Ryyk Blades (Jabba's Realm) allow the hero to convert surges to damage. The Vibrogenerator (Return to Hoth) attachment allows the attacker to, when he declares his attack, get minus two surges for the attack to also get plus two damage for that attack.

Are both of these considered modifiers? Could you convert surges before you apply the minus two? How do they interact?

It seems by RAW like they'd both trigger during step 4 and thus the attacking player would get to choose the order. This would mean that one could trigger the vibrogenerator, convert all the surges to damage with the ryyk blades then get 2 damage for 'free' since the vibrogenerator adds damage even with no surges. Of course as is often the case I'd suggest making a rules query with FFG since this is the sort of thing they might not want to allow.

The triggers for Ryyk Blades and Vibrogenerator are not the same.

Vibrogenerator triggers when you declare the attack.

Ryyk Blades triggers after the dice have been rolled.

1. You declare an attack and decide to use Vibrogenerator.

2. You roll the dice.

3. 2 Surge results (if any) are removed. 2 Damage results are added.

4. Ryyk Blades can then remove any remaining Surge results, producing Damage results instead.

The negative surges and +2 damage will be added to the attack results during declare target step. (Because the timing is explicit.)

As soon as surges are added (after dice rerolls when the dice results get added), the surges and negative surges annihilate each other. You can't have the cake and eat it too.

In the same way, Weakened adds a negative surge, so it can annihilate a surge from dice results, or a surge that is added during step 4.

Ryyk Blades is adding or removing symbols or accuracy and is "while attacking", so it happens during step 4 - attacker.

3 hours ago, Majushi said:

1. You declare an attack and decide to use Vibrogenerator.

2. You roll the dice.

3. 2 Surge results (if any) are removed. 2 Damage results are added.

4. Ryyk Blades can then remove any remaining Surge results, producing Damage results instead.

This is definitely not how it works. 1->3->2->4 might be the case (it probably is, that's the way that plays the best) but this implies an unstated subprocess during step 4(the one in the RRG, not the one in this list).

My problem with the 1-3-2-4 process is that if results such as -2 surges and "while attacking" effects can be applied or triggered outside step 4 then I don't see much point in making step 4 explicit. The way I've always looked at step 4 is it's where you check all the effects that are active (the optional and the already triggered alike) and sum up the effects.

Step 4 is where you add or remove symbols or accuracy (to or from attack and defense results) by abilities that have timing of "while attacking" or "while defending" (or similar). If an ability has some other timing, or is a surge ability, it does not happen during step 4. For example the spend surges step can still add symbols.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1631857/ability-resolution-order-during-attacks

Apparently negative and positive symbols remove each other as soon as both are present, but evades only cancel surges at the end of step 4.

So the FAQ answer to a question about Weakened and Cunning sheds some light with some implications.

"Q: A figure with “Cunning” has the Weakened condition. While defending, it rolls a [evade] symbol. Does it get to apply its +1[block] from “Cunning” before the -1[evade] from the Weakened condition is applied?

A: No. Conditions are treated as mission rules for the purposes of timing conflicts, so the -1[evade] triggers before the defender has a chance to use “Cunning.”"

First, even a persistent condition with a subtraction of symbols is not applied until step 4 of the attack. So both abilities (Vibrogenerator and Ryyk Blades) will not be applied until step 4 of the attack. Secondly, the only thing stopping the defender from using Cunning is that the mission rule must resolved first per the timing structure of the game. So what if both effects have the same timing? For Rebel player effects, the Rebel players get to decide.

Even though Vibrogenerator is "triggered" when the attack is declared, the symbols are not applied until step 4. This would be at the same time as the Ryyk Blades conversion. Unless there is some intent to have previously triggered abilities resolved before new ones can trigger, it would seem the Rebel players get to decide the order of resolution. I'll send the rules email.

Thanks for the responses everyone!

When you get to the point where you want to see how many surges you have to convert using the Ryyk Blades, two will immediately have been removed by the -2 surges already put in place by the Vibrogenerator. There is no timing issue where the rebel can choose which to resolve, because the Vibrogenerator has already been resolved and the -2 surges is already in effect before being able to trigger the Ryyk Blades conversion.

17 minutes ago, Majushi said:

When you get to the point where you want to see how many surges you have to convert using the Ryyk Blades, two will immediately have been removed by the -2 surges already put in place by the Vibrogenerator. There is no timing issue where the rebel can choose which to resolve, because the Vibrogenerator has already been resolved and the -2 surges is already in effect before being able to trigger the Ryyk Blades conversion.

