Not really Quad Turret related but.. (no QBT in this game)

Just had a 600p game today (with Sloan as commander) and I had 2xGladiators, 1xISD I, 1xGozanti, 2xRaiders and I did not speed up above speed two once on anything but my Raiders. I did have one ship advantage and was going first but with sensor network my opponent where generally 75p ahead so I needed to engage him to win. The opposing Rebel force was Ackbar with 1xMC80, 1xMC30, 1xAssault Frigatte, 1 x Nebulon B, 1xGR75 and about 170p squadrons. We had about the same amount of points in squadron but I invested a bit more in offensive squadron support rather than defensive and that turned out key for me.

I basically killed off 2/3 of his squadrons before he pulled them back and his MC30 that was out of position due to me having a considerable deployment advantage with more squadrons that him. The MC30 was essentially destroyed by Phantoms and Fire-Sprays and some stray shots from my ISD and a Gladiator. But this was not a tournament game so it basically ended in turn four with the Rebels disengaging since they would never be able to make up for its bad positioning had we continued. I just could strafe his rear with bombers, raiders and the ISD at long/mid range and eat him up piece by piece. But as thing were his MC80 could probably take that beating with all the defensive stuff on it and support ship using Projection Experts. But since I was about 100p up on him he needed to take the offensive and that was just never going to happen.

The moral of the story is that... in casual play you don't need to wipe the opponent, just win and if I'm up 100p I will not speed in and start trading ships... I will just put myself in a superior position and wait since if nothing change I win... no need to press my luck anymore. In a tournament I guess this is not enough but the game is not solely about tournament play. If I had only speed two ships (other than the raiders) this battle would have turned out just the same.

I hear the Quasar is Medium for Konstantine and Speed 3 and thus capable of keeping up with the Fight...

Just now, Ginkapo said:

Why?

While I'm tempted to just say, "why not" as I feel that's actually almost an appropriate answer, it's because I feel the Empire needs a ship that balances firepower, size and speed to properly support an ISD.

The Rebels have the AFM, which has the ability to punch pretty hard with upgrades like akbar, bringing with it it's great synergy and cost as a carrier, it's a great ship to support larger ships. The Empire is lacking in that front, strictly because the VSD cannot keep up...

I'm sure I could go into more detail (maybe tomorrow) but I'm leaving my PC for a while

31 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

While I'm tempted to just say, "why not" as I feel that's actually almost an appropriate answer, it's because I feel the Empire needs a ship that balances firepower, size and speed to properly support an ISD.

The Rebels have the AFM, which has the ability to punch pretty hard with upgrades like akbar, bringing with it it's great synergy and cost as a carrier, it's a great ship to support larger ships. The Empire is lacking in that front, strictly because the VSD cannot keep up...

I'm sure I could go into more detail (maybe tomorrow) but I'm leaving my PC for a while

I asked because you mentioned 'perfect' before. You want the perfect ship to have its only weakness removed. Which suggests you dont see the value that forced compromise brings to this game.

And now you describe a ship with a 8 dice salvo, 8 hull, speed 3, squad 3 and engineering 4 to be the perfect support ship for an ISD. No that IS a cheaper ISD. A cheaper ISD does not support an ISD, it replaces the ISD.

However, what it seems to boil down to is envy of a hull 6, 4 dice broadside rebel ship. A ship that isnt very good at much and certainly is not good at supporting MC80s.

What you imagine as a large ship support does not exist for either faction and never will.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I asked because you mentioned 'perfect' before.

I presume you mean this, as it's the only time I use the word "perfect" in this thread?

16 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

But they never fixed the other issue, which is, it's the slowest ship in the game, and is forced into the role of "artillery" despite having perfect stats for mid-close range combat.

Which at this point I'm going to go ahead and start correcting you, as you've either blatantly ignored all my earlier posts, or just don't care that you're putting words in my mouth.... as quoted, I said it has the perfect stats for mid-close range combat... Can you even argue that point?

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

You want the perfect ship to have its only weakness removed. Which suggests you dont see the value that forced compromise brings to this game.

[Citation Needed]

I said I want it to be able to reach speed 3. Through upgrade, not errata. To me that says, clearly, I'm willing to pay the point cost and sacrifice one of it's other slots to achieve balance, and maintain "forced compromise", as suggested by my hypothetical upgrade, which not only fills the turbolaser slot but costs 8 points. Although I'd be willing to contest that the upgrade I "designed" is by no means "perfect" as I stated earlier is only the "core concept" to a wider idea.... not to be nit-picked.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

And now you describe a ship with a 8 dice salvo, 8 hull, speed 3, squad 3 and engineering 4 to be the perfect support ship for an ISD.

[Citation Needed]

Again, I never said it was the "perfect" support ship for the ISD, I said the Empire needed a roll that, "balances firepower, size and speed to properly support an ISD". As a matter of fact, earlier in this thread I posted, in quite good humor, what my idea of a "perfect" ISD support would look like. Even I recognize that the VSD elevated to speed 3 without cost or sacrifice would replace the ISD, as stated above.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

A ship that isnt very good at much and certainly is not good at supporting MC80s.

