Taking Ankaur Maro allows you to take one non-unique unit from any other faction. Can this unit be equipped with upgrades? If so, does it have Waiqar upgrades or <faction> upgrades available?

The rules say, "Upgrade cards are equipped to units in an army. However, some upgrade cards have a unit type or faction icon, denoting that these cards can only be equipped to a unit of the matching type in an army of the matching faction." (Page 3, under Upgrades)

A strict reading of this rule suggests that since you are running a Waiqar army, the cross-faction unit can equip neutral and Waiqar-only upgrades.

Some people are hoping for clarification from FFG on this point because the rule doesn't mention cross-faction units at all. Also, some people would prefer to only allow neutral upgrades on cross-faction units to prevent possible broken-combos in the future and allow developers to design faction-only upgrades while only considering in-faction units and ignoring other units.

Waiqar upgrades.

Until some kind of update changes things, the rules dictate that in a Waiqar army, you take Waiqar upgrades, no matter what faction the unit is normally.

Neutral upgrades

They belong to two armies : they are Daqan army units, and they are in a Waiqar army. Hence you can only take neutral

That is what makes sense to me until we get a ruling. And it makes sense for combos, etc so it's better to learn to play it the hard way than be disappointed later

1 hour ago, Corto said:

Neutral upgrades

They belong to two armies : they are Daqan army units, and they are in a Waiqar army. Hence you can only take neutral

That is what makes sense to me until we get a ruling. And it makes sense for combos, etc so it's better to learn to play it the hard way than be disappointed later

You're conflating faction with army . The two are not one and the same.

They do not belong to two armies, they belong to ONE army, since an "army" is the force being built. The army is Waiqar. This is the only criteria limiting what upgrades can be attached.

They similarly belong to one Faction, that faction being Daqan. This criteria only affects which armies can take the unit, and this rule is circumvented by Ankaur Maro's command ability. Again, unit faction has no interaction with upgrade faction, as per Rule 88.

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RRG page 20, RR-88.7 "Upgrade cards that have a faction icon can only be equipped in armies of that faction"

There is no need for a ruling unless the designers intend to change something. (which would be pure speculation) The rules as written are very clear, and should be played as such.

There is no rule contradicting this, calling it into question, nor is there any precedent to doubt it.

Technically that means you can put a Necromancer in a Spearmen unit.... lol..
Whether or not thats actually a smart idea is another question but its funny. They dont have access to the offensively better champions the Daqans have so why not for 3pts lol

5 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Technically that means you can put a Necromancer in a Spearmen unit.... lol..
Whether or not thats actually a smart idea is another question but its funny. They dont have access to the offensively better champions the Daqans have so why not for 3pts lol

Yep. Similarly, I don't know if this is really a *good* idea, but it's something worth trying out.

Might be better suited to a unit of heavy X-bowmen, to offset ranged casualties.

I also don't see anything preventing you from putting Ardus in the front of a Spearman unit or any other unique upgrade from Waiqar for that matter.

I very worried about how all these combos can be playtested and balanced.

20 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

I also don't see anything preventing you from putting Ardus in the front of a Spearman unit or any other unique upgrade from Waiqar for that matter.

I very worried about how all these combos can be playtested and balanced.

Starting with two blight on them, how much more dangerous could this possibly be than the same formation with a frontline rune golem, citadel weapon master, and moment of inspiration?

12 units from the other factions would all need to be playtested using Waiqar upgrades on top of everything else that needs to be balanced.

5 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

12 units from the other factions would all need to be playtested using Waiqar upgrades on top of everything else that needs to be balanced.

I'd imagine that happens for each new unit introduced. Why wouldn't it?

Similarly, somebody needs to playtest every single non-unique Latari unit with Daqan upgrades and Kari Wraithstalker.

In the back of the Oathsworn Cavalry expansion pamphlet I count 50+ playtesters. Seems feasible.

