2 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

Anyone have an interpretation of the title: Dark Hands of Heaven?

Its He Who Should Not Be Named's hand.

the smoke at the end is foreshadowing.

Or just a really big cremation pile.

8 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

In other words

annoying traditionalist busybodies.

In other words:

Ghostbusters.

=p

4 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

In other words:

Ghostbusters.

=p

heh,

ghostbusting was always more a Falcon clan schtick.

The Phoenix were always more Inquisitors.

No one expects them. Ordo Ignis Pullum.

9 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

heh,

ghostbusting was always more a Falcon clan schtick.

The Phoenix were always more Inquisitors.

Never even heard of the Falcon clan, but I can see why people feel like the Phoenix gets a really bad schtick.

I honestly reckon I could write a really cool short fiction for them though. Ever played the game Shadow Hearts on the PS2? One of the first things you do is come across a village where every now and then a ship is just disappeared at sea, and it's because of the vengeful spirit of a girl who was drowned and became a monster, who haunts the village. Sounds like a job for the Phoenix! Or Falcon apparently. But should be Phoenix =p

It's nothing new for L5R. Everyone and their dog developed their "cooler" "more uniquer" "totally badasser" versions of something that was supposed to be a shtick of the other Clan. We have like 3 different inquisitions in the setting, for the Pete's sake (Kuni, Asako and scorpion kuroiban). Phoenix in matters of Spirituality is kind of like Lion in matters of military - if you want to show off that your magical tradition or magic-police is COOL and BADASS, you need to make a point about how they are cooler and better and whazazaamer than the Phoenix.

5 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Never even heard of the Falcon clan, but I can see why people feel like the Phoenix gets a really bad schtick.

I honestly reckon I could write a really cool short fiction for them though. Ever played the game Shadow Hearts on the PS2? One of the first things you do is come across a village where every now and then a ship is just disappeared at sea, and it's because of the vengeful spirit of a girl who was drowned and became a monster, who haunts the village. Sounds like a job for the Phoenix! Or Falcon apparently. But should be Phoenix =p

6 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I have SH Covenant, that count?

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

It's nothing new for L5R. Everyone and their dog developed their "cooler" "more uniquer" "totally badasser" versions of something that was supposed to be a shtick of the other Clan. We have like 3 different inquisitions in the setting, for the Pete's sake (Kuni, Asako and scorpion kuroiban). Phoenix in matters of Spirituality is kind of like Lion in matters of military - if you want to show off that your magical tradition or magic-police is COOL and BADASS, you need to make a point about how they are cooler and better and whazazaamer than the Phoenix.

Yes, well thankfully they never came up with more badass economists than the Yasuki.

Daidoji Trade Council.

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

It's nothing new for L5R. Everyone and their dog developed their "cooler" "more uniquer" "totally badasser" versions of something that was supposed to be a shtick of the other Clan. We have like 3 different inquisitions in the setting, for the Pete's sake (Kuni, Asako and scorpion kuroiban). Phoenix in matters of Spirituality is kind of like Lion in matters of military - if you want to show off that your magical tradition or magic-police is COOL and BADASS, you need to make a point about how they are cooler and better and whazazaamer than the Phoenix.

The Tsukai Sagasu ARE cooler than the Inquisitors.

older too I think,conceptwise

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I have SH Covenant, that count?

That's a good game too, but the original nails the absolute balls out of creepy horror atmosphere, where the second often goes into outright camp and silliness.

But we digress.

My point is that Yuri to me represents one of the jobs of the Phoenix clan in a world where the guardian spirit of a village growing corrupted because of missed rituals isn't some abstract concept that charming and scientifically ignorant peasants cooked up, as a real world reader would be forgiven for imagining... It means that there is an invisible god **** boss monster running around that someone needs to appease or smoke, sharpish. And while a certain level of shugenja could deal with that, there are times when you need to send in the big guns. Dealing with spiritual matters is no joke in a world where "spiritual matters" are verifiable reality!

1 minute ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

That's a good game too, but the original nails the absolute balls out of creepy horror atmosphere, where the second often goes into outright camp and silliness.

But we digress.

My point is that Yuri to me represents one of the jobs of the Phoenix clan in a world where the guardian spirit of a village growing corrupted because of missed rituals isn't some abstract concept that charming and scientifically ignorant peasants cooked up, as a real world reader would be forgiven for imagining... It means that there is an invisible god **** boss monster running around that someone needs to appease or smoke, sharpish. And while a certain level of shugenja could deal with that, there are times when you need to send in the big guns. Dealing with spiritual matters is no joke in a world where "spiritual matters" are verifiable reality!

Agreed, we need more of this for the Phoenix.

