3 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

"It" being defined as Ebb/Flow, not the rules in general.

ah sorry, however you can commit dice before using the ability, you could also save up for a super strike, you use ebb on your turn and use brawl and choose to add to your success (lets say 4 pips rolled) take a pot shot at a mook, then turn to the nemesis next turn and not use ebb but use enhance instead (rolling 4 more pips) to add 8 damage to the strike, you can also commit and use the dice committed to generate pips rolled and also use your uncomitted dice for enhance:brawl/piloting etc

3 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

I thought he said that there was an error in there somewhere, and I think the part that says "enemies only" is incorrect, and it applies only to all characters. He also said a FAQ fix, so, FAQ please?

He started off by saying that the range upgrade changes the control upgrades so that they target all opponents to targetting everyone, this was based on the wording, he then back tracked saying that as written the range upgrade should have been "all opponents" . My major point is that if this is correct the magnitude is only useful for the basic strain power, as the range upgraded power is all opponents and every ebb control upgrade is also all opponents(Except the yes no question which isnt relevant). Riffing off of that it would make more sense that the basic power is also meant to be all opponents, this is guess work on my part, because it is odd to have every other iteration of the power "opponents" and only one "everyone".

If you change the basic power to match then magnitude does nothing unless you want to protect key opponents, so it does make more sense that Sam may have got it wrong, based on what he read on the range upgrade. Going the other way and assuming that Sam was wrong in the moment and that the whole ebb power should read everyone (this is purely based on the presence of the magnitude upgrades and assuming that these affect Ebb more than just the basic power). Now the other reason that this makes sense is that it does tame the ability somewhat preventing what I see as quite powerful effects.

Take someone with FR3 rolling a maximum unmodified 6 pips they have some of these following options for Ebb

6 strain to everyone in engaged range (possibly triggering mastery to affect one affected character with a despair on next skill check, note this is not time barred so if they left the effect range it still works). This would toast an entire minion group of stormtroopers in one go even if you fail your skill check. Everyone in engaged would be 6 strain in much the same way as a grenade so lets say 2 groups of 4 troopers engaged with you they would all drop (24 dmg to each group). If you have to use magnitude you drop that 1 strain per time you trigger magnitude (admittedly it is hard to get 6 pips but not that uncommon if you have a DP to flip). Short range is still 4 dmg to each opponent bypassing soak.

6 failure or threat to every opponent in engaged range , no need to use magnitude at all, is enough to make pretty much them all miss or , if you happen to have improved reflect/parry, you can return all their damage back at them excepting maybe 1 or 2 better characters, Overbalance and they are pretty much all staggered and if you have Overbalance you will probably have Grapple (causing them to be stuck there unless they can pay strain for the 2nd maneuver), you can trigger anything that you can use threat for.

Even triggering the range upgrade, which swtiches the strain to all opponents is going to cause AOE strain damage of 4 to every opponent (not everyone). Scathing Tirade at its best cannot do this assuming the best roll you can get with 6 positive dice you can do 4 dmg to 3 people if you roll 3 success and 9 advantage exactly.

This is just with FR 3 which is possible with one specialization (or an ascetic with empty soul who has psuedo FR 3 with the roll giving you 2-4 pips +2, so minimum 4 and a relatively good chance of 5 and 6 results). At least with having to trigger magnitude you will reduce the frequency of these effects.

The massive drawback of this power that I like is you need to be at least at Short range, Engaged is better. So it's useless against Ranged opponents who can ignore all those Failures and Threat since their outside the aura.

I do hope the wording mistake is with the Range/Threat/Failure upgrades, I would much prefer all characters where affected and therefore the Magnitude upgrades have a meaningful purpose.

Otherwise I feel the two magnitude upgrades should be completely removed and replaced with something else entirely, no idea what though.

They answered my question about Imbue (it doesn't work on droids), so do y'all think the same would be true about Ebb/Flow? E.g., the Jedi wouldn't benefit from this power when fighting Battle Droids or Droidekas in close quarters?

2 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

They answered my question about Imbue (it doesn't work on droids), so do y'all think the same would be true about Ebb/Flow? E.g., the Jedi wouldn't benefit from this power when fighting Battle Droids or Droidekas in close quarters?

