So I was reading Sloane again and I see that the wording is that I get to spend a defensive token. Does that mean that if the defensive token is exhausted I can then spend it and the player has to get rid of it?

And if that is the case can you double spend? so you are attacking a squadron and you get 2 accuracy you you double hit a token and trash it on them?

Yes and No.

Yes , it is a spend effect. And using a spend effect on an Exhausted Token makes it Discarded.

No , you can only do it once per attack, regardless of how many ACC results you roll on that attack, only one can be used for that purpose.

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Yes and No.

Yes , it is a spend effect. And using a spend effect on an Exhausted Token makes it Discarded.

No , you can only do it once per attack, regardless of how many ACC results you roll on that attack, only one can be used for that purpose.

The other thing to keep in mind is a token you spend woth Sloane, cannot be spent in defense as a token can only be spent once per attack. (Aside from some weak shots gaining some effect, I'm not sure how much impact this will actually have on the squad game.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

The other thing to keep in mind is a token you spend woth Sloane, cannot be spent in defense as a token can only be spent once per attack. (Aside from some weak shots gaining some effect, I'm not sure how much impact this will actually have on the squad game.

I have 3 games with sloane so far. Against aces its devastating Killing multiple of them in a single turn. Even the annoying scatter aces ends up not being able to even use their scatter until i end up destroying them very early, sometimes second turn of the match. The chance to get an accuracy or two with big anti squadron armement is something. 5 blue die on interceptors with howlrunner and 6 if you activate them with flight controller. imperial anti squad was already scary as hell how efficient it is for the cost. Sloane just adds up into it.

The problem sloane has is the same the imperial non rogue always had. Ok we do this one job well, what can we do after we win the squad fight. So Sloane is a strong damage ship fleet admiral, not a carrier admiral. Because on its own the squadron single blue die is not reliable damage unless they all attack a ship at once. Sloane wins you the squad game, with less squad investment then the other player or if you had 134 its just means you win it faster. Sloane then unable them to be useful in the ship game, should you have ships that can actually fight and kill other ships.

Thing is if you rolled accuracy twice with sloane to burn their scatter, you would have just blocked it both times anyway. Hence the unsure how effective it is. I one shot howlrunner, but I would have been able to do it without sloane too, understood now?

She does nothing to help you roll the accuracy, the ability is more there for when you roll complete crapshoot damage you can salvage a bit and leverage it, otherwise it's impact will be negligible squad v squad. The benefit is not really on the anti squad side of it at all.

The real benefits are after you have secured air superiority allowing previous mediocre ship dice to do more work. Not sooner.

2 hours ago, Darthain said:

Thing is if you rolled accuracy twice with sloane to burn their scatter, you would have just blocked it both times anyway. Hence the unsure how effective it is. I one shoy howlrunner, but I would have been able to do it without sloane too, understood now?

She does nothing to help you roll the accuracy, the ability is more there for when you roll complete crapshoot damage you can salvage a bit and leverage it, otherwise it's impact will be negligible squad v squad. The benefit is not really on the anti squad side of it at all.

The real benefits are after you have secured air superiority allowing previous mediocre ship dice to do more work. Not sooner.

There are many aces that have more hulls that you cannot one shot with accuracy results, even double, deleting their tokens means you can infact kill them sooner, because regular accuracy does not use their tokens, sloane accuracy is just that an accuracy that also spends tokens. Meaning they might just ignore the next attacks this time with no drawback at all. Except with sloane either they delete their tokens. Sloane also works on counters. Sloane helps both. She slightly increase the power of ties vs aces, which was already good because of their cost effective damage. Speeding up your winning situation in squadron mini game. Then you can use Sloane to do work with the blue die. She is a great admiral because she has double benefit here. if squadrons and aces werent so strong and meta, Sloane would be a poor admiral, just making tie poorman bombers. If she was say launched in wave 2 when people just ran rhymer balls. Her power against ships is lesser then regular bomber squads.

I want to clarify something said here. So say I target a scatter with the accuracy to spend it. The squadron gets the ability from that token so all the damage is scattered? And it not can they then burn that scatter or since it was spent they can't use it again.... I a bit confused.

9 minutes ago, Payens said:

I want to clarify something said here. So say I target a scatter with the accuracy to spend it. The squadron gets the ability from that token so all the damage is scattered? And it not can they then burn that scatter or since it was spent they can't use it again.... I a bit confused.

They do not.

Only the defender can spend the scatter to generate its effect.

And in the case of Sloane, she is the attacker when she spends it.

- There are multiple rules in play here (All found on Page 4 of the RRG, under "Defense Tokens"). The rules are in Bold, and my responses follow in italics.

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below

- the effects are not generated because Sloane is spending them, both as an attacker, and, spending them during the "resolve attack effects" step. Either of those would be sufficient in stopping Sloane's effect from Generating the scatter. This is also backed up with:

• Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

- Fleet Commanders are a specific type of Upgrade Card. Sloane's effect is an Upgrade Card Effect. The defense token spent doe snot produce its normal effect, unless specifically stated to.

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

- Note, that the rule is "during an attack"... Not, "once by an attacker, once by a defender.", simply - once during an attack... So if Sloane spends the Scatter - which she does, first, during the attack, (as 'resolve attack effects" happens before "spend defense tokens"), then the Scatter cannot be Spent again by the defender - it has already been spent this attack.

