like Hoshi had done when he had left the Dragon Clan. Your thoughts?

On 7/10/2017 at 0:54 AM, Shiba Gunichi said:

Which, you know... gives credence to those of us who regard the entire affair as having been catastrophically mishandled.

I'm not disputing that it was mishandled overall. 20 years in the timeline with no resolution from the Emperor is either a Story Team mishap or Toturi not knowing what he was doing. My only contention is about the 'ownership' of the family name, not everything else.

14 hours ago, Anemura said:

And so, if we know that a Clan Champion cannot grant or abolish family names on their own, by what right can Hitomi force the Agasha family to abandon their name to the Dragon Clan? With nearly every Agasha blooded family member exiting the clan?

I believe you have that one backwards. No matter how many Agasha samurai 'exit' the Dragon clan and Agasha family, not one of them own the Agasha name.

On 7/10/2017 at 5:37 PM, Anemura said:

My vision of Shugenja does not include the more recent RPG source material, and so, I am inferring the Shugenja's role based upon his/her role in the original Way of Clan books, the CCG and Japanese history. There, an inherent penalty/bonus did not exist. If a Shugenja chose to focus on Court, this would probably cost him in a split focus in School Training and/or Skill Training. He/she would naturally become 'less' effective as a pure Shugenja by choice.

The Kami stir based upon prayer/supplication. To me, there is little difference between a Scorpion Shugenja communing with a Kami for Secrets on the Wind, than a Phoenix Earth Tensai communing with a Kami for Earthquake. In both cases, prayer is used to cajole the Kami to act in a specific manner that benefits said Shugenja.

That's a fair take on the Dragon Clan's aversion to Court, but 'realistically', the Agasha's departure had to have been the primary topic in court. Until the Spirit War, that is... How often does an entire family leave their clan? My guess is that the story team wanted to focus on Hitomi's non-Politics related story. The Agasha joining the Phoenix actually came across as a minor event in the end.

I don't consider the Imperial Archives to be a departure from previous material, but the clearest source for referral.

When the material describes differences between the clans' methods of prayer and level of force used in awakening the kami, from the brute willpower of the Kuni to the more subtle methods of the Asahina, I would disagree.

I'm sure it was. That doesn't mean the Dragon addressed it in sufficient manner for the courts of Rokugan.

4 hours ago, BitRunr said:

I don't consider the Imperial Archives to be a departure from previous material, but the clearest source for referral.

When the material describes differences between the clans' methods of prayer and level of force used in awakening the kami, from the brute willpower of the Kuni to the more subtle methods of the Asahina, I would disagree.

I'm sure it was. That doesn't mean the Dragon addressed it in sufficient manner for the courts of Rokugan.

Points 1 and 2 are effects that did not exist in the original source material. These additions change how spells work across factions and across contexts. This is very different from when compared to the original source material, where no such hindrances or 'caps' were blanketed on the Shugenja class. But regardless, if your main point is that any Isawa choosing to forgo more Shugenja-centric training to more involved in the courts must also suffer a penalty for diversifying, I am not in disagreement. In such a state they are no longer specialized. It would be the same if a Bushi had forgone martial training to pick up a court-based school rank.

Ok so you're saying that because Dragon decided not to petition Toturi to have the Phoenix Agasha drop their family name, Toturi felt no onus in addressing the matter for 20 years?

4 hours ago, BitRunr said:

I believe you have that one backwards. No matter how many Agasha samurai 'exit' the Dragon clan and Agasha family, not one of them own the Agasha name.

They are not Agasha Samurai exiting the Agasha family, they are the Agasha family as a whole exiting the Dragon clan.

I may be completely wrong about this, as it was during a time when I was just barely into L5R, but the whole 'Agasha exodus' happened during the time Toturi was influenced/corrupted by the Darkness wasn't it? Hitomi was mad and also suffering from the Darkness and therefore, the Agasha leaving over her actions wasn't exactly a concern of Toturi's. And then, when he came back in at Oblivion's Gate and in the leadup to the War of Spirits, neither clan really made it an issue did they?

I think that while IRL the move was stupidly done, in the story, the move was overshadowed for lack of a better word by other events and then not addressed until it was too late.

2 hours ago, Anemura said:

Points 1 and 2 are effects that did not exist in the original source material. These additions change how spells work across factions and across contexts. This is very different from when compared to the original source material, where no such hindrances or 'caps' were blanketed on the Shugenja class. But regardless, if your main point is that any Isawa choosing to forgo more Shugenja-centric training to more involved in the courts must also suffer a penalty for diversifying, I am not in disagreement. In such a state they are no longer specialized. It would be the same if a Bushi had forgone martial training to pick up a court-based school rank.

The mechanics did not exist. The mechanics exist in fourth edition to promote playing to the setting, not to change the setting to fit the mechanics.

2 hours ago, Anemura said:

Ok so you're saying that because Dragon decided not to petition Toturi to have the Phoenix Agasha drop their family name, Toturi felt no onus in addressing the matter for 20 years?