If this was the case, that would be the answer to the Cunning and Weakened question found in the FAQ. That isn't the answer, the answer instead is that because the condition is a mission rule, it must be applied first. This implies that if weakened was not a mission rule, it could be applied at the same time or even after Cunning, depending on the classification.

Cunning and Weaken have different triggers than Ryyk Blades.

They are always on.

Ryyk Blades is an optional trigger.

You are treating them all like they are the same, which they are not.

when you come to choose to trigger Ryyk Blades, Weaken, Cunning and Vibrogenerator Modifiers have already been applied.

edit; to be clearer: Cunning and Weaken needed clarification and a timing resolution because they both occur simultaneously. Vibrogenerator triggers at the same time are these. Ryyk Blades do not, as they are an optional ability.

3 hours ago, a1bert said:

Step 4 is where you add or remove symbols or accuracy (to or from attack and defense results) by abilities that have timing of "while attacking" or "while defending" (or similar). If an ability has some other timing, or is a surge ability, it does not happen during step 4. For example the spend surges step can still add symbols.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1631857/ability-resolution-order-during-attacks

Apparently negative and positive symbols remove each other as soon as both are present, but evades only cancel surges at the end of step 4.

Interesting; I had not been interpreting Ryyk Blades this way. Does this mean that you can essentially ignore evades when using the conversion ability of Ryyk Blades?

Maybe I misrepresented evades too... I should check what I wrote in the thread.

(I think we can agree the interaction of Ryyd Blades and evades is not that clear.)

Roll With It (Jyn) and Military Efficiency (Gideon) have abilities that can convert blocks into evades. Combat Coat can convert evades back into blocks. So, I expect evades only cancel surges at the end of step 4 and not instantly.

7 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Roll With It (Jyn) and Military Efficiency (Gideon) have abilities that can convert blocks into evades.

And I guess that implies that evades cancel surges after any conversions have been applied?

3 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Even though Vibrogenerator is "triggered" when the attack is declared, the symbols are not applied until step 4.

What makes you think so?

47 minutes ago, a1bert said:

What makes you think so?

That is when modifiers are applied. Step 4 is labeled "Apply Modifiers".

50 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

And I guess that implies that evades cancel surges after any conversions have been applied?

Technically the Attacker resolves his effects first, so yes. Any conversions the attacker can do would be applied before the defender can apply their evades.

2 hours ago, Majushi said:

Cunning and Weaken have different triggers than Ryyk Blades.

They are always on.

Ryyk Blades is an optional trigger.

You are treating them all like they are the same, which they are not.

when you come to choose to trigger Ryyk Blades, Weaken, Cunning and Vibrogenerator Modifiers have already been applied.

edit; to be clearer: Cunning and Weaken needed clarification and a timing resolution because they both occur simultaneously. Vibrogenerator triggers at the same time are these. Ryyk Blades do not, as they are an optional ability.

The trigger does not matter. Nothing is applied until the Apply Modifiers step of making an attack. At this point, every ability that has modifiers attempts to apply their modifiers at once. We have the timing structure to tell us what order these modifiers are applied in.

I think the chief take away from this is that the "steps of an attack" section of the RRG could have been written much better.

Basically this comes down to a question of what the attack results look like after you've declared you're using vibrogenerator: does the attack already have +2D and -2S or do you just recall that vibrogenerator has been triggered. I've always thought of it as working in the second way (for the reasons I explained earlier) but I can see why it might work in the first way.

With regards to evades I think the precedent from existing cards should mean that ryyk blades can work around them, ryyk blades trigger before roll with it, military efficiency and combat coat (because of conflict timing) (or alternatively at the same time as balanced hilt and similar effects) so if they trigger before evades then so should ryyk blades.

If you interpret the Apply Modifiers step literally, you should also interpret the Vibrogenerator ability literally. Read it and do what it does. It says to apply -2 surges and +2 damage to the attack results during the declare target step. There is no other timing specified. Thus, the symbols already exist in the attack/defense pool when you enter step 4 of the attack.

Even if you would rebel and not do that, you can only choose the resolution order of your abilities that have the same trigger. Thus, the symbols added by Vibrogenerator will get added first, before you get to resolve "while attacking/defending" abilities that add or remove symbols or accuracy in the timing conflict resolution order.

(And yes, Ryyk Blades can work around evades, but not around negative surges added before step-4-attacker timing, for example from Weakened and Vibrogenerator.)

