Just now, takfar said:

One could argue autothrusters is pretty much an anti-turret upgrade, and an important one, at that.

Also works at Range3, which counters ordnance lists since they want to sit at R3 to potentially get multiple ordnances back to back and they deny R3 extra die anyway.

Never said having a card that was clearly favoring countering another, even the one i suggested is almost purely against bombs, but it has to have the ability to do something to OTHER things too. Both because its completely wasted points if you buy it and never face a bomb (Autos you still get at R3, regardless of weapon type, and it happens a LOT).

Also, not like anyone can say autos is a hard counter to turrets to the point that turrets are pointless. A ton of the anti-bomb suggests would be that strong vs bombs. Clearly Autos arent op vs turrets when turrets are still all over the bloody place.

1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

Except ideally, a game about dogfighting in space would be about dogfighting in space. IE: arc dodging.

It shouldn't be "Star Wars: Bomber-wing"

Your so-called "Cancer" of Arc-dodging should be a viable playstyle instead of basically being a suicidal way to play.

as @takfar mentioned, the problem with arc-dodging is the fact that it is by design combined with damage cancellation, leading to perhaps the biggest NPE in the game of "congratulations, you made the right decisions and caught me in arc but I rolled one eyeball* and thus nullified the whole attack. you get NOTHING!"

in my humble opinion, green dice should've never been a thing, and defensive actions should be the domain of bulky ships that are relatively easy to target. A ship's maneuverability should be represented only by the dial, rather than a dial and green dice and defensive actions. Maybe in X-Wing 2.0 if that ever happens.

55 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Token stackers still actually require skill to play. Unlike just "drop bombz evareewhere!"

If you've got Palpatine, that also means you've devoted at least 1/3 of your list to a shuttle that isn't doing much besides try and keep Palp alive.

Arc dodgers are actually fun. Sabine-bombs and Jumpmasters are decidedly unfun.

Arc dodgers are fun to play, but not neccessarily fun to play against. I absolutely despise playing against the likes of Soontir Fel and Inquisitor. Sabine bombs are not NPE if you're not playing glass cannons (and know what to expect) and the only reasons jumpmasters are unfun are because a) they're overpowered and b) they've been all over the place for over a year, they're actually a really interesting design.

*autothrusters, focus, evade, palp turning one eyeball and 2+ blanks into 4 evades.

Given that everybody and their mother has a turret weapon, arc dodging already is less important. So you don't need to catch soontir in arc to shoot him. And if he rolls 1 eyeball, and has to blow a focus, an evade, and palpatine, to stay alive, he's not going to have any more tokens. Shoot him with your other ships. It's not like soontir can one shot most ships. He's only got 3 attack dice and no target lock.

Soontir gives you a lot of chances to kill him while he whittles you down. The current madness just annhilates stuff in one pass. He fights fair at least. He needs half your list in support to stay alive.

Also, given that he can't kill stuff quickly, you have time to kill the Palp shuttle. That's a huge chunk of his survivability right there. He also at best has one other wingman. You can kill them too.

46 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Given that everybody and their mother has a turret weapon, arc dodging already is less important. So you don't need to catch soontir in arc to shoot him. And if he rolls 1 eyeball, and has to blow a focus, an evade, and palpatine, to stay alive, he's not going to have any more tokens. Shoot him with your other ships. It's not like soontir can one shot most ships. He's only got 3 attack dice and no target lock.

Soontir gives you a lot of chances to kill him while he whittles you down. The current madness just annhilates stuff in one pass. He fights fair at least. He needs half your list in support to stay alive.

Also, given that he can't kill stuff quickly, you have time to kill the Palp shuttle. That's a huge chunk of his survivability right there. He also at best has one other wingman. You can kill them too.

Soontir having to blow up focus, evade and palp on a single attack is only if he only rolls 1 eyeball against a 4-hit attack.

Soontir + palp shuttle costs 61-64 points. That's three to six points more than DengarTel Dengar alone. and seeing as I belive the jumpmaster chassis to be 3 to 4 points too cheap, it actually breaks even if you account for that

Until bomb K-Wings came around, the list-defining factor was "can this kill Soontir?" Any squadron unable to do so was flushed down the drain. Any list unable of generating at least two solid attacks on top of bumping an ace wasn't even worth considering. Every meta-dominant squadron in the game of today or the past will get dismantled by a squadron engineered purely for killing that particular list. Until Sabine came into existence, palpaces did not abide by that rule.