Yes. Emphatically yes. Until Hantei XVI saw a weakness he could exploit to wring out what little extra pain he could. Dragon have never been prone to courtly presence, and even matters that clans want to bring up can go unheard for years. The Dragon were busy fighting off the Naga in the Siege Of Sleeping Mountain, then the following year Hitomi killed The Moon, there was The Assault On Otosan Uchi, Battle Of Oblivion's Gate, Toturi I's return to the throne ... and by that point, no one else cares. They have their own *current and relevant* issues to bring before the emperor.

2 hours ago, Anemura said:

They are not Agasha Samurai exiting the Agasha family, they are the Agasha family as a whole exiting the Dragon clan.

Again, it does not matter how many samurai left, nor does it matter that they left in unison.

3 hours ago, Anemura said:

They are not Agasha Samurai exiting the Agasha family, they are the Agasha family as a whole exiting the Dragon clan.

Since the Daimyo of the Agasha family didn't exit the Dragon Clan, that's just false.

Honestly, trying to justify inlore the numerous mistakes, omissions or other awful decisions of the Lying Darkness arc storyteam is an exercise in futility. With all respect due to Miss Soesbee, she was the worst lead writer L5R had and the story she wrote for Guild Wars 2 (for which she is/was a head writer) proved it wasn't a single misstep.

6 hours ago, KerenRhys said:

With all respect due to Miss Soesbee, she was the worst lead writer L5R had and the story she wrote for Guild Wars 2 (for which she is/was a head writer) proved it wasn't a single misstep.

Her work on AEG's Warlord: Saga of the Storm was excellent though.

7 hours ago, BitRunr said:

The mechanics did not exist. The mechanics exist in fourth edition to promote playing to the setting, not to change the setting to fit the mechanics.

Yes. Emphatically yes. Until Hantei XVI saw a weakness he could exploit to wring out what little extra pain he could. Dragon have never been prone to courtly presence, and even matters that clans want to bring up can go unheard for years. The Dragon were busy fighting off the Naga in the Siege Of Sleeping Mountain, then the following year Hitomi killed The Moon, there was The Assault On Otosan Uchi, Battle Of Oblivion's Gate, Toturi I's return to the throne ... and by that point, no one else cares. They have their own *current and relevant* issues to bring before the emperor.

Again, it does not matter how many samurai left, nor does it matter that they left in unison.

We have to assume Dragon presence in court simply based on the fact that they are a great clan. I think that's a fair statement to make. If you disagree with even that understanding, then I will offer Hitomi's petition to Toturi to create the Hitomi line as evidence that at some point there was a window to address the situation. However, I should not need to put that forward. The Dragon are a great clan, they have courtiers, and those courtiers proliferate the courts. There has to be agreement there.

Please explain why it does not matter if the Agasha family leaves as a whole when we have precedent with the Yasuki in the setting and examples about families switching allegiance in ancient Japan?

7 hours ago, KerenRhys said:

Since the Daimyo of the Agasha family didn't exit the Dragon Clan, that's just false.

Honestly, trying to justify inlore the numerous mistakes, omissions or other awful decisions of the Lying Darkness arc storyteam is an exercise in futility. With all respect due to Miss Soesbee, she was the worst lead writer L5R had and the story she wrote for Guild Wars 2 (for which she is/was a head writer) proved it wasn't a single misstep.

Agasha Tamori left the Dragon soon afterwards to become a Ronin.

The 9 remaining members preserved the Agasha name within the Dragon for 20 years.

To me, the story mistake was to not have Toturi or his regent address this issue for 20 years... not that 99% of the Agasha family retained the name when they left to join the Phoenix, but I think I've made my case well on this point. Whatever the current story team wants to have set as a precedent for families switching between clans, I'm fine with. Rokugan is not Japan. I understand this and will enjoy the story as it is written.

Assuming that they keep a lot of the previous Phoenix Clan dynamics, it would seem to me that the Shiba would be the most able family to fill both the military and political aspirations of the Clan. The Asako family's on internal lore made their place as the clan's "face" was a bit at odds with their ultra secretive super monk focus. In addition the old lore had the Isawa just this side of hostile towards the Asako (due to jealousy of Shinsei's favor). That makes it seem unlikely to me that they Isawa would want to place the entire clan's courtly glory upon a family they look down on and would like to see humbled. Then we have the Isawa themselves. Due to their tendency to only be concerned with the kami, "pacifism", and maho they really have never had a real grasp on the realities of the Empire.

With the above considered, that leaves us with the Shiba. The Shiba keep the peace between the two spiritual families, they keep their eye on the external threats to the Clan. They also are more service oriented. Finally they're the actual "royal" line of the Clan. While the Shiba like their founder are humble, the rest of Rokugan respects their lineage and sees them as the Clan's "true" Champions. This would, in my view give them the edge on courtly behavior, and honestly I think it's appropriate. So the Shiba represent and protect the Clan on battlefields both political and military, the Isawa seek the Clan's favor with the kami and fortunes, while the Agasha follow the disciplines of the arts and spiritual enlightenment.

The Dragon should keep the Agasha, that storyline went south rather quickly and I'd like to avoid those mistakes. As I see it the Phoenix has the families it needs to get the job done.