1 minute ago, Tonbo Karasu said:And the people who looked at a heretical cult and said "This could be a problem, execute the ringleaders."
Also the people who said "That Minor clan has been taken over by a Shuten Doji, we must kill them all."
'what have you done for me lately?'
Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:'what have you done for me lately?'
Some people seem to think sometimes that the Phoenix aren't warriors, or are somehow strawman pacifists.
9 minutes ago, WHW said:Whis is pretty much never touched upon because it would require admitting and working with a idea that not everything spiritual in the empire is
a) Shadowlands related
b) sexy and able to reproduce with humans
Phoenix is the clan that would benefit the most from injecting more folklore, yokai and "everyday spirituality" into the setting. Without it, they are mostly silly or asshattish elemental benders who exist mostly to be either plot devices or FORBBIDEN KNOWLEDGE IS COOL.
You really hit the nail on the head with this. I want to like the Phoenix but they've always had something unapproachable about them, and this puts it clearly why. It would really help to make them stand out and not be so story-wise obnoxious if they handled more folklore matters.
3 minutes ago, Kinzen said:Exactly. You can't write the Phoenix well unless you also write well the stuff the Phoenix are supposed to deal with. And the setting has often fallen down on that point, hard.
Yeah. There is no point in following the "religious" (eastern approach towards religion is hard to pin down in few words, and i feel that "religious" might invoke more of a "church and pope" image than what i mean here) conduct the Phoenix estabilished and encourage for the audience, if the audience is not given evidence and reason to not think its pointless.
If you never saw a god of river throw a fit because peasants stopped doing the festival a Phoenix designed to appease it and everyone in the village might starve, then you probably will not really consider Phoenix job important.
Just now, Tonbo Karasu said:Some people seem to think sometimes that the Phoenix aren't warriors, or are somehow strawman pacifists.
2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:
That is as much portrayal as perception.
They can be better
5 minutes ago, WHW said:Yeah. There is no point in following the "religious" (eastern approach towards religion is hard to pin down in few words, and i feel that "religious" might invoke more of a "church and pope" image than what i mean here) conduct the Phoenix estabilished and encourage for the audience, if the audience is not given evidence and reason to not think its pointless.
If you never saw a god of river throw a fit because peasants stopped doing the festival a Phoenix designed to appease it and everyone in the village might starve, then you probably will not really consider Phoenix job important.
You are probably looking for the word 'spiritual' in this context.
4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:You are probably looking for the word 'spiritual' in this context.
That -- but also not just that. As I've been ranting about in another thread, the game has historically done a pretty abysmal job of representing Rokugani religion overall, except the "kill stuff with magic" facet of it. Fortunism, Shinseism, and ancestor worship also get massively short-changed, with the result that the people whose defining attribute is supposed to be dealing with those things wind up shafted. The Phoenix get this in the face because their whole clan schtick is about religion, but it's a problem for shugenja throughout the Empire, and monks, too.
I'm hoping for a lot of things for Phoenix this time around. It'd be super nice to be right and having that being right mean something in a conflict.
But to the topic overall, I really liked it. I have a sinking suspicion that we're building up a big Shadowlands threat (mostly the mention of Lost despite Lost always being a thing) but I think this is a really good launching off point for the story. We definitely have a lot of things going on for the Children of Hida and I look forward to where that goes.
Overall I really liked the story but I'm not sure if I would call it my favorite. I was kind of hoping we would see more with the Crab than a big battle but I am very glad that they showed Kisada to have a firm understanding of tactics. I really hope he sticks around this time and they don't do what they originally did with him.
As for Yakamo, I'd be happy if he dies. I've never liked him or Hitomi. Satsu was a vastly more interesting character than either and he was around very briefly.
Very excited to see what their cards will be like next week.
1 minute ago, Kinzen said:That -- but also not just that. As I've been ranting about in another thread, the game has historically done a pretty abysmal job of representing Rokugani religion overall, except the "kill stuff with magic" facet of it. Fortunism, Shinseism, and ancestor worship also get massively short-changed, with the result that the people whose defining attribute is supposed to be dealing with those things wind up shafted. The Phoenix get this in the face because their whole clan schtick is about religion, but it's a problem for shugenja throughout the Empire, and monks, too.
How to resolve the issue given the short fiction format is the question.
If you want to write an L5R novel, though, I'd buy it
I haz brain lag today, so I will try to aim for brevity:
You dont need to elaborate on the fine details of spirituality and religious treatises to present it in the short fiction format. The genre L5R tried to emulate has usually an approach towards religion and spirituality where they are ingrained into the everyday life at level so basic, that they should infuse pretty much anything with a soft, gentle touch.