Depends. Flow should work, but Ebb may or may not. It depends on the interpretation; if the power effects the droids in a physical capacity or purely mentally/spiritually capacity.

I think Ebb/Flow is less about directly affecting the enemy and more about allowing your own body to move with the will of the Force. As they said it's the "I'm one with the Force the Force is with me" power... even though it doesn't work on Ranged attacks st you.

I see the Strain dealing aspect as you flowing so much with the Force that your enemies have to work harder to keep up with you.

As far as I'm aware the Force can be used to predict what Droids are going to do. Sense is basically a less refined but more broad version of this power and the defence upgrades from that affect Droids.

6 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think Ebb/Flow is less about directly affecting the enemy and more about allowing your own body to move with the will of the Force. As they said it's the "I'm one with the Force the Force is with me" power... even though it doesn't work on Ranged attacks st you.

I see the Strain dealing aspect as you flowing so much with the Force that your enemies have to work harder to keep up with you.

As far as I'm aware the Force can be used to predict what Droids are going to do. Sense is basically a less refined but more broad version of this power and the defence upgrades from that affect Droids.

I can see that. If it's a mild form of precognition, it should work on droid opponents. That would mean it's not a direct Strain attack, per se, not like the Influence power is, in other words (and Influence does not work on droids).

47 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

I can see that. If it's a mild form of precognition, it should work on droid opponents. That would mean it's not a direct Strain attack, per se, not like the Influence power is, in other words (and Influence does not work on droids).

Actually there is a precedent that this wouldnt apply prescient shot , which adds a boost to hitting living targets.

I really wasn't happy with Sams answer as to why aggressive negotiations isn't coercion- looking at F&D main book page 116 it clearly says if you make a threat regardless of any physical move - its coercion

the fact it's cool and suits the speciality whilst great doesn't make sense

It's a once per session ability

so I threaten to drop people if they don't back off and use the ability - it's negotiating

if if I then 5 minutes later do the same thing but can't use the ability again it's coercion

ermmmmmm

Well, negotiation is used for price (and availability) of goods and services, so getting them to back off isn't covered by it in the first place.

I think this is more about intimidating shopkeepers or putting pressure on to get access to that rare item.

(Haven't yet listened)

15 minutes ago, Random Bystander said:

I really wasn't happy with Sams answer as to why aggressive negotiations isn't coercion- looking at F&D main book page 116 it clearly says if you make a threat regardless of any physical move - its coercion

the fact it's cool and suits the speciality whilst great doesn't make sense

It's a once per session ability

so I threaten to drop people if they don't back off and use the ability - it's negotiating

if if I then 5 minutes later do the same thing but can't use the ability again it's coercion

ermmmmmm

Under normal circumstances, Coercion is the skill to use to force or threaten.

In this case, Aggressive Negotiations creates an exception to the established rules. You can trigger similar effects to Coercion with a Lightsaber check, once per session.

And they give some compelling examples, as it's not always about directly threatening your foes to do what you want, just reminding them of dangers. At least saying to the other individuals, "I am willing to go this far if I have to, but I would really rather not. Let's talk about this like civilized people."

20 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Well, negotiation is used for price (and availability) of goods and services, so getting them to back off isn't covered by it in the first place.

I think this is more about intimidating shopkeepers or putting pressure on to get access to that rare item.

(Haven't yet listened)

Negotiation skill isn't always about bargaining for goods and services. It also covers subtle diplomacy, like trying to get Side A and Side B to agree to ceasefire terms.

On 7/26/2017 at 5:27 AM, SavageBob said:

Negotiation skill isn't always about bargaining for goods and services. It also covers subtle diplomacy, like trying to get Side A and Side B to agree to ceasefire terms.

Exactly. It's the "finessing" skill; it covers pretty much any attempt to get to a compromise or a concession. "Hey, this is in both of our best interests." It's the skill that a police negotiator would most frequently use on the job.

It's the skill that makes people want to answer yes to the question of, "Don't you agree?"

Don't you agree?

Negotiation: 3eP+3eC 2 successes, 1 advantage

On 7/25/2017 at 10:17 AM, DaverWattra said:

I agree with your reasoning here. I think it would be best to house-rule the power so that the control upgrades of Ebb affect every character within range.

