7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Honestly, the OP's incident is one of the outliers with a Force power that generally isn't nearly quite so problematic as the detractors make it out to be.

Though to be fair to the PC, you as the GM did start the fire by showcasing 'hey, I can use Move to take out an opponent in one go!'

That said, there do appear to be a number of other things you missed with regards to the power, but a lot of that can probably be attributed to the you as the GM being tired and probably just wanting to get the session over with. It happens even to the best of us, so no shame in that; even had it happen in a pick-up run by Jay Little at GenCon a few years back, and he's the guy that designed the game.

Now, as to the points missed:

1) Use Move to attack requires a Discipline check as well as a Force power check, with the difficulty of the Discipline check being equal to the silhouette of the object hurled. So to hurl a silhouette 3 object, you need to succeed on a Hard (3 purple) Discipline check. This alone helps keep the power from being too crazy in the early going, since PCs aren't likely to be succeeding that often against the higher difficulties until they've invested significant XP into raising their Discipline.

2) That Discipline check I mentioned? It's also considered a ranged combat check, so if the target has anything that affects the difficulty of ranged combat checks, such as the Adversary talent, that gets applied to the difficulty too. So if you hurl a silhouette 3 object at an Inquisitor (Adversary 3) wearing armored robes (defense 1), then the PC's Discipline check gets upgraded three times and has a setback added. So many of your major opponents already have a built-in defense

3) Also with Move is the fact that if you want the bigger and flashier effects, you've got to pay to play. It's often said that for a starting PC (Force Rating 1), Move is one of the worst possible powers to sink your XP into because at best you're only going to get the base power and an upgrade. And depending on what your starting specialization is, it may be a while before you even get to Force Rating 2 (anywhere from 75 to 100XP generally, provided you didn't start out in any of the Lightsaber Form specs, at which point for five of them you're looking at buying a second specialization while Niman has the highest XP cost to hit Force Rating 2 of any spec in the game thus far).

4) What have the other PCs spent their XP on? While Move is certainly flashy, it's not the only Force power that can be abused to quickly end an encounter. A PC that's invested in Influence can with a successful opposed Discipline check make an NPC believe any one untrue thing ("you don't need to see his identification...") or feel an emotion of the PC's choice. Be pretty easy for a PC that's rolling at least 3 yellows on a Discipline check to make an NPC feel an overwhelming sense of fear and that they should run away, or that there's no need for the NPC to fight because they're actually buddies and friends don't blast friends, right? A PC with Misdirect could create an illusion of anything ranging from Darth Vader literally breathing down their necks to the NPC's mother chiding him for doing bad things and should have worn a sweater it's so cold out. One Force point and a successful Deception vs. Perception check and the NPC is fooled by the illusion, and you just need one Force point and 40 XP for the power, and a Twi'lek Mystic/Advisor can easily start play with Cunning 3 and Deception 2, making this a potential starting PC option, plus how many NPCs really invest that much in Perception? Bind is another example of a way to short-circuit what ought to be a tough encounter, simply be using dark side pips to inflict strain (which some players may not care about, especially if they've already gone dark side) and having bought the control upgrade that forces the target to suffer wounds if they use their action to do anything. I had a Gand Seeker/Hunter in one campaign I was running that was freaking brutal with his heavy blaster rifle, consistently dealing out scads of damage, especially once he picked up the Intuitive Shot talent.

5) What's available to be hurled around by Move is dependent upon how the GM sets the scene. After all, the PCs can't throw around silhouette 3 or 4 objects if there's nothing in the immediate scene that big. Most of my combat encounters I make sure to generally stick to silhouette 2 objects that are readily in the scene, sometimes even just limiting what's easily grabbed to silhouette 1 objects (such as a combat encounter that took place in the Taris Undercity). Yes, there's a control upgrade that lets the PC rip objects out of secured moorings, so it's possible they could tear scenery apart to get those bigger objects, but at that point you're talking about Unnecessary Destruction (from Table 9-2: Common Conflict Penalties), which is 3 to 4 Conflict per incident at the minimum, and could be a lot more depending on the degree of collateral damage the PC causes with tossing such large objects around. Sure you had Starkiller doing it willy-nilly in The Force Unleashed, but remember that for much of the game, he was also a Sith-trained dark sider who probably had a Morality score in the low teens at absolute best. Also, don't be afraid to hand out Conflict for the character's use of excessive force; just because the player knows that a given adversary probably has a wound threshold in the 20's doesn't mean the character is aware of this, and so hurling something the size of an 18-wheeler at somebody is by most sane people's view overkill to the point of the Force user pretty much having intent to murder. We saw Kanan and Ezra drop a couple of walkers onto Vader in the season 2 opening episode, but that was a sheer desperation tactic as Vader had otherwise been toying with them and nearly killed Ezra with his own lightsaber, and they didn't open up with such brute force tactics. If your PC starts every fight with "I grab the biggest thing available and hurl it at the bad guys," then start handing out Conflict for Unnecessary Destruction, even going above the suggested 3 to 4 points for particularly egregious incidents.