P.S. Arc-dodgers have autothrusters, so most of the time they don't really care about out-of-arc attacks. and seeing as most of those turreted ships rely on ordnance for dealing with said arc-dodgers...

Is a counter for bombs really necessary when they're only seeing play with one(possibly 2 or 3 next wave) ship combos? I mean currently we only see them with Sabine & Kwings and basically nothing else. We might end up seeing Nym as he can kinda do the same thing as a Kwing, if only a bit less effective. Rebel Nym might also see some play as he can basically create no-fly zones on call.

Currently on their own merits bombs kinda suck and have sucked for a long time, it's only the supporting abilities of Nym, Sabine, or Adv.Slam that make them good. It stands to reason that if bombs become a real issue that you weaken these cards instead of making the bombs suck even more than they currently do for every other ship.

That being said, I could get behind some ace specific upgrade against non-attack auto damage if it was introduced at the same time as new bombs/upgrades that actually mattered against high health targets. Maybe something that rolls extra red die based off of health?

Mod - 2 points - Heavy Payload

Bombs dropped by this ship roll 1 extra red die for damage for every 3 maximum health above 3.

So basically bombs don't get any better or worse against the low health targets they're already good against but can now actually pose a threat to something like a Caster or Deci. If bombs are no longer so useless against high health targets I think it'd be perfectly fine to give the low health arc dodgers some more counter play cards against them.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Also works at Range3, which counters ordnance lists since they want to sit at R3 to potentially get multiple ordnances back to back and they deny R3 extra die anyway.

Never said having a card that was clearly favoring countering another, even the one i suggested is almost purely against bombs, but it has to have the ability to do something to OTHER things too. Both because its completely wasted points if you buy it and never face a bomb (Autos you still get at R3, regardless of weapon type, and it happens a LOT).

Also, not like anyone can say autos is a hard counter to turrets to the point that turrets are pointless. A ton of the anti-bomb suggests would be that strong vs bombs. Clearly Autos arent op vs turrets when turrets are still all over the bloody place.

Again, I find autothrusters to be a good card, and I agree it has some other uses, but I do still consider it to be almost an "anti-turret tax". Think abut it: would people be paying 2 points AND a mod slot (or even just the mod slot) if it did not include the not-in-arc bonus? Or would people take AT in an event in which turrets are banned?

Your suggested title is interesting. Could also lead to new obstacle-related tactics. Not sure it should be restricted to TIEs, tho. Maybe make it a single-point EPT, as it thematically revolves around piloting skill, and people would have to choose whether to take that defensive talent over other available options.

56 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Given that everybody and their mother has a turret weapon, arc dodging already is less important. So you don't need to catch soontir in arc to shoot him. And if he rolls 1 eyeball, and has to blow a focus, an evade, and palpatine, to stay alive, he's not going to have any more tokens. Shoot him with your other ships. It's not like soontir can one shot most ships. He's only got 3 attack dice and no target lock.

Soontir gives you a lot of chances to kill him while he whittles you down. The current madness just annhilates stuff in one pass. He fights fair at least. He needs half your list in support to stay alive.

Also, given that he can't kill stuff quickly, you have time to kill the Palp shuttle. That's a huge chunk of his survivability right there. He also at best has one other wingman. You can kill them too.

Well, yes, killing the Lambda is the clear way to go. Still, it takes a couple turns to chase down and then whittle away 10 HP with a palp inside. Meanwhile, the escort is free to take shots at your ships. By the time you've blown up the Lambda, you're likely to have been damaged significantly, and even without Palp, your chance to damage a focus+evade interceptor that you manage to get in arc with 3 atk dice is still 22%. My point being: there needs to be some way to overcome tokenstacking in the game.

At any rate, this discussion is way past its time. The game's designers clearly agreed that tokenstackers were overpowered, which led to the TLT and the buffs to bombs. Which led to a whole new problem, with TLTs being too effective with a low skill ceiling, and now Sabine being too dominant. And yet, Atanni lists remain an example of the power of action-economy and, to a certain point, tokenstacking. All of which hurt the actual arc-dodging mechanics, which, again, are fine in essence, and should be integral to the game.

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:39 PM, Odanan said:

This is a cool idea. I would make it a modification though. That way you really need to think about whether its worth it to take. As a zero point title it would pretty much go on every TIE automatically.

Also, it's a little too narrow of a counter. As an example, Collision Detector is designed to be another option for boosting, barrel rolling and cloaking ships, but it also has a small benefit for everybody else by letting you ignore crits on obstacle rolls.

