Has anyone experimented with allowing Reflect to be used with Melee weapons against non-energy ranged weapons (mainly low-tech thrown and projectile weapons)? Would it be reasonable to allow Reflect with shields (especially very durable ones with Cortosis) to be used even against blasters? How about using Parry with Brawl weapons (not unarmed) such as Cortosis Gauntlets?

I just imagine that a sword could be used to bat away thrown knives or arrows in the way the light saber bats away blister bolts, and Wonder Woman + Captain America has me thinking that a shield could be used with Reflect too. Likewise, cortosis covered hands could reasonably be used to Parry as effectively as a melee weapon (possibly including projectiles).

There is a shield gauntlet (similar to what Sabine uses in Rebels that allows you to use reflect) it is found in Keeping the Peace.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Has anyone experimented with allowing Reflect to be used with Melee weapons against non-energy ranged weapons (mainly low-tech thrown and projectile weapons)? Would it be reasonable to allow Reflect with shields (especially very durable ones with Cortosis) to be used even against blasters? How about using Parry with Brawl weapons (not unarmed) such as Cortosis Gauntlets?

I just imagine that a sword could be used to bat away thrown knives or arrows in the way the light saber bats away blister bolts, and Wonder Woman + Captain America has me thinking that a shield could be used with Reflect too. Likewise, cortosis covered hands could reasonably be used to Parry as effectively as a melee weapon (possibly including projectiles).

Unarmed parry is a thing as well, you just need to buy into martial artist, although technically it doesnt work with brawl weapons. Technically what you are looking for is already in the game the weapon quality is called defensive, although it adds setback it performs a similar function as does the talents defensive training / defensive stance and the maneuver guarded stance, all of these are the same thing. While technically not exactly the same as parry/unarmed parry they perform a similar function, as does does the reflection weapon quality for ranged weapons, which you often see on shields.

I think in Star Wars it's been written the way it has for balance reasons, but in other settings I think it would be perfectly reasonable.

Within the SW game I think it's also fine so long as it's part of an interesting concept for the campaign from the start. It would probably be really great in a campaign on Weik for example.

I'm still not sure what balance issue arises from allowing Cortosis Gauntlets to be used to Parry. I can understand not using Parry with bare hands (without the Martial Artist's talent), but the gauntlets are easily as durable and heavy as many Melee weapons.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I'm still not sure what balance issue arises from allowing Cortosis Gauntlets to be used to Parry. I can understand not using Parry with bare hands (without the Martial Artist's talent), but the gauntlets are easily as durable and heavy as many Melee weapons.

FWIW I agree but technically RAW you cannot parry with them even with unarmed parry. Unarmed parry specifies unarmed, and parry specifies melee or lightsaber, as a GM though Id allow their use under unarmed parry.

It's more that if Parry or Reflect can be used in more ways then the list of Specialisations that those talents thematically fit grows bigger. More instances of a talent make it easier to "optimise" which then upsets the balance.

Brawl in general is an odd skill for weapons, why should there even be Brawl weapons in the first place? If there are then what makes them so different to Melee? Is that difference enough to stop Parry?

in the case of gauntlets I think they work best with an unarmed Parry style, so perhaps the problem is there isn't enough examples of the Unarmed Parry talent. Warrior or Mystic could fix that.

i love the idea though of using reflect with low tech weapons, yadomejutsu with bullets

Scottish using shields to get close to English bowman? Sure! Crusaders? Romans? Samurai? Vikings? A hero from any of them would catch an arrow or bolt in their shield. Need to block stones from slings too. Honestly I think Reflect of low tech projectiles with a shield is an awesome idea.

I was thinking since the Genesys announcement that in my version of Genesys shields would grant the reflect and parry talent instead of any other defensive boni. I would exclude the non-energy versions from improved reflect, so no throwing back enemy attacks, but even that should work with most energy shields.

31 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I was thinking since the Genesys announcement that in my version of Genesys shields would grant the reflect and parry talent instead of any other defensive boni. I would exclude the non-energy versions from improved reflect, so no throwing back enemy attacks, but even that should work with most energy shields.