It's worth noting that while there is the possibility of Force powers being opposed and thus requiring an opposed skill check (sidebar on page 283), hurling an object with Move doesn't quality because using the hurl objects control upgrade requires a combat check, which the sidebar excludes as being turned into an opposed check.

Another point to add about the statue. They tend to be bolted down and thus you also need the pull power upgrade as well.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Another point to add about the statue. They tend to be bolted down and thus you also need the pull power upgrade as well.

It's a bit of a pity that upgrade doesn't have a Pip cost. If it was a 1 point cost then the entire power moves into a FR4 territory fo the bigger things.

8 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

It's a bit of a pity that upgrade doesn't have a Pip cost. If it was a 1 point cost then the entire power moves into a FR4 territory fo the bigger things.

That is actually a brilliant idea.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That is actually a brilliant idea.

The other way to word it would be "Activating this Upgrade doubles the Force Pip cost of any Strength upgrades also activated."

in this way a disarming someone doesn't take any more Pips, but lifting bigger things up to Silhouette 4 such as ships under power or building pieces will cost an extra pip. Lifting the really big things from Silhouette 5-8 costs 2 extra.

so lifting a Silhouette 5 house beyond short range costs:

1(Base)+1(range)+2(strength)+2(secured)= 6 instead of the usual 4, a far more challenging prospect.

4 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

The other way to word it would be "Activating this Upgrade doubles the Force Pip cost of any Strength upgrades also activated."

in this way a disarming someone doesn't take any more Pips, but lifting bigger things up to Silhouette 4 such as ships under power or building pieces will cost an extra pip. Lifting the really big things from Silhouette 5-8 costs 2 extra.

so lifting a Silhouette 5 house beyond short range costs:

1(Base)+1(range)+2(strength)+2(secured)= 6 instead of the usual 4, a far more challenging prospect.

You should transfer this to the other thread. I would also word it that hurling active vehicles counts as them being mounted requiring this control upgrade. And the pilot can resist using piloting.

Or reduce the amount of STR uogrades on the tree, but I like the doubling idea esp as an wctual doubnling in size increasses an items mass by eight.

8 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

The OP's issue isn't with NPCS being one shoted. Their concern amongst the group is a PC being taken out at the beginning of the first round with no chance to defend themselves.

Yeah my point exactly

however, by reading this and talking with some players i can't fail to notice that Move is not the problem; the real problem is experienced PC (well experienced, i had to say) have around 15-20 WT with 3-5 soak and 0-1 defense.
And there is a lot of damage situation doing heavy massive damage i mean 20+ damage with a single hit, with not really big difficulties as the xp goes up (or as the nemesis level goes up... i should point also a 5 man minion squad roll 4 dice with 3-4 of them could easily be yellow...)

but seems a problem tied to core mechanics, not just Move or FaD ones...

As for Move Power use, as far as i know the Jedi PC is not a munchkin; he also did'nt whant to invest in Move and start spending points only recently to do some little trick as recall lightsaber from distance and to "justify" the newly acquired saber throw talent. So long he didn't have the upgrade to dislodge item bolted/tied to something and i never considered the cost/advantage of them. I agree is really cheap (force point wise) to eradicate something bolted to the ground, but honestly i don't see it as a big problem (for now, at least) 'cause at this point every power/talent tree is very powerful

In this case, as i pointed out i was tired and it was late, so don't focus on the statue being bolted to the ground and impossibile to throw. However the place was littered with debris so maybe was a couple of column pieces dislodged and crumbled on the ground, or big boulders eroded by the wind, or whatever

I don't recall anything about using Move to stop a moving vehicle. I honestly dislike the idea: unless the vehicle is stopped or the jedi is moving at the same speed and very close to it, the range distance is enormous and everything can just move out of range with no time, so i don't think i'll permit to stop a moving speeder and throw them on one side just move throw power. Also, the time the Jedi/Sith are starting throwing eachothers spaceship is the time this cease to be Star Wars and start being Dragonball...