6 minutes ago, WHW said:

Daidoji Trade Council.

Those posers? They're just a bunch of haters and imitators. OG Money Crane for life. Accept no substitutes.

6 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

That's a good game too, but the original nails the absolute balls out of creepy horror atmosphere, where the second often goes into outright camp and silliness.

But we digress.

My point is that Yuri to me represents one of the jobs of the Phoenix clan in a world where the guardian spirit of a village growing corrupted because of missed rituals isn't some abstract concept that charming and scientifically ignorant peasants cooked up, as a real world reader would be forgiven for imagining... It means that there is an invisible god **** boss monster running around that someone needs to appease or smoke, sharpish. And while a certain level of shugenja could deal with that, there are times when you need to send in the big guns. Dealing with spiritual matters is no joke in a world where "spiritual matters" are verifiable reality!

And sometimes you first need to kick its *** and subdue it, so your Bushi have something to do during the adventure, too : P.
Interesting note that in Chinese mythology (don't remember if it also holds for Japan, but probably), a lot of "evil" and "antagonistic" gods and spiritual entities are less evil and more "misbehaving", and often require a slap on the wrist to get their stuff together and reembrace harmony.

7 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Their stories need to be painted with a more spiritual or high fantasy brush IMO.

Personally I'd prefer a more spiritual but low fantasy brush for both shugenja and the Phoenix.

Yeah High Fantasy doesn't necessarily convey the very...spiritualism-from-below, folklore-is-real everyday mysticism. @Kinzen is there any coined terminology for this kind of...thing?

You could say that it's less high fantasy and more of a low-moderate but wide and spread fantasy, so to say. Not columns of high magic and elves, but smattering of a prayer and spiritualism on everything.

Just now, Suzume Tomonori said:

Personally I'd prefer a more spiritual but low fantasy brush for both shugenja and the Phoenix.

I think the 'low fantasy' tone has done the phoenix more harm than good storywise. Spirituality for the 'magic clan' needs to be well ...magical

3 minutes ago, WHW said:

Yeah High Fantasy doesn't necessarily convey the very...spiritualism-from-below, folklore-is-real everyday mysticism. @Kinzen is there any coined terminology for this kind of...thing?

You could say that it's less high fantasy and more of a low-moderate but wide and spread fantasy, so to say. Not columns of high magic and elves, but smattering of a prayer and spiritualism on everything.

Omnipresent spirituality is a good goal. It deserves more play than its gotten.

There is a debate to be had about high fantasy vs. low, and it comes down a lot to personal preference for the kind of setting you want, I think. Though at the very least high-fantasy shugenja flying over battlefields hurling fireballs is more exciting and probably a better seller, I'll admit.

But I'd like to see something like a story where there's a group of emerald magistates and it's the Shiba who always holds up the group praying and leaving offerings at every tiny little shrine or statue of a fortune on the road, just because as a Phoenix respecting every tiny kami was the way he was raised. That sort of thing is tiny, but can lend itself to a clan identity.

About the "Dark Hand," I vaguely wondered if that had something to do with right hand / left hand / underhand, etc.

1 minute ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

There is a debate to be had here, and it comes down a lot to personal preferencea for the kind of setting you want, I think. Though at the very least high-fantasy shugenja flying over battlefields hurling fireballs is more exciting and probably a better seller, I'll admit.

But I'd like to see something like a story where there's a group of emerald magistates and it's the Shiba who always holds up the group praying and leaving offerings at every tiny little shrine or statue of a fortune on the road, just because as a Phoenix respecting every tiny kami was the way he was raised. That sort of thing is tiny, but can lend itself to a clan identity.

To clarify a bit,

I mean that the connection with the kami and interaction with same I think is important for the Phoenix.

Less fireball more spirit interaction in short

9 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

About the "Dark Hand," I vaguely wondered if that had something to do with right hand / left hand / underhand, etc.

You forgot the Pimp Hand.

53 minutes ago, WHW said:

Yeah High Fantasy doesn't necessarily convey the very...spiritualism-from-below, folklore-is-real everyday mysticism. @Kinzen is there any coined terminology for this kind of...thing?

Real life? :-P Seriously, what we're talking about is nothing more or less than what people believed (and in some cases still believe), in this world, where there are no shugenja flying through the air hurling fireballs. And not just in Japan; same thing goes for Europe with its fairy folklore and so forth. I actually think that a Rokugan with frequent yokai and angry river spirits and so forth would be a lot lower fantasy than the AEG approach of God-Beasts and all the rest.

("Folk belief" or "folk religion" are probably the terms you're looking for, though.)

Mmmmmmmmmmm, I'm trying to find a name fot this kind of setting aesthetic :<

"Mystic" fantasy is how I refer to it.