1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:How to resolve the issue given the short fiction format is the question.
Wordcount constraints are definitely an issue -- but I think the real hurdle is that you can't write what you don't understand, and it's pretty clear that a good many of AEG's writers didn't understand it. You don't need entire plots or infodumps to get the material across; religion would pervade the characters' everyday lives, and noting that in passing would add up over time.
Yeah, it's unfair to call it or suggest that the lacking portrayal of the subject at hand is a result of some ill will or conscious sabotage. Its just really hard for a modern western writer to capture the idea without "grokking" the eastern spiritualism; the modern split of secular and sacred is simply much more natural to write for, especially when people aim to do the more "kimono and tanto" (cloak and dagger) political game of daimyos style rokugan.
1 minute ago, Kinzen said:Wordcount constraints are definitely an issue -- but I think the real hurdle is that you can't write what you don't understand, and it's pretty clear that a good many of AEG's writers didn't understand it. You don't need entire plots or infodumps to get the material across; religion would pervade the characters' everyday lives, and noting that in passing would add up over time.
The Phoenix WOULD be an ideal vehicle for spiritual plot/subplot.
The Dragon have theirs, the Phoenix should get one, I hope this 'elemental imbalance' idea turns that way beyond the meishodo thing.
15 minutes ago, Kinzen said:That -- but also not just that. As I've been ranting about in another thread, the game has historically done a pretty abysmal job of representing Rokugani religion overall, except the "kill stuff with magic" facet of it. Fortunism, Shinseism, and ancestor worship also get massively short-changed, with the result that the people whose defining attribute is supposed to be dealing with those things wind up shafted. The Phoenix get this in the face because their whole clan schtick is about religion, but it's a problem for shugenja throughout the Empire, and monks, too.
I agree, there was some discussion about Shugenja being less priests, or more priests... and I think it's important we go the "more like priests" route and display this by making the kami more alive themselves. Rather than the Shugenja summoning some raw element "fire" to cast a spell, I'd love to see more of calling on the river spirit to overflow, or calling on the tree spirits to bind up the opponents weapons or wall off their escape. Give these kami their own life, and let the Shugenja be almost like magistrates with these forces. I prefer low-fantasy, but I think these things can be represented that way by simply being less rare but still really possible.
This also means including other non-shadowlands creatures that aren't tainted. It's a bit of a shift... and I would really HATE if a player came to me in L5R RPG to try and play a non-human character... but it's an important facet of the fiction to really tell the tale. There are the ratlings and naga, but we need kappa, tengu, and more represented.
It's similar in a way to the discussion about the Lion and who they are allegedly fighting all the time during 1000 years peace, and how it's not really believable they are great warriors, generals, and tacticians if their boarders are still the same size and they can't take Toshi Ranbo back in 500 years... There needs to be more war, and more other things going on that aren't just shadowlands and taint.
A good way to picture the difference between eastern and western approach to religion is the utility of a "temple":
For a modern western reader and writer, temple / church is the place where the religion happens, where you go to participate in the religious life.
For the religions and spirituality rokugan tried to emulate, temple is a place where priests live and where you go to bother them when you need them for something because they live in a state of perpetual purity making them reliable for spiritual functions requiring abovementioned purity. "Religion and spirituality" in the genres L5R tried to emulate IS everyday life.
4 minutes ago, shosuko said:I agree, there was some discussion about Shugenja being less priests, or more priests... and I think it's important we go the "more like priests" route and display this by making the kami more alive themselves. Rather than the Shugenja summoning some raw element "fire" to cast a spell, I'd love to see more of calling on the river spirit to overflow, or calling on the tree spirits to bind up the opponents weapons or wall off their escape. Give these kami their own life, and let the Shugenja be almost like magistrates with these forces. I prefer low-fantasy, but I think these things can be represented that way by simply being less rare but still really possible.
This also means including other non-shadowlands creatures that aren't tainted. It's a bit of a shift... and I would really HATE if a player came to me in L5R RPG to try and play a non-human character... but it's an important facet of the fiction to really tell the tale. There are the ratlings and naga, but we need kappa, tengu, and more represented.
It's similar in a way to the discussion about the Lion and who they are allegedly fighting all the time during 1000 years peace, and how it's not really believable they are great warriors, generals, and tacticians if their boarders are still the same size and they can't take Toshi Ranbo back in 500 years... There needs to be more war, and more other things going on that aren't just shadowlands and taint.