I like this a lot! Nerfs the Ebb just a little, makes it kind of like the Force-power equivalent of the IFD, but for organics

Consider it "yoinked."

Another tweak I've been thinking about to the Disciples of Harmony RAW...

I like a lot of things about the Arbiter spec. It has some cool abilities, and like Protector (one of my favorite talent trees) it gives you the ability to rush Force Rating and Dedication pretty quickly (125 XP) while picking up some solid bread-and-butter ranked talents along the way (Grit, Toughened, Parry).

But there are a couple things about the spec that just don't jive with my conception of the Arbiter. For one thing, why two ranks of Reflect and one rank of Parry? The vibe I get from Arbiters is that they're melee combatants first and foremost, so I'd like to see two Parry and one Reflect.

Second, the high-XP diplomatic talents are just bizarre (with the exception of Aggressive Negotiations, which is flavorful although it feels weirdly dark side). Improved Savvy Negotiator: convince a bystander to see one of the opponent's points as maliciously unreasonable? This is so vague that I wouldn't know how to rule on this talent if I were GM. IMO, talents should have clear mechanical consequences, not just vague narrative ones--narrative consequences are for skill checks. Same goes for Crucial Point.

So here are the changes I'm making to the tree:

--Replace the 10-point rank of Reflect with Parry

--Replace Improved Savvy Negotiator with Discredit (from the Advocate tree)

--Replace Crucial Point with a rank of Supporting Evidence

I do like the spec overall, though, even as written. Combined with Protector, it lets you build a "basic" Jedi knight with FR 3, 2-3 ranks in both Parry and Reflect, and enough Force power upgrades to do what a typical Jedi is capable of in the prequels, for the low price of around 400 earned XP. (Or if you're a purist about wanting every Jedi to have Improved Parry, you can combine Sentry with one of these two specs to make a solid basic Jedi for around 500 XP.)

2 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

But there are a couple things about the spec that just don't jive with my conception of the Arbiter. For one thing, why two ranks of Reflect and one rank of Parry? The vibe I get from Arbiters is that they're melee combatants first and foremost, so I'd like to see two Parry and one Reflect.

...

So here are the changes I'm making to the tree:

--Replace the 10-point rank of Reflect with Parry

I would think that Arbiters would have more use for Reflect. They aren't dark Jedi hunters, after all; they are arbiters. They deal more with normal citizens, rather than other lightsaber users. They settle conflicts, like the Jedi of old did, and if things get hairy between the arguing parties—and blasters are drawn—the Arbiter is ready to step in with his lightsaber.

I see an Arbiter who ends the fight as soon as they engage by destroying the opponents weapon. Reflect is how they get to Engage. They seek to end combat quickly and without bloodshed.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I suppose I was also thinking it would be nice to have a "lightsaber lite" specialization that is more focused on Parry than Reflect--and Sentry is already focused on Reflect.

12 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I see an Arbiter who ends the fight as soon as they engage by destroying the opponents weapon. Reflect is how they get to Engage. They seek to end combat quickly and without bloodshed.

True that. Combined with Niman, an Arbiter is a disarming master. Sun Djem for the lightsabers, and Improve Sunder for everything else

5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Yeah, maybe you're right. I suppose I was also thinking it would be nice to have a "lightsaber lite" specialization that is more focused on Parry than Reflect--and Sentry is already focused on Reflect.

That could be a Mystic or warrior spec

6 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

True that. Combined with Niman, an Arbiter is a disarming master. Sun Djem for the lightsabers, and Improve Sunder for everything else

Everything else except the Brawlers (or someone packing a cortosis weapon)

26 minutes ago, syrath said:

Everything else except the Brawlers (or someone packing a cortosis weapon)

Or a Makashi Duelist! But still, those examples are not really part of the Arbiter's bailiwick.

7 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Yeah, maybe you're right. I suppose I was also thinking it would be nice to have a "lightsaber lite" specialization that is more focused on Parry than Reflect--and Sentry is already focused on Reflect.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

That could be a Mystic or warrior spec

I dunno about that. The Shii-Cho Knight and Makashi Duelist are focused on melee combat to an annoying level Not sure how much farther they could take it with either of their careers.

Form 7 must come some time, it's bound to have a single Parry just for Improved Parry