However i like the idea of a more creative use (ie using fine manipulation to steer the wheel of an open top landspeeder). I guess i'll use the Jedi's Discipline as an opposed roll for pilot's Piloting skill, or viceversa, or something similar (ie giving black dice/upgrade difficulty for every strenght upgrade used)

Part of the problem with FFG's Star Wars is its really hard to gauge how strong an npc is until you fight it.

From the Psycho terminator brawn 5 Trandoshan with a vibrospear to storm trooper squads it take a pretty good eye to keep it threatening without it being underwhelming or omg that just massacred half the party before they could act.

GM's of this system need a different mindset than some of the more adversarial systems out there. You need to take more of a considered and collaborative approach. Telling the cinematic story of these PC's should be the goal.

Its simple to strafe them with a bunch of Tie fighters and boom their all dead, but that's not fun for the others at the table. Same goes for dropping a building on their heads. An actual TPK isn't necessarily what players want.

Now I'm not saying overwhelming odds are off the table, by all means have squads of reinforcements arriving every round, players should expect to retreat some times. If they don't though then don't make the assumption they all died, have them wake up in a dungeon with some way of escaping. Next time they will run.

Basicly I have found challenging the PC's to be important, but also giving them moments to really shine is important too. Set up scenarios where someone gets to really excel at their specialty, but throw a wrench in the works too.

Again I'll repeat, the GM in this system has all the power, they can smoosh those PC's at the drop of a hat. The PC's don't have to kill every creep in the dungeon, don't have to loot every corpse, that's not the point of this system. This is all about epic, cinematic space opera with amazing heroes making mistakes that lead to them doing awesome things.

When I first started GMing with the system I made the encounters easy and then started scaling up the npcs on the fly as I went along. That is how I got the feel for it. i wouldnt have the group go up against one nemesis. This isnt DnD where you get an entire party standing round a dragon hacking at it till it drops (okay occasionally it is but that is usually a high soak high wound creature that can last a few rounds of intense combat) .

Anyway if the GM is throwing in a Nemesis as the only challenge and he one shots a PC and another PC one shots the nemesis the they need to look at making combats that engage the group, not just a single player, because that is what a Nemesis fight like that is. If one PC shines in combat and the rest dont then they need to plan so that the other PCs are off slicing a door , recovering prisoners, retrieving data, finding the macguffin , whatever , while the combat character does her thing.

There's more than one way to skin a rancor other than dealing wounds to your PCs.

For instance, no matter how high their wound threshold, critical injuries can be a serious problem. There's a PC in a friend's AoR campaign that's got a 20+ wound threshold, but has no means to boost his defenses other than a high soak value (sitting at an 8 currently from Brawn 4, rank of Enduring, and Armor Master with laminate armor), so he pretty much lives in terror of weapons that have a low crit rating and just enough damage or ranks of Pierce to allow a single point of damage to reliably get through. Lightsabers are obvious, but things like disruptor rifles and vibro-weapons can also ruin his day as they can rather easily score a critical injury since the attack rolls would be one or two purple dice.

Also, as the GM it's up to you as to whether the NPC goes for the alpha strike or not. Personally, I view as bad GM'ing if you have your NPCs go immediately for the kill, especially if they're a dark side Force user. Consider that Palps in RotJ didn't immediately fry Luke for his insolence, he outright tortured the boy, and in RotS he didn't go for the alpha strike on Yoda either. Vader sure as heck didn't use the best tactics to defeat Luke during their fights, but then Vader's goal was to break Luke's spirit as opposed to the boy's body.

So at the end of the day, if you as the GM are worried about adversaries being able to "alpha strike" the PCs and end them in one go, the easiest "fix" is to simply be a better GM and not employ such tactics unless the adversary is in a truly dire strait, such as Palps deciding to literally hurl the Senate chamber at Yoda during their fight.