Maybe add in some small benefit that would be situationally good even if your opponent has no bombs in their list.

11 hours ago, Elavion said:

Ask yourself: Why are bombs good?

The answer is simple- it's unavoidable damage. And when is unavoidable damage good? You guessed it- against low HP aces. Any anti-bombs upgrade may as well be replaced with a direct bombs nerf- and if aces ignore them, there's literally no point bringing them. Against higher HP ships they're simply suboptimal choices compared to regular ordnance.

Yeah, but TWO unavoidable damage against a three hull ship is not great. I think an upgrade that gives you the chance (not guarantee!) to block one damage per bomb wouldn't make bombs unusable. It would just make fragile aces a bit more usable. Alternatively, make Sabine a die roll. Does the same thing from the other direction.

Seismic torpedo errata.

Boom. it's all better now.

On 6/28/2017 at 6:39 PM, Odanan said:

I've been thinking about this idea for the past two days and the more I think about it the more I like it. An upgrade that straight up blocked bomb damage would defeat the whole point of bombs, which would be kinda lame. But this is an elegant and thematic counter- someone drops a bomb nearby so you react quickly by barrel rolling away from it.

I would tweak a couple things on it though- it seems like it would make a much better modification rather than a title, like someone else mentioned.

Also, for 0 points I would have it only trigger when enemy ships drop bombs. But for 1 point, I would let it trigger when any ship drops a bomb nearby- this would allow it to have some utility even if your opponent didn't bring any bombs, and let you perform shenanigans by dropping a bomb and barrel rolling your entire squad away from it.

Alternatively, if it needed to be more universally applicable, you could have it trigger under certain other circumstances, too, like when you run over an obstacle or when someone acquires a target lock on you or when someone overlaps you. Any one of which would give this upgrade a bit of utability in situations when there aren't bombs present.

An EPT or modification that lets you take a boost or barrel roll after opponent finishes a move within Range 1 would be a way to combat bombs, without actually referencing them. Akin to Snapshot, but instead you boost or barrel roll out of the way of a bomb (or arc).

48 minutes ago, Superstrength79 said:

An EPT or modification that lets you take a boost or barrel roll after opponent finishes a move within Range 1 would be a way to combat bombs, without actually referencing them. Akin to Snapshot, but instead you boost or barrel roll out of the way of a bomb (or arc).

I like the idea... Wouldn't be cheap, tho, as it would strongly affect jousting, too. Low PS arc dodging, in a sense. Fenn would hate it.

One option would be to make it" you may perform a free barrel roll if an enemy ship finishes a move within range 1 and you are not in their arc, (if your ship can't barrel roll, eat a stress token, yadda yadda) "

I wouldnt make you have to be out of arc. That doesn't quite make sense.

Just be,

Evasive Maneuvers: ''If an enemy ship activates or ends a maneuver within range 1, you may perform a free barrel roll action. If your action bar does not have the barrel roll action, receive 1 stress token.''

3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I've been thinking about this idea for the past two days and the more I think about it the more I like it. An upgrade that straight up blocked bomb damage would defeat the whole point of bombs, which would be kinda lame. But this is an elegant and thematic counter- someone drops a bomb nearby so you react quickly by barrel rolling away from it.

I would tweak a couple things on it though- it seems like it would make a much better modification rather than a title, like someone else mentioned.

Also, for 0 points I would have it only trigger when enemy ships drop bombs. But for 1 point, I would let it trigger when any ship drops a bomb nearby- this would allow it to have some utility even if your opponent didn't bring any bombs, and let you perform shenanigans by dropping a bomb and barrel rolling your entire squad away from it.

Alternatively, if it needed to be more universally applicable, you could have it trigger under certain other circumstances, too, like when you run over an obstacle or when someone acquires a target lock on you or when someone overlaps you. Any one of which would give this upgrade a bit of utability in situations when there aren't bombs present.

The idea was to make TIEs harder to bomb and make the Empire strong in at least something. Since every TIE has these thrusters by default, I thought it would be more adequate to make it a 0 cost title (and not a modification), but I will change it for something limited to range 1 and enemy ships, for "balance".

Okay, what about a crew? Say Thrawn* or something generic like "Battlefield Strategist".

"Immediately after the Setup phase, all friendly ships may ignore 1 hit result from obstacles or mines/bombs if more than one damage is issued. Treat Critical Hits as Hit results."

