Just now, JRosen9 said:

Actually it does mean they won't be running Pilgrimage. Both cards are void cards.

In regards to elemental fury, if that has a possibility of it being there, then you HAVE to plan that you will run into it. I would actually argue of the neutral effects so far, it actually has the least effect. Night raid could cause you to lose your hand which may mean not taking the province, Shameful can cause up to a 6 point swing in forces which may mean not taking the province, and Pilgrimage has a higher than average Province Strength which may mean not taking the province. Elemental Fury changes your ring benefit IF you win the conflict. If you lose the conflict it has no effect and unless your phoenix (or a few dragon cards) it has ZERO effect on the current conflict.

My bad then, as I said just 1 game(and it was before elements confirmation) :>

Yes yes you need to play around it(@Casanunda too) but sometimes you need to play to your outs - you see from the board that your only chance of winning is doing exactly that challenge - maybe they have a key character that you need to bow or kill otherwise he will singlehandedly take your stronghold, and you see from your hand you have no way of defending. At that time there is only one way - you go in and you play fifty fifty game. There is no "playing around it" you either do it or you lose.

I agree that in normal circumstances elemental fury is weaker than the other provinces. But this thing ^ actually doesn't happen that rarely.

The province flips feel worse and worse with each game. Right now when we play we know exactly which 5 provinces will be played each time and it's still almost impossible most of the time to play around effects. Most games are decided by turn 2. If your first attack just happens to flip into Shameful display or Elemental Fury it can often times be game ending.

Shameful display typically results in a 4-6 power swing minimum depending on how much fate the characters involved have. And there's no real counter play either. Your first attack you make in a game your opponent will always have the ability to defend.

Elemental Fury is a little bit different. The impact is more subtle. You get a very limited number of attacks each game and they all have to count. More importantly, the rings effects need to trigger. Or at the very least, the threat of the ring effects need to be there. So when you make an attack and the ring becomes useless it opens you up devastating counterattacks.

All of the Clan provinces(that are currently playable) and Night Raid are of minimal consequence. They have some level of game impact, but none of them actually affect the game in the moment. Your plans never go up in smoke with one of these flipping over.

The 5 health one that cancels ring effects is like a not as good version of Elemental Fury. Sometimes it's able to cancel ring effects, but more often it either does nothing or forces an opponent to use a pump. Usually you'll have to put in real work defending to block the ring effect which in turn defeats the purpose of the ring cancellation.

I'm kind of hoping they make a couple more provinces on par with Shameful Display and Elemental Fury. If all the provinces are crazy strong, then none of them are. But in the current game state too many games hinge on who happened to flip into the strong ones and who happened to flip into the weak ones.

2 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Disclaimer: I haven't played much, so a lot of this is theory.

In nu5R, having good characters is temporary. Therefore, the player who has most characters on the table at the moment will be attacking hard to take advantage of the temporary advantage, while the other player will want to wait them out. This means that the attacker will normally be the stronger player.

If you attack into the wrong province, it can completely mess up your day. As a result, wise attackers should be cautious - for example making a scouting attack with Military to reveal the province before they make the real attack with Political.

This slows the attack down, which means that the imbalanced game state won't lead to a loss of the game before the weaker player has a chance to correct it.

That would be true but often the strongest turn one flip is clan champion which actually puts you on the defensive first turn(but gives you many other advantages).

I really like the idea of scouting in the early game but in the mid/late it "sounds good, doesn't work". And actually the player that is losing is the one disadvataged at that time.

I find it funny that not too long ago everyone was talking about how bad elemental fury is and how everyone will play get rid of it as soon as possible and then in this thread its being talked about like its the end of the world. Lion will most likely NOT run Elemental Fury, so there's 15% of your games where you don't need to worry about it. And then if its as you say and you are behind and you had to have THAT specific ring effect to win, then you were most likely outplayed that for the most of the match and are in Hail Mary mode. Maybe the correct play is to just scout this turn and be ready to defend your stronghold from his assault and next turn go for the right province and his stronghold.

On an aside, we've already seen Phoenix has some ring manipulation with Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World. I would assume they will have more along these lines. If that's true, I would bet you see less of elemental fury in decks as it becomes a dead card against 1/7th of the clans any people that "banner" them.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

I find it funny that not too long ago everyone was talking about how bad elemental fury is and how everyone will play get rid of it as soon as possible and then in this thread its being talked about like its the end of the world. Lion will most likely NOT run Elemental Fury, so there's 15% of your games where you don't need to worry about it. And then if its as you say and you are behind and you had to have THAT specific ring effect to win, then you were most likely outplayed that for the most of the match and are in Hail Mary mode. Maybe the correct play is to just scout this turn and be ready to defend your stronghold from his assault.