You just HAD to bring the Lion thing back up didn't you?
2 minutes ago, WHW said:A good way to picture the difference between eastern and western approach to religion is the utility of a "temple":
For a modern western reader and writer, temple / church is the place where the religion happens, where you go to participate in the religious life.
For the religions and spirituality rokugan tried to emulate, temple is a place where priests live and where you go to bother them when you need them for something because they live in a state of perpetual purity making them reliable for spiritual functions requiring abovementioned purity. "Religion and spirituality" in the genres L5R tried to emulate IS everyday life.
Most of my rpg characters had portable shrine for this reason.
38 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:You just HAD to bring the Lion thing back up didn't you?
Well sure - but isn't it a similar issue? What kind of military does the Lion run, where there is no outside enemy but we have 1000 years of peace? What kind of spiritual things does the Phoenix do if the elements are basically magic, and everything that isn't humans is Shadowlands taint?
1 minute ago, shosuko said:Well sure - but isn't it a similar issue? What kind of military does the Lion run, where there is no outside enemy but we have 1000 years of peace? What kind of spiritual things does the Phoenix do if the elements are basically magic, and everything that isn't humans is Shadowlands taint?
Eh, I think your perception of the Lion is slightly 'Inaccurate', but thats MY perception talking so..*shrug*
but I can't find much fault withe Phoenix argument.
Their stories need to be painted with a more spiritual or high fantasy brush IMO.
12 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:Eh, I think your perception of the Lion is slightly 'Inaccurate', but thats MY perception talking so..*shrug*
but I can't find much fault withe Phoenix argument.
Their stories need to be painted with a more spiritual or high fantasy brush IMO.
Normally I'm a fan of low-fantasy, but I think you're right. I wonder if the fiction could switch between the two so that we can get the best of both worlds?
Also - it's not really my perception of the Lion, that was from another discussion. They allegedly serve as the Emperor's military, and are these great tacticians - yet they haven't taken back 1 city from the Crane in over 500 years. Are they really great tacticians? Or do we just say they are? Are the Phoenix really the protectors of spirituality in the Empire? Or do we just say they are?
Meanwhile the Crane really are masters of court and dueling, the Scorpion are masters of secrets, the Crab are certainly powerful warriors as they fight in defense against the Shadowlands constantly. These clans have their "job" and actually perform their role in society. It will be great if the Phoenix can get more story time illustrating their real role in society, and hopefully cards that represent them well in the game too.
44 minutes ago, shosuko said:Normally I'm a fan of low-fantasy, but I think you're right. I wonder if the fiction could switch between the two so that we can get the best of both worlds?
Also - it's not really my perception of the Lion, that was from another discussion. They allegedly serve as the Emperor's military, and are these great tacticians - yet they haven't taken back 1 city from the Crane in over 500 years. Are they really great tacticians? Or do we just say they are? Are the Phoenix really the protectors of spirituality in the Empire? Or do we just say they are?
Meanwhile the Crane really are masters of court and dueling, the Scorpion are masters of secrets, the Crab are certainly powerful warriors as they fight in defense against the Shadowlands constantly. These clans have their "job" and actually perform their role in society. It will be great if the Phoenix can get more story time illustrating their real role in society, and hopefully cards that represent them well in the game too.
Where does the 500 year figure come from?
The Lion fight a different clan every century. The Crane wait until they are busy beating on the three Dragonfly who looked at them sideways and ask the emperor to give them back Toshi Ranbo.
3 minutes ago, Suzume Urusai said:The Lion fight a different clan every century. The Crane wait until they are busy beating on the three Dragonfly who looked at them sideways and ask the emperor to give them back Toshi Ranbo.
I think every year is probably more accurate.
No more Thousand Years of Peace. FFG is A Thousand Years of Conflict.
What better place to be a Crab? 
Loved the story but I may be biased. Loved that Kisada-sama was not portrayed as a belligerent, pig headed, brute (I still loved the old you too, oh mighty Fortune of Persistence). O-Ushi gets my vote for next champion. Sukune finally got some loving and respect from dear old dad I feel, which if he does get sacrificed again will make it all the more tragic. Yakamo... sadly, he's the bad stereotype that makes the rest of the clans think the Crab are a bunch of lunatics that have been staring off the edge of the world too long. 
Wondering if the Crab will be the first ones to get access to Nezumi. Blue Fur Tribe maybe?
So if each Champion's weakness is being exposed in these introduction fictions my feeling is that Kisada's "weakness" is his age.
Hotaru = inexperience
Toturi= indecisiveness
Yokuni= unrelatable to his people.