13 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

The OP's issue isn't with NPCS being one shoted. Their concern amongst the group is a PC being taken out at the beginning of the first round with no chance to defend themselves.

One of the things I find in this context irritating is that you can not use reflect against move. That is a little bit of odd imho, especially as we have seen in canon that just slicing up those incoming projectiles works just fine.

6 hours ago, kelpie said:

Yeah my point exactly

however, by reading this and talking with some players i can't fail to notice that Move is not the problem; the real problem is experienced PC (well experienced, i had to say) have around 15-20 WT with 3-5 soak and 0-1 defense.
And there is a lot of damage situation doing heavy massive damage i mean 20+ damage with a single hit, with not really big difficulties as the xp goes up (or as the nemesis level goes up... i should point also a 5 man minion squad roll 4 dice with 3-4 of them could easily be yellow...)

but seems a problem tied to core mechanics, not just Move or FaD ones...

As for Move Power use, as far as i know the Jedi PC is not a munchkin; he also did'nt whant to invest in Move and start spending points only recently to do some little trick as recall lightsaber from distance and to "justify" the newly acquired saber throw talent. So long he didn't have the upgrade to dislodge item bolted/tied to something and i never considered the cost/advantage of them. I agree is really cheap (force point wise) to eradicate something bolted to the ground, but honestly i don't see it as a big problem (for now, at least) 'cause at this point every power/talent tree is very powerful

In this case, as i pointed out i was tired and it was late, so don't focus on the statue being bolted to the ground and impossibile to throw. However the place was littered with debris so maybe was a couple of column pieces dislodged and crumbled on the ground, or big boulders eroded by the wind, or whatever

I don't recall anything about using Move to stop a moving vehicle. I honestly dislike the idea: unless the vehicle is stopped or the jedi is moving at the same speed and very close to it, the range distance is enormous and everything can just move out of range with no time, so i don't think i'll permit to stop a moving speeder and throw them on one side just move throw power. Also, the time the Jedi/Sith are starting throwing eachothers spaceship is the time this cease to be Star Wars and start being Dragonball...

However i like the idea of a more creative use (ie using fine manipulation to steer the wheel of an open top landspeeder). I guess i'll use the Jedi's Discipline as an opposed roll for pilot's Piloting skill, or viceversa, or something similar (ie giving black dice/upgrade difficulty for every strenght upgrade used)

Well it sounds like your main problem is that you have a high level party, but are still thinking in small/medium level concepts. For one, you are afraid of having a PC die flat out to massive damage from a large silhouette Move roll. Well, an easy way to solve that is don't let your NPC's do that.

500+ xp, in this game, are Heroes of Legend caliber people, or at least fast approaching that. The types of enemies they are facing should be super dangerous.

Also, think of the villains who use Move in the movies. We see Dooku Move a Sil 3 object, but not at Yoda directly, he tosses it at the innocent Jedi, who are unconscious nearby. So don't aim the massive Sil 4 Move attack at the players, have him direct it at the environment in some way, to make things worse for the PC's. Like....destroying the only catwalk across the Standard Issue Bottomless Pitt in the factory they are having their climactic battle in. Or have him toss the object into a group of nearby civilians so he can escape. Or have him use it like Palps did in Revenge, where he's just tossing them to be a jerk. I'm not really sure he even expected any of those Senate platforms to hit Yoda, he just did it for the lulz. I mean, he's cackling like a loon the entire time, and then goes back in with his lightsaber. You are in control of the NPC's, so if you fear crushing a PC with Move, simply don't let that happen. Have the NPC aim it elsewhere.

Or, you can just skip Move and go for something like Unleash, which can be terribly destructive, but not 30-40 damage in one go kind of destructive.

9 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

One of the things I find in this context irritating is that you can not use reflect against move. That is a little bit of odd imho, especially as we have seen in canon that just slicing up those incoming projectiles works just fine.

i think you can; it's a ranged attack so you can. However the (un)effectiveness of reflect sometime it worries me... at low levels you can reflect for 3 point and average-bad-guy hurl a 5-10 damage (sil 0-1) object so you say "ehy it's good for starter". Then you get 5 talents on reflect and you can reflect for 7 point while the bad-guy here is throwing 40 point walker on your head... dafuq?