On an aside, we've already seen Phoenix has some ring manipulation with Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World. I would assume they will have more along these lines. If that's true, I would bet you see less of elemental fury in decks as it becomes a dead card against 1/7th of the clans any people that "banner" them.

My personal experience with Elemental Fury is that it is typically the first Province attacked for some reason and it can really throw off first turn plans. That being said, Lion having to run Art of War instead of EF isn't that bad.

Muri Kuroi is the one Province I actually worry about more.

I wish elemental fury let the attacker choose the new ring. And I wish that shameful display let the defender honor a character OR dishonor a character, not both.

These changes would bring the provinces back in line with some of the others.

My other hope would be that the affiliated provinces would be stronger than the neutrals, but so far this is the opposite.

1 hour ago, JRosen9 said:

I find it funny that not too long ago everyone was talking about how bad elemental fury is and how everyone will play get rid of it as soon as possible and then in this thread its being talked about like its the end of the world. Lion will most likely NOT run Elemental Fury, so there's 15% of your games where you don't need to worry about it. And then if its as you say and you are behind and you had to have THAT specific ring effect to win, then you were most likely outplayed that for the most of the match and are in Hail Mary mode. Maybe the correct play is to just scout this turn and be ready to defend your stronghold from his assault and next turn go for the right province and his stronghold.

On an aside, we've already seen Phoenix has some ring manipulation with Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World. I would assume they will have more along these lines. If that's true, I would bet you see less of elemental fury in decks as it becomes a dead card against 1/7th of the clans any people that "banner" them.

**** dude something bit you in the ***?

You just said in the earlier post that nobody aside from game testers know how the provinces will pan out so why are you saying now that Lion won't play elemental fury?

Yeah maybe some people did feel elemental fury is weak, and guess what they did later, they played the game. Yes you often need THAT specific ring and I don't understand why misplaying or not earlier makes it any more acceptable to narrow your game down to a coinflip. And no scouting the province is not the correct play almost ever in the late game - it doesn't further your win conditions and it often helps your opponent fulfill theirs. Also please don't talk to me about "hail mary mode" if you don't know what playing to your outs means or didn't even try playing the game to see how the late game tempo works.

About phoenix cards you listed, none of them make elemental fury "dead" at all.

11 minutes ago, BordOne said:

**** dude something bit you in the ***?

You just said in the earlier post that nobody aside from game testers know how the provinces will pan out so why are you saying now that Lion won't play elemental fury?

This can be said because of known information. Elemental Fury is a Water Province. Art of War is a Water Province. Both provinces cannot be played in the same deck. I am willing to bet more Lion players will play Art of War over Elemental Fury.

Quote

Yeah maybe some people did feel elemental fury is weak, and guess what they did later, they played the game. Yes you often need THAT specific ring and I don't understand why misplaying or not earlier makes it any more acceptable to narrow your game down to a coinflip. And no scouting the province is not the correct play almost ever in the late game - it doesn't further your win conditions and it often helps your opponent fulfill theirs. Also please don't talk to me about "hail mary mode" if you don't know what playing to your outs means or didn't even try playing the game to see how the late game tempo works.

Guess what? No one except playtesters have played the game yet. Anyone proxying right now is playing illegal decks made with approximately 32% of the card pool. So discounting peoples arguments because they "haven't played the game" is a falacy. I do know what playing your outs means but your giving a partial set of data. Your argument is that your game comes down to a coin flip because you NEED to have 1 specific ring to shut down your opponent's attack on your stronghold next. Well whats the rest of the board state? If he attacks you all out and you defend all out can you stop him from taking the stronghold? IF your ONLY play to win the game at that point is to take a SPECIFIC ring that turn, then I would say that your opponent outplayed you and at that point in the game is probably more deserving of the win. You can flip your argument on its head. If you see this, than your opponent can be assumed to see the same thing. He's saying if he attacks this province (elemental fury) I can finish this game Now, but if he attacks this one i have to put more effort into defending it to close out the game this turn.

Yes it can suck to win/lose a game on a coin flip (trust me I know this from plenty of experiences with BSG board game and using the FTL location). However, it is your play that led you to that situation in the first place.

2 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

Guess what? No one except playtesters have played the game yet. Anyone proxying right now is playing illegal decks made with approximately 32% of the card pool. So discounting peoples arguments because they "haven't played the game" is a falacy.

Oh thanks, I am glad then that I was talking about it's CURRENT STATE! And you not knowing about the binary nature of win conditions in this game comes exactly from "not playing it". Scouting and defending gives you close to nothing because in this game you either have the tempo or not and making low tempo plays does not provide you with any of it! Shocking!