I feel like this will still keep bombs/mines playable without COMPLETELY neutering them, sticks with the thematic element where the Imperials aren't bumbling idiots, and allows their unshielded ships to survive a bit longer by having a higher up scream from a command ship "NO, STUPID! DON'T DO THAT!"

*this would be on top of some other crew ability he would have as well that doesn't have any bearing on this topic at the moment

3 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Okay, what about a crew? Say Thrawn* or something generic like "Battlefield Strategist".

"Immediately after the Setup phase, all friendly ships may ignore 1 hit result from obstacles or mines/bombs if more than one damage is issued. Treat Critical Hits as Hit results."

I feel like this will still keep bombs/mines playable without COMPLETELY neutering them, sticks with the thematic element where the Imperials aren't bumbling idiots, and allows their unshielded ships to survive a bit longer by having a higher up scream from a command ship "NO, STUPID! DON'T DO THAT!"

*this would be on top of some other crew ability he would have as well that doesn't have any bearing on this topic at the moment

Well, like I said, something that straight up canceled bomb-damage would defeat the purpose of bombs: dealing unblockable damage. One way or the other an upgrade card like that is going to cause someone's cards to be wasted points in every match. Not very fun.

A free barrel roll mechanic is just the opposite. Bombs can still be effective- you just have to land them close enough to their target that they can't BR far enough away. It requires both players to pay close attention to their positioning and obstacle placement and the movement of other ships so that you can either leave an avenue of escape-by-barrel-roll or cut off such avenues, depending on what player you are.

It would be a helpful upgrade without being an auto-win upgrade. It would require both players to use their skill and judgement and talents to out-maneuver each other to come out on top (hey, that kind of sounds like the whole point of this X-Wing game we all play).

In short: a repositioning counter to bombs creates a more interesting and fun game for both players. A damage-cancelling counter does the opposite.

3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

A free barrel roll mechanic is just the opposite. Bombs can still be effective- you just have to land them close enough to their target that they can't BR far enough away. It requires both players to pay close attention to their positioning and obstacle placement and the movement of other ships so that you can either leave an avenue of escape-by-barrel-roll or cut off such avenues, depending on what player you are.

I'd make sure to make it small ship only, tho. Big ship barrel roll would be more likely to clear the distance, provided there's space for it. Also, big ships have enough health to eat up a bomb and survive.

3 hours ago, takfar said:

I'd make sure to make it small ship only, tho. Big ship barrel roll would be more likely to clear the distance, provided there's space for it. Also, big ships have enough health to eat up a bomb and survive.

100% agreed.

I think if it was completely up to me, I'd go with something like this (pending playtesting):

Defensive Thrusters

Modification. Small ship only.

When a bomb token is deployed within distance 1 of you, or when a ship acquires a target lock on you, you may perform a free barrel roll action.

Yoy may not equip this card if your action bar does not have the <barrel roll icon> action.

1 point.

This is makes it useful in several different situations, and even creates some fun (but not broken) shenanigans with things like free barrel rolls off of friendly bombs or FCS. And free barrel rolls against Target Locks gives it a little bit of utility against most missiles and torpedos, as well as things like K4 Security Droids, but not a whole lot of utility because your opponent gets to decide whether or not to take the target lock in the first place, and most times a barrel roll by itself isn't enough to dodge an arc.

I also don't mind opening it up to any small ship with barrel rolls. Most rebel and scum ships with barrel rolls have other modifications they would usually take, so it would still benefit imperials the most since the modification slot on TIEs often goes unused.

With Guidence chips, Sabine and now Cad Bane, i think ist time for a Tech or Sysrem upgrade something like Disruptor emitter/Sensoer coordinator that lets you choose one die from the ordnance result and turn it into a blank or something similar. Takes the edhe off both Miranda bombers and Torp boats.

8 hours ago, Ram said:

With Guidence chips, Sabine and now Cad Bane, i think ist time for a Tech or Sysrem upgrade something like Disruptor emitter/Sensoer coordinator that lets you choose one die from the ordnance result and turn it into a blank or something similar. Takes the edhe off both Miranda bombers and Torp boats.

...

*sigh*

16 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Well, like I said, something that straight up canceled bomb-damage would defeat the purpose of bombs: dealing unblockable damage. One way or the other an upgrade card like that is going to cause someone's cards to be wasted points in every match. Not very fun.

A free barrel roll mechanic is just the opposite. Bombs can still be effective- you just have to land them close enough to their target that they can't BR far enough away. It requires both players to pay close attention to their positioning and obstacle placement and the movement of other ships so that you can either leave an avenue of escape-by-barrel-roll or cut off such avenues, depending on what player you are.