I always point at Ezra who while still an apprentice reflect (and deflect!) several Tie Fighter cannons...

3 minutes ago, kelpie said:

i think you can; it's a ranged attack so you can. However the (un)effectiveness of reflect sometime it worries me... at low levels you can reflect for 3 point and average-bad-guy hurl a 5-10 damage (sil 0-1) object so you say "ehy it's good for starter". Then you get 5 talents on reflect and you can reflect for 7 point while the bad-guy here is throwing 40 point walker on your head... dafuq?

I always point at Ezra who while still an apprentice reflect (and deflect!) several Tie Fighter cannons...

Well if reflect works pre x10 it would work

@keplie @Daeglan The rules for reflect state only range(light), range(heavy) and gunnery attacks. Move is just a ranged attack, but works with neither of those skills. Imo that is an oversight, but that is how the talent has been written.

Interesting about how this is written is as well, that it actually could be read indeed that it works before the 10x calculation, which would be thematic and cool, potential within raw. But it does not look like intentional.
Feel free to re-read the talent on page 150 in FaD.

And the guy throwing that walker is rolling first against daunting difficulty + defense + environmental effects + any upgrades and setbacks from advantages spend against him. And if he hits, he still is doing just about 20 damage, based on soak and reflect (if reflect would apply, which it does not). As someone mentioned, throwing a walker is anything but a safe bet. Now firing an autofire weapon and getting 4 hits is a little easier, but in that case you can apply reflect and soak 4 times.

About Reflect (and for that matter Parry), they take effect after the final damage has been calculated but before it gets applied to the target's soak. So for most attacks a PC has to deal with, this means base damage value plus successes, since it's not very often that a PC is being directly targeted by vehicle-scale weaponry. But since vehicle-scale weapons need to multiply their damage by 10 to determine their final value, Reflect really isn't going to be that much help. Which is in keeping with FFG's general design approach that combat in this game is very dangerous, and the PCs should never truly feel invulnerable the way they can in games that allow for rapidly increasing health values, such as D&D and it's "gas tank" approach to hit points where as you're above zero hit points you're peachy, and high level PCs can have such massive hit point totals that the fastest way down a mountain is to simply jump off and then chug a few health potions once you crawl out of the impact crater.

I think those scenes of Kanan and Ezra 'deflecting' vehicle-scale weapons fire is closer to a narrative description of them being shot at but the attack missing (difficulty based on size difference in vehicle scale is at least 3 purple, possibly 4 for the really big vehicles, and then setback dice from them having ranged defense or just talents that upgrade the difficulty of ranged attacks against them), or in the case of them protecting the Ghost from TIE Fighter attacks, GM Filoni (whose even bigger on Rule of Cool than GM Lucas) simply added a couple of extra setback dice on the TIE pilot's combat check.

One of the things I do to restrain Move a bit is to make the Difficulty be built like a skill check. The two factors are the range of the attack (measured between the object to be moved and the target), and the Silhouette of the object. The larger of the two gives the number of Difficulty Dice, the smaller of the two gives the number of upgrades. Then, normal defenses apply.

This means that throwing Sil 0 objects is exactly the same difficulty as firing a gun at the same range, which makes sense. Sil 1 objects provide a single upgrade, and Sil 2+ objects have multiple upgrades, with a minimum difficulty equal to their Sil. So throwing that Sil 3 statue at someone at medium range from it is now a Hard (CCD) Discipline check, before you take armor, cover, talents, and other powers into account.

Also, Sil of the object your throwing determines the Difficulty increase should you be Engaged with an opponent while trying this. If it's equal to your max, it's the equivalent of a Gunnery attack (i.e., you can't attempt it). If it's one below your max, it's +DD, like a Ranged: Heavy attack, and if the object is 2+ below your max, it's only +D if you're engaged.

On 7/5/2017 at 9:07 AM, KungFuFerret said:

Well it sounds like your main problem is that you have a high level party, but are still thinking in small/medium level concepts. For one, you are afraid of having a PC die flat out to massive damage from a large silhouette Move roll. Well, an easy way to solve that is don't let your NPC's do that.

500+ xp, in this game, are Heroes of Legend caliber people, or at least fast approaching that. The types of enemies they are facing should be super dangerous.

