So after some discussion last night with @Valca discussing alternatives to bidding for initiative we thought that activation count as opposed to points could be used. The fleet with the fewest activations would have the option of choosing first or last.
What potential pitfalls would this present? It would certainly change the list building mechanic and allow fleets to use all their points as opposed to working to an initiative bid. Any way thoughts?
I don't see this changing much. I mean it would be really nice to guarantee you can use your objectives, but if you bring 4 activations thinking it'll guarantee you get to pick, you're still getting smacked down by the guy who brings 6 activations because he doesn't care.
How did you see that meshing with objectives?
Just make it random with a bit more favor for someone who fewer points (example in roll of with a D6 which be give +1 to the person with fewer points). That automatically stops someone from building for the initiative and forces everyone to build balanced list for the initiative and objectives.
What's the issue with the bid? If you need to go first, you make sure you go first. We can build well to both first and second player currently, what advantage does randomly not getting to use your list for its intended purpose? This is a strategy, bid for what you want (even if what you want is second player)
33 minutes ago, Darthain said:What's the issue with the bid? If you need to go first, you make sure you go first. We can build well to both first and second player currently, what advantage does randomly not getting to use your list for its intended purpose? This is a strategy, bid for what you want (even if what you want is second player)
People want to go first due to the nature of one trick pony lists like triple tap demolisher. as that becomes a meta staple people start bidding more and more to go first. if those lists go second or get out activated they lose the majority of their potency.
31 minutes ago, Darthain said:What's the issue with the bid? If you need to go first, you make sure you go first. We can build well to both first and second player currently, what advantage does randomly not getting to use your list for its intended purpose? This is a strategy, bid for what you want (even if what you want is second player)
The issue isn't with the bid, but what is advantageous. As is, the way the game works, the intent of the designers was that the disadvantaged player is the one with less fleet points, ergo that player gets a bump by choosing initiative. The thing is, having more activations is wildly more advantageous than having, say, 5 less points than your opponent.
2 hours ago, jamie nasmyth said:So after some discussion last night with @Valca discussing alternatives to bidding for initiative we thought that activation count as opposed to points could be used. The fleet with the fewest activations would have the option of choosing first or last.
What potential pitfalls would this present? It would certainly change the list building mechanic and allow fleets to use all their points as opposed to working to an initiative bid. Any way thoughts?
I proposed this change a while back, and proposed it again during the great activation calamity of '17. Some issues people brought up were valid, including some high activation lists still don't care about going first or 2nd, but I still feel like it's a positive change. With the new FAQ, though, it's probably worth seeing how that goes and reassess before changing anything further (looking at you, Relay).
3 minutes ago, BergerFett said:People want to go first due to the nature of one trick pony lists like triple tap demolisher. as that becomes a meta staple people start bidding more and more to go first. if those lists go second or get out activated they lose the majority of their potency.
Then don't let them triple tap a juicy target, use lesser targets to block paths, leave bomber screens ready for demo to drive into for squad phase and get shot. But don't try to randomly veto someone's list, that's silly.
4 minutes ago, Darthain said:Then don't let them triple tap a juicy target, use lesser targets to block paths, leave bomber screens ready for demo to drive into for squad phase and get shot. But don't try to randomly veto someone's list, that's silly.
Well, the triple tap was a problem. Or rather, the fact that if you had initiative and out-activated your opponent, a Demolisher could get the triple-tap on almost any target without fear of reprisal from that ship (well, a bad angle might leave you in the opposite arc of a Home One MC80 or an exceptionally lucky assault frigate*). Hence the FAQ changing the window for the Demolisher title.
Still, I don't think this change accomplishes that much- as people have come to understand activation advantage more, it's likely people would still race for high activation lists even if it meant giving up being first player against. And frankly, bidding points would still be important for mirror matches.
*Lucky in the sense that assault frigates getting triple tapped usually do not survive to shoot back.
Demo is still a threat, as it should be, the change just means it cannot approach from outside threat to close range. It has to ve at LR risk. Generally speaking flying well means not much is changed by this, but demo hasn't been a serious threat since flotillas smeared points way out.
1 hour ago, Darthain said:What's the issue with the bid? If you need to go first, you make sure you go first. We can build well to both first and second player currently, what advantage does randomly not getting to use your list for its intended purpose? This is a strategy, bid for what you want (even if what you want is second player)
From a game design perspective it's a bit odd. The ability to choose 1st or 2nd player is a huge boon in Armada. Armada may be the only game where 1st/2nd player choice is so integral but also have to ability to guarantee it (compared to say X-Wing which is counteracted by PS and game mechanics). Nothing exists to counter the bid except to bid more.
30 minutes ago, Darthain said:Demo is still a threat, as it should be, the change just means it cannot approach from outside threat to close range. It has to ve at LR risk. Generally speaking flying well means not much is changed by this, but demo hasn't been a serious threat since flotillas smeared points way out.
Pretty much what I meant. The Clonisher might not have been as big a force in the metagame at present, but it and builds like it are a large reason Flotillas were created.
What this system would do would eliminate the possibility of ever getting a first/last unless the player with less activations chooses to let it happen.
1 hour ago, Darthain said:Then don't let them triple tap a juicy target, use lesser targets to block paths, leave bomber screens ready for demo to drive into for squad phase and get shot. But don't try to randomly veto someone's list, that's silly.
agree. was just explaining the "issue"
Just now, BergerFett said:agree. was just explaining the "issue"
Demo is such a huge problem it has never won worlds
nerf AFMKII
demo is kind of a newb stomper. and dont kid yourself its won some pretty big events.
demo is a piece in the game that you HAVE to be ready for. There are not many but Demo is maybe the poster child for "models i need to have a plan for"
2 hours ago, BergerFett said:demo is kind of a newb stomper. and dont kid yourself its won some pretty big events.
demo is a piece in the game that you HAVE to be ready for. There are not many but Demo is maybe the poster child for "models i need to have a plan for"
You need a plan but not a specific list to beat it. To me the Demolisher game mechanic is a bit weird one since it too easy to use it and many player fall into the trap of sending it out alone and it end up killing something far less valuable then itself and then get killed.
Overall I don't like mechanic that break the flow of the game too much, in the same way I don't like the last/first ability.
In a second edition they could just make the movement and shooting separate phases. Another interesting thing you could do is that ships must shoot in the order they activated so are marked as such when they move. Makes for some tactical decision in the movement phase. The Demolisher title could then just put the ship first in the que automatically or be totally reworked.
Edited by jorgen_cabanything that breaks fundamental core rules is usually very very good regardless of how expensive it is, this is true in almost any game i've played.
I have often wondered if tractor beams are good enough to slow the new demo down to where he may not get the triple tap, just the double tap.
A lot of variables to really try and figure it out without table time but knowing how i flew it and how others ive watch are, It was usually just in range after the engine tech for the attack.
the change brings demo even closer to the fight, so if the norm is still to "just be in" tractor beams could potential take a triple tap and turn it to a double sometimes even a single....