There are a lot of examples that show that effects happen immediately when they are performed. The attack and defense pool is no different. (The attack steps could also be written better.) As far as I understand, the comment in Apply Modifiers (If players have any effects that gain or remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time.) refer to abilities that do not have explicit timing otherwise.

Quote

· Any ability that is resolved "while attacking" or "while defending" can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
-- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack. (also: abilities that remove dice)
-- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
-- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack. (add or remove symbols or accuracy)

If only Ryyk Blades ability had been written as;

~ 1 Damage. (You may use this ability as many times as you wish each time you attack)

Not to necro a dead thread, but @Stompburger has brought up this same topic over here , in the main IA forum (instead of the Rules subforum). A lot of Ryyk Blade damage potentially hangs in the balance, so I thought I'd flag it in case any of our resident rules gurus wanted to weigh in (or re-weigh in).

For my own part, when I originally looked at the RRG, I placed a lot of stock in the "any effects" language for Attack Phase 4. On the one hand, I can see the merit to saying that the general rule applies only if there's not a particular trigger (and the exceptions laid out in @a1bert 's most recent reply seem to state as much). On the other hand, the "following exceptions" include exceptions for abilities that trigger during attack phase 2 (adding dice), attack phase 3 (rerolling dice), and attack phase 4 (modifying dice), but not during attack phase 1 (declaring target), and it seems significant to me that there are no exceptions identified before dice are rolled (except for the "adding dice" exception).

I had always assumed that there aren't any "attack results" until dice are rolled into the pool (and that the attack results aren't "set" until after Attack Phase 4 is completed). I've also never considered the possibility of adding "negative attack results" to attack results (as I always read "-2 surge" as "minus 2 surges," not "negative 2 surges"), and I'm not sure the RRG ever clarifies which reading is correct. I also didn't see any inherent RAW conflict between triggering "any effects that . . . remove icons" during Attack Phase 1, but " applying " those effects during Attack Phase 4, which is when the RRG says they're supposed to be "applied." But again, that's just my two cents and I'm certainly not a rules expert.

While I'm leaning that way, I'm far from certain, so I'd appreciate any thoughts/discussion (either here or in the other thread). Feel free to lay into me if I'm off the reservation.

Hmm. I think that's a good point. Just because you need to declare the effect beforehand doesn't mean that it applies it any earlier. The effect doesn't take place until the step when "any effects that add or remove icons are applied," even though you have to commit to the effect when you declare the attack. Any static effects like an built-in +1 damage or +1 Evade are technically there all the time, but that doesn't mean that they apply any sooner than other effects from the same player.

Vibrogenerator is already good enough. It doesn't need to be even better by pairing it with the Ryyk Blades and abusing ambiguity.

for me it's clear there should be a downside to the generator, and it's in the form of a negative surge value. Not a "circumventable surge reduction"

5 hours ago, Majushi said:

Vibrogenerator is already good enough. It doesn't need to be even better by pairing it with the Ryyk Blades and abusing ambiguity.

for me it's clear there should be a downside to the generator, and it's in the form of a negative surge value. Not a "circumventable surge reduction"

While I agree with you in principle (which is why I described this as a "cheat" in the write-up I did), my own take on that was that it was more of a rules-as-intended objection. And I'm not sure that objection is a strong enough reason to categorically disallow it when the rules-as-written seem to make it at least one plausible interpretation.

The other thing to bear in mind is that even with the more overpowered interpretation of the Ryyk Blade-Vibrogenerator synergy, it's still not going to be the "go-to melee weapon of choice" for most heroes because its attack pool reflects a hero's might pool and there's only a literal handful of heroes (5 with Drokkatta) with 3-dice might attributes, and two of them (Biv and what we've seen of Drokkata) have to give up at least some of their class abilities if they're run as melee characters.

The ones who will benefit most are Gaarkhan and Onar (I feel like Shyla still wants the Electrostaff with the Extended Haft, "Swords Dance" and "Full Sweep" for up to 9 "free" Cleave with Reach per activation), but that's mostly because they can stack up to two more combat effects on top of the synergy. Both can self-focus (with some help from the IP), Gaarkhan can add +2D while wounded, and Onar can add another Red die. There's no doubt that's crazy damage potential, even if the Vibrogenerator can't be "cheated" onto it. But for story and thematic reasons, if there were 2 heroes that could just level opponents with sheer might, it makes sense that it'd be the Wookiee and the Aqualish, right?