It would be a helpful upgrade without being an auto-win upgrade. It would require both players to use their skill and judgement and talents to out-maneuver each other to come out on top (hey, that kind of sounds like the whole point of this X-Wing game we all play).

In short: a repositioning counter to bombs creates a more interesting and fun game for both players. A damage-cancelling counter does the opposite.

Actually, when I think about it, Bombs should actually be most effective vs slow large ships. And be not very effective vs agile ships(unless they're in a dense swarm that can't avoid the bomb).

Think about it. A bomb drops and it has some time before it goes off. It's going to be visible on scanners and such. Smaller ships should have a much easier time of avoiding it, while larger less maneuverable ships should have a harder time.

Bombs are also traditionally used vs hard targets, not fast agile ones.

Not to mention bombs in space don't actually work all that well... Cause you know, vacuum...

27 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Actually, when I think about it, Bombs should actually be most effective vs slow large ships. And be not very effective vs agile ships(unless they're in a dense swarm that can't avoid the bomb).

Think about it. A bomb drops and it has some time before it goes off. It's going to be visible on scanners and such. Smaller ships should have a much easier time of avoiding it, while larger less maneuverable ships should have a harder time.

Bombs are also traditionally used vs hard targets, not fast agile ones.

Not to mention bombs in space don't actually work all that well... Cause you know, vacuum...

I agree with this a lot. My idea, been thinking about this some, ace haters will hate but it makes sense. Bombs should be avoidable so...

errata to bombs:When detonated all ships in range of the explosion roll their defense dice. If their evades equal or exceed the damage the bomb would cause they avoid the damage.

This would go with BM's take on bombs as high agi ships get a chance to dodge and bigger ships pretty much are going to eat it. It doesn't hurt sabine or bombs in general and nerfs nothing but gives aces what many want, a chance to not be wasted by a lucky UNAVOIDABLE shot. Too simple?

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

Well, like I said, something that straight up canceled bomb-damage would defeat the purpose of bombs: dealing unblockable damage. One way or the other an upgrade card like that is going to cause someone's cards to be wasted points in every match. Not very fun.

A free barrel roll mechanic is just the opposite. Bombs can still be effective- you just have to land them close enough to their target that they can't BR far enough away. It requires both players to pay close attention to their positioning and obstacle placement and the movement of other ships so that you can either leave an avenue of escape-by-barrel-roll or cut off such avenues, depending on what player you are.

It would be a helpful upgrade without being an auto-win upgrade. It would require both players to use their skill and judgement and talents to out-maneuver each other to come out on top (hey, that kind of sounds like the whole point of this X-Wing game we all play).

In short: a repositioning counter to bombs creates a more interesting and fun game for both players. A damage-cancelling counter does the opposite.

Yes, I read that and I had a better opinion so I posted it...

Jokes aside, there is a strong point to making upgrades of the type that I suggest. System and tech slots are still fairly rare and not that many ships that has one is widely used. Such an upgrade might make the T70 or Bwing back into competition at the same time as it might limit the impact of K-bombers and torp boats.

I still like your idea though.

2 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

I agreais a lwithMy ideatn morthi nking abouts some, ac e hrs will hate b ut it makes sen se. Boould be avoidable so...

erAllrata to bombs:When deed all ships in range of the e xplosion roll their defense dice. If their evades equal or exceed the damage the bomb would cause they avoid the damage.

This would go with BM's take on bombs as high agi ships get a chance to dodge and bigger ships pretty much are going to eat it. It doesn't hurt sabine or bombs in general and nerfs nothing but gives aces what many want, a chance to not be wasted by a lucky UNAVOIDABLE shot. Too simple?

Yeah. I would like bombs to do a set amount of damage which then you roll agility vs to reduce.

Bombs: each bomb type has a damage value. All ships within the area of effect of a bomb are hit ewith that amount of damage. All ships hit may then roll a number of green defense dice equak to their agility. For every evade result rolled, reduce the damage suffered by 1. Focus and evade tokens msay be spent on this roll. Bomb damage is not considered to be from an attack.

Proton Bomb: damage value 3. If after rolling defense dice there is 1 or more uncanceled points of damage, an effected ship suffers 1 faceup damage card.

Ion bomb: damage value 4. If afgter rolling defense dice there is 1 or more uncancled damage, an effected ship suffers 1 danmage and 1 ion token.

Edit: sorry for spelling. Ffg website hates my tablet. Cant edit certsin text