• The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

- Hypothetically, if a Squadron had two Scatters, and you spent one of them with Sloane, it would be able to spend the other to remove any and all damage... However, as the die was spent to trigger Sloane, that die doesn't exist to be cancelled, and the net effect would, essentially be - "no damage, both spent." - The restriction here about spending redundant tokens is on the Defender, and as stated above, Sloane's spending is by the Attacker - so it does not apply to the limit.

I hope that sheds some light to the reasoning why.

Yes that clears up lots thank you

Related question, at what point does sloane's ability activate, Spend accuracy or apply damage?

15 hours ago, kmiller9957 said:

Related question, at what point does sloane's ability activate, Spend accuracy or apply damage?

Spend accuracy.

19 hours ago, kmiller9957 said:

Related question, at what point does sloane's ability activate, Spend accuracy or apply damage?

It activates during "Resolve Attack Effects" which is *also* the time you would spend accuracies normally.

tks

On 7/7/2017 at 2:58 PM, Drasnighta said:

They do not.

Only the defender can spend the scatter to generate its effect.

And in the case of Sloane, she is the attacker when she spends it.

- There are multiple rules in play here (All found on Page 4 of the RRG, under "Defense Tokens"). The rules are in Bold, and my responses follow in italics.

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below

- the effects are not generated because Sloane is spending them, both as an attacker, and, spending them during the "resolve attack effects" step. Either of those would be sufficient in stopping Sloane's effect from Generating the scatter. This is also backed up with:

• Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

- Fleet Commanders are a specific type of Upgrade Card. Sloane's effect is an Upgrade Card Effect. The defense token spent doe snot produce its normal effect, unless specifically stated to.

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

- Note, that the rule is "during an attack"... Not, "once by an attacker, once by a defender.", simply - once during an attack... So if Sloane spends the Scatter - which she does, first, during the attack, (as 'resolve attack effects" happens before "spend defense tokens"), then the Scatter cannot be Spent again by the defender - it has already been spent this attack.

• The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

- Hypothetically, if a Squadron had two Scatters, and you spent one of them with Sloane, it would be able to spend the other to remove any and all damage... However, as the die was spent to trigger Sloane, that die doesn't exist to be cancelled, and the net effect would, essentially be - "no damage, both spent." - The restriction here about spending redundant tokens is on the Defender, and as stated above, Sloane's spending is by the Attacker - so it does not apply to the limit.

I hope that sheds some light to the reasoning why.

I wish someone would convince the TO for Nationals at the NOVA Open about this logic. Even after presented with all the evidence above he is still ruling that the defender can use the effects of a defense token that is spent by Sloane's ability.

You can print the post from @Drasnighta and use this (should be as much worth as a rulebook imo). He even has the quotes from the RRG in it, with everything you need.

Or you can show him the RRG. Page 4. and he can read it on his own.

It could be, that the judges/marshal/TO know something about the intention of the card that we do not know right now. And maybe the FAQ will change it. And the last word on a tournament is always from TO/Marshal side. No matter how wrong it might be.
But stricly by the rules it is (right now) the way @Drasnighta already wrote.

59 minutes ago, Overdawg said:

I wish someone would convince the TO for Nationals at the NOVA Open about this logic. Even after presented with all the evidence above he is still ruling that the defender can use the effects of a defense token that is spent by Sloane's ability.

They think when the attacker spends it, the defender gets the effect of it being spent? Or that the defender can spend the token after it has been exhausted by Sloane?

41 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

They think when the attacker spends it, the defender gets the effect of it being spent? Or that the defender can spend the token after it has been exhausted by Sloane?

This was my question also....

45 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

They think when the attacker spends it, the defender gets the effect of it being spent? Or that the defender can spend the token after it has been exhausted by Sloane?

The TO has stated that when Sloane Spends it, the Defender gets the effect of it being Spent.

I have not seen a reasonable argument why in all of the responses...

Because I was the first respondant to that Facebook post in question. I've done all the work on that as I can.

In the end, He is the TO. And thus, his decision is Inviolate until such time as FFG says otherwise to him .

Just now, Drasnighta said:

The TO has stated that when Sloane Spends it, the Defender gets the effect of it being Spent.

I have not seen a reasonable argument why in all of the responses...

Because I was the first respondant to that Facebook post in question. I've done all the work on that as I can.

In the end, He is the TO. And thus, his decision is Inviolate until such time as FFG says otherwise to him .

What?

So if Ciena attacks my Shara with 6 dice from Howl+FC and Ciena Sloanes my Scatter, I get the benefit of the Scatter without me discarding the Scatter? So Sloane is essentially forcing me to spend my defense tokens with the full effect?

**** that. Get a **** Marshal and overrule him.

11 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

**** that. Get a **** Marshal and overrule him.

He is the Organizer/Marshal of the Event in question. There is no higher authority than him at this event.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

He is the Organizer/Marshal of the Event in question. There is no higher authority than him at this event.

Well... that sucks. Maybe hit up FFG?

At this point I'd try to round up several players that see the rules straight, and try to convince the guy of his error. There's strength in numbers...lol.

2 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

At this point I'd try to round up several players that see the rules straight, and try to convince the guy of his error. There's strength in numbers...lol.

Not when the TO can remove you from a tournament. But you could also martyr yourself...

30 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

At this point I'd try to round up several players that see the rules straight, and try to convince the guy of his error. There's strength in numbers...lol.

Tried...not working.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

But you could also martyr yourself...

For such an egregarious violation, I certainly would. If this ruling was placed in front of me, I'd end the game on the spot, and walk out.

Why bother playing in a game where the rules don't matter?