Wonder Woman uses the equivalent of Reflect (Improved) with her bracers to deflect bullets back at attackers. Is this not something that a Jedi wearing significantly heavy arm-/hand-wear (such as Cortosis Gauntlets) might be capable of doing in a cinematic game?

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Scottish using shields to get close to English bowman? Sure! Crusaders? Romans? Samurai? Vikings? A hero from any of them would catch an arrow or bolt in their shield. Need to block stones from slings too. Honestly I think Reflect of low tech projectiles with a shield is an awesome idea.

But are those really examples of "reflect"? I mean, that mostly just sounds like having a good armor that prevents the projectile from harming you. Reflect, as presented in SW, is more of the active "attack" on the projectile itself, with a weapon, with the possibility of turning it back on it's shooter. I'm not sure a shield would really capture the thematic concept of "reflect" like that.

Now I am totally fine with the idea of using Reflect with standard melee weapons, assuming they are capable of withstanding the force of the attack. We have a real world example of someone doing exactly that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJf8puSIXTg

From what I've read about this scene, Vigo really did knock that thrown dagger away with his sword. Lucky as heck example of it, and I'm sure he couldn't replicate it again without lots of takes, but he DID do it. So personally, using reflect with melee weapons seems perfectly legit to me. Parry with Brawl is also fine in my book, as again, there are plenty of examples of people with some kind of fist weapon, or enhanced bracers *cough* Wonder Woman *cough* blocking attacks with weapons, despite them technically being unarmed.

I personally don't get why unarmed parry can't but used if you have any weapon equipped, as from a realistic standpoint, they would actually help in a lot of cases, or at the very least not hinder. But hey, I didn't write the rules.

And actually, now that I think about it, baseball, in a way, is nothing more than extensive practice at reflecting a ranged attack with a melee weapon.

So yeah, in my book, I see no problem with using them with other types of weapons, but it would be a house rule to allow it. However I've never batted an eyelash at making house rules, directly in contradiction to written rules, when I don't like them, so that's not much of an issue for me.

@KungFuFerret You are now mixing improved reflect up with reflect. Reflect is basically an reactive ability to move a defensive tool between you and the projectile. Improved reflect is the talent which turns this into reflecting the projectile back at the shooter. And only if the shot is actually a blaster bolt, because good old railguns and other slugthrowers are immune to that. ;-)

Parry with brawl is basically just a block, just like parry unarmed, though you have the advantage that you can block the weapon and are not required to block the arm instead. BTW IIRC, unarmed parry can be used while wielding a weapon, just not when you have a two-handed weapon, you need to have something "unarmed" avaible to actually parry unarmed. I think this was clarified in the FAQ, but please don't quote me on that. I would rule it that way, so my memory might suffer from bias. Similar how you can still make an unarmed attack with your left, while having a blaster in your right hand.

I don't think it'd be too much of an issue to allow Parry to be used with Brawl-type weapons (gauntlets and vambraces make sense, knuckle-dusters a bit less so, but probably not worth really splitting hairs over) and Reflect to be used with Melee weapons.

That said, I wouldn't allow Improved Parry or Improved Reflect to be used with those weapon types; Improved Reflect is pretty much built upon the character using a lightsaber, and Improved Parry is built around turning a weapon block into an attack, something that's substantially easier with a proper weapon.

FFG likely went with the weapon restrictions they did out of concern of the talents becoming too broadly useful, and they've got a valid basis for concern. But for your own personal game, I don't see it as being anything to fret about, just be mindful that you'll have PCs using these talents a lot more often, especially Reflect since it's no longer keyed to a highly distinctive weapon, which is likely one of the balancing factors the designers had in mind when creating the talent.

I use a gauntlet, GM allowed me to use it for it.

So we just do that. I don't have anything else but basic reflect tho. We even used it for parry as well. It made sense for us.

On 05/07/2017 at 9:18 AM, HappyDaze said:

I'm still not sure what balance issue arises from allowing Cortosis Gauntlets to be used to Parry. I can understand not using Parry with bare hands (without the Martial Artist's talent), but the gauntlets are easily as durable and heavy as many Melee weapons.

( WONDER WOMAN theme intensifies.)