I had an intriguing thought the other day, which led me to an unexpected conclusion.

Way back when Hotaru and Altansarnai were revealed one of the suggestions for why those two champions were gender-swapped was that it would make the Champions in the core box match up with the Kami in the history. I quite liked it.

Recently, we have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clan Champion is going to be Tsukune, not Ujimitsu. This runs contrary to the previous theory.

There are a couple of possible ways to reconcile these. Either the first theory is wrong, or our assumption of the gender of the Kami is wrong. Would people be happy with the idea of Shiba being Bayushi's twin sister rather than twin brother?

I realise that there are odd optics behind having a woman kneel to a man, but then again there is the concept of a woman promising to defend a man and his family.

20 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I had an intriguing thought the other day, which led me to an unexpected conclusion.

Way back when Hotaru and Altansarnai were revealed one of the suggestions for why those two champions were gender-swapped was that it would make the Champions in the core box match up with the Kami in the history. I quite liked it.

Recently, we have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clan Champion is going to be Tsukune, not Ujimitsu. This runs contrary to the previous theory.

There are a couple of possible ways to reconcile these. Either the first theory is wrong, or our assumption of the gender of the Kami is wrong. Would people be happy with the idea of Shiba being Bayushi's twin sister rather than twin brother?

I realise that there are odd optics behind having a woman kneel to a man, but then again there is the concept of a woman promising to defend a man and his family.

I wouldn't get upset if they made shiba a woman. It really wouldn't Impact things much.

What would be weird about a female Shiba kneeling to a male Isawa?
Hida Kisada is male, and every Samurai and subject in the Crab lands kneels to him. Including the women.
And in Crane lands the Champion is female. Either way, gender has never kept any character from being depicted
as a lord or servant, protector or ward, combatant or civilian, Samurai or courtier, honorable or dishonorable...
If making Shiba female would benefit the story, I don't think the fact that Shiba swore fealty to Isawa should stand in the way of that.

That said, I don't see how the gender of either of the Kami really matters, anyway. None of them are eligible for marriage. ^^

Well, they're supposed to have legitimate descendants, so I assume they were at some point.

I'm still of the opinion that the genderswaps are there more as a reminder to L5R veterans (or heads-up for those still out of the loop) that this is a new timeline, separate and distinct from the AEG continuity. And of course, the story of Hoturi and Kachiko has already been told (twice); telling it again doesn't seem necessary when making the male Hoturi into the female Hotaru could lead to some new twists.

Only if Bayushi is too. Identical Kami twins and all

2 minutes ago, Daidoji Mumei said:

Only if Bayushi is too. Identical Kami twins and all

Make them Fraternal Kami twins, problem solved.

4 minutes ago, Isawa Omi said:

Make them Fraternal Kami twins, problem solved.

Fraternal, opposite-sex twins are rarely identical.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Recently, we have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clan Champion is going to be Tsukune, not Ujimitsu. This runs contrary to the previous theory.

Why would anyone think he wasn't champion? Ujimitsu has been stated as clan champion since the first article. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/19/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/

Quote

Phoenix Clan Champion Shiba Ujimitsu must prepare to defend his clan’s borders while the prayers of the Phoenix’s mystical shugenja go awry.

That's an interesting idea and I'll be all for it if that happens. Phoenix love their naginatas after all.

9 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Why would anyone think he wasn't champion? Ujimitsu has been stated as clan champion since the first article. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/19/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/

So was Arasou. Also we have that spoiled banner that clearly shows Tsukune's art. All the other banners show art of the clan champs. Though it does seems strange to pull the same trick twice. Maybe Ujimitsu will just take a back seat to Tsukune ... IIRC we've seen her card's cost spoiled already and it was 5 fate just like all the other champs.

6 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Why would anyone think he wasn't champion? Ujimitsu has been stated as clan champion since the first article. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/19/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/

Tsukune has a partially spoiled card that cost five fate. No other clan so far has more than one five fate cost character, and all those characters have been champions.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I had an intriguing thought the other day, which led me to an unexpected conclusion.

Would people be happy with the idea of Shiba being Bayushi's twin sister rather than twin brother?

This thought occurred to me a few weeks ago and I brought it up with one of our local Phoenix. (Continued below)

10 minutes ago, Isawa Omi said:

Make them Fraternal Kami twins, problem solved.

5 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Fraternal, opposite-sex twins are rarely identical.

The counter point that was brought up is that having Bayushi and Shiba not be the same gender like they were in the CCG Dawn of the Empire kills the origin of Bayushi's Mask. (Unless, of course, they were physically indistinguishable when fully clothed. E.g. Alphinaud and Alisaie from Final Fantasy XIV.)

Personally, I'm fine with Shiba being female. But what then becomes the creation story of the Scorpion masks?

27 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Fraternal, opposite-sex twins are rarely identical.

I don't recall them being 'identical' anyway.

Make Shiba female and Bayushi androgynous to the point that he can pull off the Liebert twins.

And I thought that Bayusi's Mask origin was that Shinsei smacked Bayushi for pretending to understand what Shinsei was saying but showing with his mouth that he really didn't?

To be fair I would be also fine with Bayushi ending up as a woman : P. Either one of them. Would be a great way to clearly cut off from the early (Way of the Scorpion, etc) scorpion sexism and woman hate.

5 minutes ago, Isawa Omi said:

Tsukune has a partially spoiled card that cost five fate. No other clan so far has more than one five fate cost character, and all those characters have been champions.