[Citation Needed]

This is your opinion, and that's fine, but I disagree completely. The assault frigate has served me well both as a secondary gunboat/squadron pusher to the MC80 using Gunnery teams along with akbar and XI7s to present a threat to the flanks of the MC80. It's also been exceptional at filling that same roll along side MC80Ls, as having a secondary gunboat that's very easy to double arc with and can push squadrons before attacking is the perfect filler for a ship that does not like to be flanked.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

What you imagine as a large ship support does not exist for either faction and never will.

[Citation Needed]

Again, opinion piece, you're welcome to it, but I disagree. For reasons I've stated above. As for the future of the ISD support I described, you may be right, but you have no way of knowing for certain.

31 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Again, I never said it was the "perfect" support ship for the ISD, I said the Empire needed a roll that, "balances firepower, size and speed to properly support an ISD".

What's stopping the other current ships in the Empire from filling this role? Arquitens exist and are great long range harassers, Raiders are great taking care of squadrons, gladiators provide a solid punch as well, and the VSD provides another ship with significant health. If you want fast, pick a small ship. If you want health, take a VSD and use the ISD to herd them towards it, hammer and anvil style.

It sounds (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) like you want a speed 3 medium ship that can put out significant firepower without having to sacrifice anything for it. If you want a ship like that, it's going to need a significant trade off in order for it to legit exist. Like, potentially zero squadrons and only 2 engineering or something like that. Because if you create something akin to an ISD (speed 3, decent engineering points, some squadrons), it will just replace an ISD.

Let's say we do allow your VSD upgrade to take shape. Why would I ever build a VSD without that upgrade ever? There's no reason, and now you have your new Demolisher/rhymer/Rieekan.

54 minutes ago, geek19 said:

What's stopping the other current ships in the Empire from filling this role? Arquitens exist and are great long range harassers, Raiders are great taking care of squadrons, gladiators provide a solid punch as well, and the VSD provides another ship with significant health. If you want fast, pick a small ship. If you want health, take a VSD and use the ISD to herd them towards it, hammer and anvil style.

It sounds (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) like you want a speed 3 medium ship that can put out significant firepower without having to sacrifice anything for it. If you want a ship like that, it's going to need a significant trade off in order for it to legit exist. Like, potentially zero squadrons and only 2 engineering or something like that. Because if you create something akin to an ISD (speed 3, decent engineering points, some squadrons), it will just replace an ISD.

Let's say we do allow your VSD upgrade to take shape. Why would I ever build a VSD without that upgrade ever? There's no reason, and now you have your new Demolisher/rhymer/Rieekan.

Well, I discussed this pretty heavily in the my original draft that I erased (I knew I should've saved it somewhere lol).

What it boils down to is the ability to pull shots off the ISD.

One of the things we talk about often (on the forums) is having a sacrifice or weakness inherent in each ship which includes cost.

I play ISDs quite often, and despite my proclaimed love for the janky pulsetap, I do run them in many variations that aren't janky (along side VSDs, Demos, Arquittens, Interdictors, gozantis/bomber wings and so on...). So I see the ISD in action quite often. One observation I've made is a term I like to call "threat dispersal", I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed certain ships draw aggro simply by being present. (normally larger harder hitting ships).

As we all know, one of the ISD's strengths and weaknesses is that it throws a lot of damage from one source, it also makes it the prime target the moment it hits the mat.

In the games I've played (finally addressing your first question):

-The Arquittens, while great for throwing long range damage, and avoiding trouble themselves, even capturing objectives when necessary, simply lack the threat to pull aggro off an ISD.

-Raiders, as you said, great for snagging squads and eating them up, is also very fragile, and very rarely can survive pulling aggro off the ISD.

-The Glad(Demo) is probably the best contender for the roll I'm describing (without altering the game as is), it hits hard, it's fast, and can pull aggro, but it is also fairly dependent on first/last activation (well, to get the BEST effect anyways) and depends almost entirely on close range to be a threat. Mixed with black dice ability to be very fickle (even with rerolls on my part) it often just ends up a speed bump if it can pull aggro at all.

-The Interdictor, is the second best contender for this roll, it can take a hit like no other, add tua, ECMs, and keep comms netting engineering tokens on it, and it'll take some damage. But, with this ability, it has a total lack of threat. Even the combat version, when paired with an ISD has a hard time pulling shots from an ISD. (typically, it only takes hits when it's all they can shoot.)

-The Victory, this ship has the stats to run as support to an ISD and in defensive situations where the ISD is running at slow speeds, it can pull all kinds of aggro. In this sense, the VSD would likely need the least amount of change to fill that roll (add 1 speed). But as previous conversations in this thread have gone, many feel it would be too OP, that it may even replace the ISD, which, I don't feel is particularly true, but I could see it as a relatively powerful stand in for 1 ISD in dual ISD builds to pick up squads or small ship activations or to lower bids. Personally, I think that the lack of ability to speed up forces a ship that could "do anything" into a few very narrow roles. I do firmly believe an upgrade could be designed that would have a large enough sacrifice and cost to allow the VSD to enter different roles without replacing the ISD.