4 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

IF your ONLY play to win the game at that point is to take a SPECIFIC ring that turn, then I would say that your opponent outplayed you and at that point in the game is probably more deserving of the win.

Imagine a magical land where elemental fury does not exist and you rolling less than 4 does not count as "being outplayed". What a great place to live in, sounds just like home!

I don't care who is more deserving of the win. I care about the result of whole game changing due to choosing a wrong, faced down piece of paper.

14 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

You can flip your argument on its head. If you see this, than your opponent can be assumed to see the same thing. He's saying if he attacks this province (elemental fury) I can finish this game Now, but if he attacks this one i have to put more effort into defending it to close out the game this turn.

What are you dude? Does he have any influence on what I flip? Does anything outside of pure luck come into the equasion? Him planning what he want to do is secondary it is all dependent on rng.

24 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

Yes it can suck to win/lose a game on a coin flip (trust me I know this from plenty of experiences with BSG board game and using the FTL location). However, it is your play that led you to that situation in the first place.

I don't care what led me to the situation in the first place. It might have been a misplay. It might have been simply my opponent going first. It doesn't matter because you can clearly see that the whole thing would be much more interesting and healthy if it didn't come down to pure luck.

Just fyi I actually won more of the games due to that than lost, I really don't need lecturing on my "bad plays" from somebody who didn't even try it out yet.

31 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I don't care what led me to the situation in the first place. It might have been a misplay. It might have been simply my opponent going first. It doesn't matter because you can clearly see that the whole thing would be much more interesting and healthy if it didn't come down to pure luck.

More than anything this new version of L5R is series of decisions that lead to an outcome. Yes, the final one of those decisions may have come down to a coin flip between losing the game or not at that point. However, every decision point in the game led to that. Other decisions previously may have led it not to come to that point.

And its a CARD game. By definition, the game is full of luck. Does my opponent top deck the one card that can beat me? Does my opponent get a turn 1 chagatai and take all four of my provinces before I buy a guy? Does someone who has no business being in this hand beat me on the river? Its all luck. Think of it this way. Would you have just as much issue if the rule said "Choose 1 of your provinces to be under your stronghold. Then shuffle your remaining provinces and place them in a deck. Whenever an opponent attacks one of your provinces that does not have an attached province, draw 1 province from this deck and attach it to the province." That rule I just made up has the exact same mechanical effect as what we have right now but I think you would be more ok with it because its no different than top decking a card. If your issue is with the effect of the card, I have a feeling you are really going to hate playing against Phoenix. (Also there are other provinces with stronger effects that have been previewed so far).

6 hours ago, JRosen9 said:

And its a CARD game. By definition, the game is full of luck. Does my opponent top deck the one card that can beat me? Does my opponent get a turn 1 chagatai and take all four of my provinces before I buy a guy? Does someone who has no business being in this hand beat me on the river? Its all luck. Think of it this way. Would you have just as much issue if the rule said "Choose 1 of your provinces to be under your stronghold. Then shuffle your remaining provinces and place them in a deck. Whenever an opponent attacks one of your provinces that does not have an attached province, draw 1 province from this deck and attach it to the province." That rule I just made up has the exact same mechanical effect as what we have right now but I think you would be more ok with it because its no different than top decking a card. If your issue is with the effect of the card, I have a feeling you are really going to hate playing against Phoenix. (Also there are other provinces with stronger effects that have been previewed so far).

Yeah luck and playing around with it is inherent for card games, doesn't mean adding cards/effects that generate random outcomes does any good for it(ahem hearthstone). But hey if you like it more power to you.

I am just giving my impressions from playing a few games with it. If you will have a chance try it out too and let me know should the gameplay experience change your opinion at all.

I feel it would be much cooler if opponent could actually choose which province he is defending with, that would create really intelligent gameplay and ultimately test your knowledge of the cards instead of paper flipping skills.

Anyway if you will test the game anytime soon feel free to pm me I would like to hear your impressions.

I play multiple games a week: Scouting is HUGE. I try to know 3, and sometimes 4, enemy provinces by the end of turn 2.

Doesn't always work out but it's not that hard to plan for.

I also feel like Elemental Fury is being way overblown here. It's a one time effect that, while annoying is rarely game breaking.

Shameful Display is the province you want to use if you're barking up the "provinces are broken" tree as that effect can straight up crush certain Clans (Lion, Crane specifically but really it can mess up most).

@Reiga How do you manage not to get out - tempoed by your opponent? By the end of turn one you will know one, max two provinces and sometimes break one of them, opponent the same. Usually you follow up by attacking the provinces you already know - if you don't it greatly increases the chance of you not breaking them and often not even getting ring benefits which wastes your conflit for the turn all while the opponent is destroying your provinces that he have already seen(making their abilites weaker) and getting far ahead in tempo. If you know 4 provinces by the end of turn two it means you probably didn't break any of them or just one, while opponent usually has 2 already.