Yeah, but she could be an elemental master easily, with them printing an elemental master in place of the champion as the signature card, since they are the ACTUAL leaders of the clan after all. Many times in the CCG have they used an elemental master as the centerpiece card over the champion. In fact every master would probably be that kind of power level anyway so if they ever wanted to print all five, starting the core with at least one is a good start.

All this as well as the issue that if Ujimitsu dies in their opening fiction Tsukune still couldn't be champion, the Soul of Shiba will have been passed on to a new child, and I DOUBT they want to go through the clan war without the Soul of Shiba around, unless they ditched that idea, but I certainly don't think they would abandon the concept of the reincarnating soul of Shiba, since it IS the phoenix clan after all and its central to their identity.

I think she will be the interest character for sure, she has the same style of dynamic art work as the other champions, signifying her as part of the cycle, but I would guess her being a master before her being the champion.

25 minutes ago, phillos said:

So was Arasou. Also we have that spoiled banner that clearly shows Tsukune's art. All the other banners show art of the clan champs. Though it does seems strange to pull the same trick twice. Maybe Ujimitsu will just take a back seat to Tsukune ... IIRC we've seen her card's cost spoiled already and it was 5 fate just like all the other champs.

In the case of Arasou, the same paragraph where they introduce him they mention toturi, setting the reader up for understanding the change in leadership. Tsukune is not mentioned at all. And plus, that would be pulling the same trick twice, which I think would be a poor decision.

1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

I'm still of the opinion that the genderswaps are there more as a reminder to L5R veterans (or heads-up for those still out of the loop) that this is a new timeline, separate and distinct from the AEG continuity. And of course, the story of Hoturi and Kachiko has already been told (twice); telling it again doesn't seem necessary when making the male Hoturi into the female Hotaru could lead to some new twists.

I think this more than anything. It stets a clear precedence of expectation without making any big waves. Right at first with Hotaru we can see much of Haturi's story is just going to be different, and we're not confronted with a major difference to start with - just the knowledge to expect something different.

42 minutes ago, WHW said:

To be fair I would be also fine with Bayushi ending up as a woman : P. Either one of them. Would be a great way to clearly cut off from the early (Way of the Scorpion, etc) scorpion sexism and woman hate.

Definitely this - They could even gender swap Shoju to keep it going. Maybe the biggest secret the Scorpion have is that Shoju was born female, but assumed the role of a male. This is why he isn't great at having kids, and why he wears a full coverage mask... He wouldn't have to be a "girl in man's clothes" trope either as they could take him full trans. Where Hotaru is definitely a girl where there was a guy in the old story, Shoju could still play the role of a guy at this point even though he was born a girl. I really doubt they'd go that far though, so I'm more of the idea that the gender swaps we've had are done with at Hotaru and Altansarnai.

35 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Yeah, but she could be an elemental master easily, with them printing an elemental master in place of the champion as the signature card, since they are the ACTUAL leaders of the clan after all. Many times in the CCG have they used an elemental master as the centerpiece card over the champion. In fact every master would probably be that kind of power level anyway so if they ever wanted to print all five, starting the core with at least one is a good start.

All this as well as the issue that if Ujimitsu dies in their opening fiction Tsukune still couldn't be champion, the Soul of Shiba will have been passed on to a new child, and I DOUBT they want to go through the clan war without the Soul of Shiba around, unless they ditched that idea, but I certainly don't think they would abandon the concept of the reincarnating soul of Shiba, since it IS the phoenix clan after all and its central to their identity.

I think she will be the interest character for sure, she has the same style of dynamic art work as the other champions, signifying her as part of the cycle, but I would guess her being a master before her being the champion.

The Isawa have the Elemental Masters, the Shiba are sworn to them. The Shiba family always has the Champion, but they serve the Elemental Masters of the Isawa. It's definitely Shiba Tsukune which says to me she is Champion, not Elemental Master.

1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Fraternal, opposite-sex twins are rarely identical.

As someone less familiar with the old lore, is there some reason that they would have to be identical?

15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

As someone less familiar with the old lore, is there some reason that they would have to be identical?

considering they are kami fallen from the heavens, I would say no.

Coyote Walks's post seem to imply that Bayushi wore a mask to distinguish himself from Shiba, which...I don't remember. Maybe it was in original AEG lore, before AEG-retcons? I'm pretty sure that the most "up to date" story about Bayushi and his mask was "Shinsei was talking nonsense, Bayushi pretended to understand it, Shinsei smacked him in the face for being a bad liar, and Bayushi tore his sleeve to wrap it around his mouth so it would never betray his true intentions again".

Why does it matter if the gender of the Kami has to be the same as the clan champions? Just seems a little silly that reincarnation must follow a gender rule.

8 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Why does it matter if the gender of the Kami has to be the same as the clan champions? Just seems a little silly that reincarnation must follow a gender rule.

It doesn't matter. It was just a theory that was put forward, since the two which were changed (Hotaru and Altansanrai) matched the two female Kami from AEG: Doji and Shinjo.

3 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

It doesn't matter. It was just a theory that was put forward, since the two which were changed (Hotaru and Altansanrai) matched the two female Kami from AEG: Doji and Shinjo.

Interesting point. Has FFG said anything definitive about the Kami? For all we know, this timeline could have Doji and Shinjo being male, with Hida and Akodo being female, and the gender swaps were made to keep clan champions the opposite gender of the founding Kami.