So altogether, none of these ships really supports the ISD in the way it needs it most, which is threat dispersal. A ship that seems just as scary as the ISD but with weaker stats.

With all that said, my idea of the "perfect" support role, isn't far from what you suggested at all (see below).

And in regards to 'why ever take the VSD without the upgrade?'

It all depends on play style, fleet design, and cost effectiveness. Maybe your fleet doesn't want to risk bringing in another heap of points to close-medium, perhaps you gain more use as an artillery piece and area denial (and from the current usage of the VSD I could still see this happening even with the upgrade I designed) or perhaps you just want to use it's carrier abilities... bringing your carrier in close after sacrificing guns and heaping extra points into it doesn't really make sense (to me anyways, especially since their are cheaper more efficient ways to do it).

Do I think it would alter the role? Yes. Do I think it would become an auto include? No. Not if properly designed. (keep in mind my upgrade isn't meant to be the "end all" just a core concept)



(One of the core components to the ships I designed is that they have a very narrow front arc, think more narrow than a nebulon b

Dude.

Quasar.

Significant threat and dodgy hull.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

Dude.

Quasar.

Significant threat and dodgy hull.

Oh believe me, I'll be testing it. It could fill the roll. But I won't know till I have it in hand lol

8 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Oh believe me, I'll be testing it. It could fill the roll. But I won't know till I have it in hand lol

http://kdyards.com/ships.view.php?id=2418

Meh

Is nobody going to mention that we now have an official FFG picture of Quad Battery Turrets?

Awww yiss

7 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Is nobody going to mention that we now have an official FFG picture of Quad Battery Turrets?

Awww yiss

i think we'd rather debate the merits of other ships first.

23 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Is nobody going to mention that we now have an official FFG picture of Quad Battery Turrets?

Awww yiss

that means Armada Warlords can finally update their site.

GET ON THIS

xD

14 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

that means Armada Warlords can finally update their site.

GET ON THIS

xD

Way ahead of you, fam.

Just now, Snipafist said:

Way ahead of you, fam.

wth, I checked an hour ago and it wasn't there!

Well played, sir.

1 minute ago, Sybreed said:

wth, I checked an hour ago and it wasn't there!

Well played, sir.

Haha, well the rest is in @Nevetz's hands, but having the raw materials available certainly helps. I was actually planning on scanning the card in myself tomorrow morning but FFG beat me to it, thankfully!

7 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Is nobody going to mention that we now have an official FFG picture of Quad Battery Turrets?

Awww yiss

That's a Trade Federation Lucrehulk-class, likely a Droid Command ship.

#CloneWarsContentConfirmed #RepublicvsSeps #TeamVenator

On 7/5/2017 at 8:43 AM, Darth Sanguis said:

I guess I'm just salty as hell <snip>

Pretty apparent at this point

1) community sees card

2) community makea vast hopeful assumptions regarding it

3) the salt must flow.

I found the whole speculation thread terribly amusing if it is any consequence.

16 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Pretty apparent at this point

1) community sees card

2) community makea vast hopeful assumptions regarding it

3) the salt must flow.

I found the whole speculation thread terribly amusing if it is any consequence.

Meeeeh

I mean you're not wrong.

1.) I see card

2.) I make a prediction based on only observed usage throughout the entirety of the known canon...

3.) Get predictably salty, as a "blue at any range" card had already been included in this release...

53 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Meeeeh

I mean you're not wrong.

1.) I see card

2.) I make a prediction based on only observed usage throughout the entirety of the known canon...

3.) Get predictably salty, as a "blue at any range" card had already been included in this release...

My thing is, while I was in fact also looking for AS tech on that card, its important to note;

1. That medium/large ship anti msu love was also something people have been clamoring for, and this is that.

2. Both Imps and Rebels recieved ship based antisquad improvements you can buy into, imo, in the form of;

a. the quasar 2's rangey red

b. hammerheads being cheap viable options for rebels to play either ruthless strats or flechettes.

c. Disp caps making raider 2 a more viable option.

Plus they nerfed Rhymer, Rieekan and stacked BCC's. So you know, lets play in the new sandbox some.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

My thing is, while I was in fact also looking for AS tech on that card, its important to note;

1. That medium/large ship anti msu love was also something people have been clamoring for, and this is that.

2. Both Imps and Rebels recieved ship based antisquad improvements you can buy into, imo, in the form of;

a. the quasar 2's rangey red

b. hammerheads being cheap viable options for rebels to play either ruthless strats or flechettes.

c. Disp caps making raider 2 a more viable option.

Plus they nerfed Rhymer, Rieekan and stacked BCC's. So you know, lets play in the new sandbox some.

All excellent points, and you're not wrong.

I'll be adding this card to Warlords today. Sorry I have just seen the notifications (and the card) now.

edit: it's up and running

Thanks, Nevetz!

I don't know if this has been mentionned, but the reason why QLT is a Turbolaser upgrade is probably so Victories can't turn into pocket ISDs with Spinal Armament.

oh wait, they can't use SA with QLTs. What the hell then?