Also, think of the villains who use Move in the movies. We see Dooku Move a Sil 3 object, but not at Yoda directly, he tosses it at the innocent Jedi, who are unconscious nearby. So don't aim the massive Sil 4 Move attack at the players, have him direct it at the environment in some way, to make things worse for the PC's. Like....destroying the only catwalk across the Standard Issue Bottomless Pitt in the factory they are having their climactic battle in. Or have him toss the object into a group of nearby civilians so he can escape. Or have him use it like Palps did in Revenge, where he's just tossing them to be a jerk. I'm not really sure he even expected any of those Senate platforms to hit Yoda, he just did it for the lulz. I mean, he's cackling like a loon the entire time, and then goes back in with his lightsaber. You are in control of the NPC's, so if you fear crushing a PC with Move, simply don't let that happen. Have the NPC aim it elsewhere.

Or, you can just skip Move and go for something like Unleash, which can be terribly destructive, but not 30-40 damage in one go kind of destructive.

Watch some snydely whiplash. Be mustache twirly evil.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Watch some snydely whiplash. Be mustache twirly evil.

I'm always in favor of this, especially in Star Wars with an archvillain like Palpatine.

On 7/7/2017 at 0:46 AM, Absol197 said:

One of the things I do to restrain Move a bit is to make the Difficulty be built like a skill check. The two factors are the range of the attack (measured between the object to be moved and the target), and the Silhouette of the object. The larger of the two gives the number of Difficulty Dice, the smaller of the two gives the number of upgrades. Then, normal defenses apply.

This means that throwing Sil 0 objects is exactly the same difficulty as firing a gun at the same range, which makes sense. Sil 1 objects provide a single upgrade, and Sil 2+ objects have multiple upgrades, with a minimum difficulty equal to their Sil. So throwing that Sil 3 statue at someone at medium range from it is now a Hard (CCD) Discipline check, before you take armor, cover, talents, and other powers into account.

Also, Sil of the object your throwing determines the Difficulty increase should you be Engaged with an opponent while trying this. If it's equal to your max, it's the equivalent of a Gunnery attack (i.e., you can't attempt it). If it's one below your max, it's +DD, like a Ranged: Heavy attack, and if the object is 2+ below your max, it's only +D if you're engaged.

Veeeeeery cool idea. I like it...

On 5/7/2017 at 11:59 PM, SEApocalypse said:

@keplie @Daeglan The rules for reflect state only range(light), range(heavy) and gunnery attacks. Move is just a ranged attack, but works with neither of those skills. Imo that is an oversight, but that is how the talent has been written.

Interesting about how this is written is as well, that it actually could be read indeed that it works before the 10x calculation, which would be thematic and cool, potential within raw. But it does not look like intentional.
Feel free to re-read the talent on page 150 in FaD.

ok... i need to check...

at page 150 of FaD it says "after damage is calculated but before soak is applied" so it means that against a vehicle scale weapons reflect is applied after the x10 calculation.
However it says also "immediately after step 3 of Perform a Combat Check, pag 210", pointing out to characthers' combat section. I gone to vehicle combat section (pag 242) and the x10 rule is inside step 3, so definitely reflect will apply after.

Applying reflect before the x10 could be a good house rule, i see. Only problem i see is vehicle weapons does lesser damage (before x10 rule) so a Jedi could easily reflect a tie cannon than a stormtrooper rifle...
Anyway, we're not talking about reflect, but move, so that's not the place to talk about it (maybe i'll open a new post elsewhere for it...

Not to derail things, but Reflect applies specifically only to energy weapons like blasters. So it won't be much good against blocks of debris.

4 hours ago, Krieger22 said:

Not to derail things, but Reflect applies specifically only to energy weapons like blasters. So it won't be much good against blocks of debris.

Technically, it would be Improved Reflect which only works with Blasters, since that's what you use to redirect a shot. The base Reflect talent can easily stop a bullet (vaporizing it).

Unless they are using Cortosis bullets then the glowy stick of doom shuts itself down...

Reflect works on any ranged light, ranged heavy or Gunnery attack be they energy or pieces of metal it should stop objects with move although if its a big enough object its not going to do enough to stop the damage.

My mate agreed to leave the rules as written
they said "it was just one single occurrence, so is not a problem. If this will happen on a regular basis, we will find a solution"

so long, we will see if things will end up in a different ways next time, or if alpha shot will happen again...