Say we are play testing Daqan alone. About 5 lists can get us a good result because there are 4 units.

with Kari that goes up to about 8 units. So 2x as many balance test games. If you do it well.

with Anker you have 16 unit combos to test plus 12 new upgrade card interactions. It more work to test this right, than adding 2 new armies from scratch if it is fully tested.

7 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

Say we are play testing Daqan alone. About 5 lists can get us a good result because there are 4 units.

with Kari that goes up to about 8 units. So 2x as many balance test games. If you do it well.

with Anker you have 16 unit combos to test plus 12 new upgrade card interactions. It more work to test this right, than adding 2 new armies from scratch if it is fully tested.

I'm left shrugging and wondering "So?"

Playtesting is work. As games grow, playtesting is MORE work. If you find a broken combo, be sure to let someone know.

31 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'd imagine that happens for each new unit introduced. Why wouldn't it?

Similarly, somebody needs to playtest every single non-unique Latari unit with Daqan upgrades and Kari Wraithstalker.

In the back of the Oathsworn Cavalry expansion pamphlet I count 50+ playtesters. Seems feasible.

I does seem feasible. However, m'lud I would direct your attention to evidence exhibit A: X-Wing

However , lets assume that all unit combos are tested to within an inch of their life and made balanced...

It does have a huge impact on the game design space - new upgrades are limited by potential cross-faction impacts they might have.

Personally I'd like to see the designers freed up to explore new and interesting upgrades for each faction without having to reign themselves in.

1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

I'm left shrugging and wondering "So?"

Playtesting is work. As games grow, playtesting is MORE work. If you find a broken combo, be sure to let someone know.

I know how you feel I can't figure out your responses either . Have a nice day.

1 minute ago, Drakoniss said:

I know how you feel I can't figure out your responses either . Have a nice day.

Well, clarify, then.

Are you trying to say "It is impossible to balance the game if this is true?" If so, say that.

Of course, it's not impossible. It's far from impossible.

My response to you is "If you find a broken combination, make it known". I don't particularly understand what about that is difficult to figure out.

3 minutes ago, maxam said:

I does seem feasible. However, m'lud I would direct your attention to evidence exhibit A: X-Wing

However , lets assume that all unit combos are tested to within an inch of their life and made balanced...

It does have a huge impact on the game design space - new upgrades are limited by potential cross-faction impacts they might have.

Personally I'd like to see the designers freed up to explore new and interesting upgrades for each faction without having to reign themselves in.

I think you overestimate the impact of Maro's ability. He's one hero, who can bring one unit, and that unit loses all of the faction and unit specific upgrades specifically designed to synergize with it.

Like I've said before, if you find a combo that breaks it, let someone know.

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I think you overestimate the impact of Maro's ability. He's one hero, who can bring one unit, and that unit loses all of the faction and unit specific upgrades specifically designed to synergize with it.

I don't think Maro breaks the game or leads to devastating combos now .

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Like I've said before, if you find a combo that breaks it, let someone know.

Again, c.f. X-Wing

Unfortunately due to the combination of FFG's production cycle and their insistence of addressing issues in upgrades/updates, by the time a "fix" arrives, the 'thoroughly playtested' game has already introduced new ones.

If the game was a car, it's like the driver (FFG) was driving only using the rear-view mirror.

I am aware that broken combos will appear in any game. Unfortunately I'm concerned with the "play testing" that FFG does - even in their most popular (and profitable) game X-Wing.

For example, within weeks of the Jumpmaster being released for X-Wing, even before it blew out the meta, the lead designer Alex Davy was interviewed on a podcast. To the question "Is the Jumpmaster overpowered or undercosted?" he replied "Probably a bit of both." This was in weeks after launch - so much for play testing. *facepalm*

Hopefully with Runewars, FFG will be more willing to fix issues through the FAQ, not through subsequent upgrades. Based on their card upgrade model, I'm confident.