Yes this kind of play does make Elemental Fury effect weaker but it just looks like setting yourself up for defeat. I am open to counter arguments though.

I unfortunately wouldn't say elemental fury deciding games is that rare(it might be due to small card pool). I am always happy to flip it as first or second province though(even though it can still mess you up).

I am not barking at anything and nowhere did I say "provinces are broken" rather than "they don't feel good". Shameful display is strong but it ultimately comes down to a strength bump which is not as hard to swallow as denying your ability to strategically plan ahead. It can be problematic too though we just play it on the stronghold most of the time

On 29/06/2017 at 7:47 PM, Badmojojojo said:

Badmojojojo and Kiramode have chosen the name Conflicting Dynasties and uploaded their first game using the newly revealed Dragon clan cards.

VS system deck backers and Star Wars playmats and Warhammer tokens and referring to Let Go as a zero mana spell... MY BRAIN

8 hours ago, Fumo said:

VS system deck backers and Star Wars playmats and Warhammer tokens and referring to Let Go as a zero mana spell... MY BRAIN

We play a lot of card games. We are going to work on nailing down terminology for this game. MtG terminology is the common tongue that I usually fall back on when playing a new game to get used to stuff.

As for tokens and mats.....until the game comes out we're going to keep Macgyver-ing this until we get proper product.

16 hours ago, BordOne said:

@Reiga How do you manage not to get out - tempoed by your opponent? By the end of turn one you will know one, max two provinces and sometimes break one of them, opponent the same. Usually you follow up by attacking the provinces you already know - if you don't it greatly increases the chance of you not breaking them and often not even getting ring benefits which wastes your conflit for the turn all while the opponent is destroying your provinces that he have already seen(making their abilites weaker) and getting far ahead in tempo. If you know 4 provinces by the end of turn two it means you probably didn't break any of them or just one, while opponent usually has 2 already.

Yes this kind of play does make Elemental Fury effect weaker but it just looks like setting yourself up for defeat. I am open to counter arguments though.

I unfortunately wouldn't say elemental fury deciding games is that rare(it might be due to small card pool). I am always happy to flip it as first or second province though(even though it can still mess you up).

I usually have one "main" conflict a turn, my defense and another "scouting" conflict.

With Lion, for instance I'll usually commit half my forces to an initial MIL conflict with Water (either to unbow defenders if I'm second or to bow an attacker). Defend with a couple guys depending on board state and then attack again with a Deathseeker + whoever is left, for instance.

I try and limit the opponent's options wherever possible via bowing, harpooning, or must-defend challenges (like a void ring Mil against their lone champ).

In general I try to slow the game down to a single province per side and if I can bow out their side that prevents scouting.

Of course there's no universal panacea and this doesn't always work but in general I plan on and play more defensively than most streams I've seen.

4 hours ago, kiramode said:

We play a lot of card games. We are going to work on nailing down terminology for this game. MtG terminology is the common tongue that I usually fall back on when playing a new game to get used to stuff.

As for tokens and mats.....until the game comes out we're going to keep Macgyver-ing this until we get proper product.

It wasn't a real criticism. I played most of those games myself at one time or another so it wasn't much of an issue.

Just seemed that these could be really useful for new players who maybe aren't so familiar with card game concepts and so might find the references a bit distracting.

*goes back to rolling around in dozens of old5r playmats and honour counters*

On 6/30/2017 at 10:28 AM, BordOne said:

It is just that I cannot think of anything worse than watching world tournament finals only to see a game coming down to a 4+ dice roll. Hopefully it will never happen.

I agree that sucks. Seen too many other games with the element of chance mitigated as much as possible, yet still come down to one piece of random draw. The province isn't the only random element either. Two decks to draw from is a lot of luck.

14 hours ago, Fumo said:

VS system deck backers and Star Wars playmats and Warhammer tokens and referring to Let Go as a zero mana spell... MY BRAIN

Not enough? We can add some more elements like mana beads, Game of Thrones music, Pixel Tactics art, UFS game pump references, and Exceed Life counters.

5 hours ago, Badmojojojo said:

I agree that sucks. Seen too many other games with the element of chance mitigated as much as possible, yet still come down to one piece of random draw. The province isn't the only random element either. Two decks to draw from is a lot of luck.

Yeah but there are some things in the card game we cannot dodge

Not enough defending, too much attack>no defender> break province. what are your thoughts on the advantage of going first?

I think going first is an advantage because it gets first dibs on rings. Once more clans are revealed, if they have the option of a defense bonus such as acquiring the ring effects, then it may be a viable option.