Again, I don't think Maro is game breaking now... and even if he, or the cross-faction mechanic is game breaking now, at the very least it limits design space , at worst it will become so.

And I'm not objecting to RAW per se. I'm "raising an eyebrow."

45 minutes ago, maxam said:

I don't think Maro breaks the game or leads to devastating combos now .

Again, c.f. X-Wing

Unfortunately due to the combination of FFG's production cycle and their insistence of addressing issues in upgrades/updates, by the time a "fix" arrives, the 'thoroughly playtested' game has already introduced new ones.

If the game was a car, it's like the driver (FFG) was driving only using the rear-view mirror.

I am aware that broken combos will appear in any game. Unfortunately I'm concerned with the "play testing" that FFG does - even in their most popular (and profitable) game X-Wing.

For example, within weeks of the Jumpmaster being released for X-Wing, even before it blew out the meta, the lead designer Alex Davy was interviewed on a podcast. To the question "Is the Jumpmaster overpowered or undercosted?" he replied "Probably a bit of both." This was in weeks after launch - so much for play testing. *facepalm*

Hopefully with Runewars, FFG will be more willing to fix issues through the FAQ, not through subsequent upgrades. Based on their card upgrade model, I'm confident.

Again, I don't think Maro is game breaking now... and even if he, or the cross-faction mechanic is game breaking now, at the very least it limits design space , at worst it will become so.

And I'm not objecting to RAW per se. I'm "raising an eyebrow."

You're not wrong on any of this.

Skepticism and caution are good things, particularly when it comes to balance issues. Obviously, the process is not infallible, but you raise some valid precedent with the Jumpmaster release and subsequent issues.

I feel like I maybe just got off my original point.

The fact that a rule exists hardly means that rule shouldn't be questioned, and really, since people have doubts they should ask questions. All I'm really trying to get across is that for the moment the rules reference guide covers this situation, for people utilizing Ankaur Maro's commander ability.

To be fair, there are some genuine maybes about several rule interpretations right now that we are waiting on. I think everyone recognizes the need for a proper FAQ, but this is not strictly one of them. We have a functional rule, we're not making guesses or going with the best interpretation we can manage.

That said, I do personally still think you overestimate the potential impact of Maro's ability, but along that line of thinking, doesn't Ardus Ix'Erebus in many ways limit design space for Waiqar as a faction? After all, now every possible combination of surge ability on every Waiqar unit needs to be tested not just independently but on the same unit and in each unit with a squad leader upgrade slot.

I see these abilities, and I see heroes that will grow with the game, rather than becoming those tired old models we got in the core and now the meta has moved on.

I don't think for a second that Runewars will be totally without balance issues in the future, but as you say, I am confident that FFG is willing to address those balance issues that get past testing based on their willingness to do so in other games, such as the new Skirmish Attachments coming out for Imperial Assault that "fix" many of the older, poorly balanced skirmish units.

TL;DR - Good, we need more raised eyebrows like yours.

Technically only Latari infantry will need to be playtested with daqan cards, as Kari can only take infantry. Maro can take anything that isnt unique.

The two blight tokens really isnt an issue. You can slap in a Hexer to just dump it on other units or just burn a turn Rallying (which Spearmen in their usual army tend to do anyway) to remove all banes.

I do expect it to eventually be a problem, but i dont see it happening any time soon. Why? 50pt tax that is Maro to do it in the first place. It would have to be pretty dang broken to offset that kind of tax to the point where you literally only bring Maro because now you can bring unit X and you dont care about Maro in the slightest. Right now its more along the lines of getting the most out of your chosen hero, not bring the hero to get access to a ridiculous unit.

Ok i will bite. A concern is only a very small worry.

The most simple correlation I can think of is a card game I play test . The company makes a game where each deck is color coordinated. Blue, Red, Green, Black etc. The game was going great. Then the Blue deck got some of the red decks cards and they did not up the play testing time. But as a tester the combos to test where upped by 30% in the Blue deck. A few slipped through and 2 cards where banned in tournaments and new ones come up every time blue gets new cards, a never ending problem . Then Universal color cards where introduced into Black that came from the other 3. Mathematically the new combos where in the 100s above the norm. Now every time the put even one card into black you have to test 4 times as many games as putting a new card into red.

In summary my concern is whether or not they realize this.

To reiterate, concern is a small worry.

21 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

Ok i will bite. A concern is only a very small worry.

The most simple correlation I can think of is a card game I play test . The company makes a game where each deck is color coordinated. Blue, Red, Green, Black etc. The game was going great. Then the Blue deck got some of the red decks cards and they did not up the play testing time. But as a tester the combos to test where upped by 30% in the Blue deck. A few slipped through and 2 cards where banned in tournaments and new ones come up every time blue gets new cards, a never ending problem . Then Universal color cards where introduced into Black that came from the other 3. Mathematically the new combos where in the 100s above the norm. Now every time the put even one card into black you have to test 4 times as many games as putting a new card into red.

In summary my concern is whether or not they realize this.

To reiterate, concern is a small worry.

My concern as well. And my hope is that if it gets to the point where these combos start becoming broken, FFG doesn't try to fix all the little issues and instead just changes the rule to neutral-upgrades-only on out-of-faction units. It doesn't have to happen right away, but like you said, if the combos start getting to be too much to playtest sufficiently, it's better to just simplify the rules a bit.

I would comment but to busy play testing

8 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

The fact that a rule exists hardly means that rule shouldn't be questioned, and really, since people have doubts they should ask questions. All I'm really trying to get across is that for the moment the rules reference guide covers this situation, for people utilizing Ankaur Maro's commander ability.

I couldn't agree more - I guess I was trying to bend over backwards to distinguish between my raised eyebrow/concern and the the "this rule is lame and broken and has ruined the game (even though I haven't played it out yet)" mentality you often see in other games.

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To be fair, there are some genuine maybes about several rule interpretations right now that we are waiting on. I think everyone recognizes the need for a proper FAQ, but this is not strictly one of them. We have a functional rule, we're not making guesses or going with the best interpretation we can manage.

You're absolutely right - it doesn't need to be FAQed. RAW it works - and I kind of like it thematically too ... for whatever reason, troops have been seconded/press ganged into another faction - naturally they're going to be kitted out with that factions equipment and commanded by that factions officers etc.

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That said, I do personally still think you overestimate the potential impact of Maro's ability, but along that line of thinking, doesn't Ardus Ix'Erebus in many ways limit design space for Waiqar as a faction? After all, now every possible combination of surge ability on every Waiqar unit needs to be tested not just independently but on the same unit and in each unit with a squad leader upgrade slot.

Yeeesh you're right - not just every Waiqar unit ... every out of faction unit that Maro can add too...

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I see these abilities, and I see heroes that will grow with the game, rather than becoming those tired old models we got in the core and now the meta has moved on.

I could not agree more ... abilities/heroes that grow in value with the game in this way are the best.

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I don't think for a second that Runewars will be totally without balance issues in the future, but as you say, I am confident that FFG is willing to address those balance issues that get past testing based on their willingness to do so in other games, such as the new Skirmish Attachments coming out for Imperial Assault that "fix" many of the older, poorly balanced skirmish units.

Hear! Hear!

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TL;DR - Good, we need more raised eyebrows like yours.

13 hours ago, Ywingscum said:

I would comment but to busy play testing

The first rule of NDA is don't talk about NDA, or so I've been told. ?

13 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

My concern as well. And my hope is that if it gets to the point where these combos start becoming broken, FFG doesn't try to fix all the little issues and instead just changes the rule to neutral-upgrades-only on out-of-faction units. It doesn't have to happen right away, but like you said, if the combos start getting to be too much to playtest sufficiently, it's better to just simplify the rules a bit.

That is the most sensible approach.

It is official. The unit can only take Neutral upgrades.