Just now, RogueCommander said:

Ever tried to fly a LMC80 without Madine?

Yes I have, but only in 600+ games where it has more support ships.

15 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

No... to even remotely accurate comparison... first of you need to actually have three A-Wings to command who also cost 11p per squadron and who can be stopped by opposing squadrons and fired upon by ship AA etc...

FYI: When ever did AA stop A-wings from attacking a ship on longrange

Besides with the Sqd meta you still get more utility value from SQD dial than CF dial. lets examine

CR90, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 1 blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

CR90, Sqd dial or token against one or more enemy squads= 1 blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 2x blue against one enemy sqd.

Neb Escort, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

Neb Escort, Sqd dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 2x2 blue against one or two enemy sqds.

MC80 AC, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

MC80 AC, Sqd dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 3x2 blue against one or more enemy sqds.

So the number of blue dice you can dish out in one single Command dial Activation stays the same regardless of ship size when CF is used.

But when you use the Sqd Dial command the number of blue dice increse for a single command dial activation.

Its the abilty to bring more attack dice into play per single activation that makes Sqd dial so much better than CF dial.

42 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

So 9x red Ackbar dies is worse than 7x Red Ackbar dice + 3x black A-wing dice.

Defiance

Why link it to command value rather than dice pools.

1 extra dice for every 3 dice in an armament. So ISD front Arcs, MC80 Home One side arcs and MC80 Liberty front arcs get a bonus CF dice.

No CF with weak arcs.

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

FYI: When ever did AA stop A-wings from attacking a ship on longrange

Besides with the Sqd meta you still get more utility value from SQD dial than CF dial. lets examine

CR90, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 1 blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

CR90, Sqd dial or token against one or more enemy squads= 1 blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 2x blue against one enemy sqd.

Neb Escort, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

Neb Escort, Sqd dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 2x2 blue against one or two enemy sqds.

MC80 AC, CF dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + 1 blue against one enemy sqd.

VS

MC80 AC, Sqd dial against one or more enemy squads= 2x blue die per enemy sqd + atleast 3x2 blue against one or more enemy sqds.

So the number of blue dice you can dish out in one single Command dial Activation stays the same regardless of ship size when CF is used.

But when you use the Sqd Dial command the number of blue dice increse for a single command dial activation.

Its the abilty to bring more attack dice into play per single activation that makes Sqd dial so much better than CF dial.

You still completely disregard that squadrons cost points and are not going to be in ideal positions all the time and can be stopped by enemy fighters and withered down by ship AA (together with opposing squadrons).

If someone are not defending themselves with squadrons properly that is their problem.

9 minutes ago, RogueCommander said:

Ever tried to fly a LMC80 without Madine?

I prefer to fly Ackbar TRC CR90's with a six turn Navigate spam, being able to curl around friendly and enemy ships alike, with a Nav dial, is a delight

Perspective is quite important here. Notice that @Caldias sees the CF command as valuable. His perspective is driven by playing a lot of MC30s.

Some ships value the CF command highly just as carrier ships value squad dial above all else. Is this a game flaw? Not really imo.

2 hours ago, Darthain said:

I do agree that conc fire is the weakest command (I mean who doesn't),

I don't agree at all. I think engineering is the weakest command.

I use Concentrate fire 95% of the time. It's pretty much the best command there is.

2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

You still completely disregard that squadrons cost points and are not going to be in ideal positions all the time and can be stopped by enemy fighters and withered down by ship AA (together with opposing squadrons).

If someone are not defending themselves with squadrons properly that is their problem.

And stopping those fighters from going on rampage in the ship phase with fighters, needs a....???? Guess what....Sqd dial/token command. Making the CF once again lose out to the Command dial with more utility

1 minute ago, Crabbok said:

I don't agree at all. I think engineering is the weakest command.

I use Concentrate fire 95% of the time. It's pretty much the best command there is.

And on the subject of perspective. Crabbok has been running Arquittens recently, a ship where the CF command is dynamite.

The Arquitten has such bad manuevers, engineering and squadron that really CF is amazing on this ship.

I do see what the OP is saying with regards to larger ships gaining less....

However, that's not a problem with the command, it's a problem with Large Ships simply not being good enough. They are too expensive and only give you a single activation, single deployment, and seldom do they throw more dice at long range than an Arquitens or Nebulon.

Perhaps - a Large Ship Only modification that lets Concentrate Fire add 3 total dice instead of just 1. That would be boss.

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

And stopping those fighters from going on rampage in the ship phase with fighters, needs a....???? Guess what....Sqd dial/token command. Making the CF once again lose out to the Command dial with more utility

Only of you use the ship as a carrier, but that is then the PRIMARY use of that particular ship... not going to be the case with every ship in your fleet unless all ships in your fleet is a carrier.

CF command in a free die, squadrons are never a free die.

2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

Only of you use the ship as a carrier, but that is then the PRIMARY use of that particular ship... not going to be the case with every ship in your fleet unless all ships in your fleet is a carrier.

CF command in a free die, squadrons are never a free die.

And when a ship has no sqds to boss around, I prefer Nav command (all ship) or Repair (Medium or Large ship)

Just now, Crabbok said:

I do see what the OP is saying with regards to larger ships gaining less....

However, that's not a problem with the command, it's a problem with Large Ships simply not being good enough. They are too expensive and only give you a single activation, single deployment, and seldom do they throw more dice at long range than an Arquitens or Nebulon.

Perhaps - a Large Ship Only modification that lets Concentrate Fire add 3 total dice instead of just 1. That would be boss.

I agree that there is a power creep by smaller ship being too effective for the points they cost. This is based on activation and maneuver advantage of smaller ships... especially at 400p.

When you get to 600+ battles then larger ships get better since they are now much easier to support and harder to flank by smaller ships and numbers are only important to a certain degree before they become more of a problem than an asset.

I think that the game are good as is for now but that it is activation advantage that is the major problem. Increasing CF dice will diminish the power of the evade tokens too much.

In my opinion most of the small ships have a bit too many offensive dice to begin with.

I would rather lower the possible dice on smaller ships that raising it on the bigger ships in general. Power creep is NOT the answer here because it upset too much of the overall balance.

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

And when a ship has no sqds to boss around, I prefer Nav command (all ship) or Repair (Medium or Large ship)

Which I have no problem with... CF are still useful to bigger ships once in a while.

15 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

And on the subject of perspective. Crabbok has been running Arquittens recently, a ship where the CF command is dynamite.

The Arquitten has such bad manuevers, engineering and squadron that really CF is amazing on this ship.

Agreed, the arq loves CF. But a JJ ISD loves repairs and navs more IMO

The biggest issue with power creep and large ships being behind... at least for me right now.... is the fact that Disposable Capacitors was made to be Small / Medium ship only.

I'me crying over here.... because DUDE..... DUDE (that's a 2-syllable Dude. Sounds like DOO -DUH) - that would have made me play ISDs all day long.

But now feels like a Vic2 could end up becoming the best ship in the game. (Big maybe here....)

Maybe they've got something special planned for large ships.

Weather the CF dial is a free dice or not , it does not alter the fact that Sqd dial has the ability to heavily outway the firepower from a CF dial command activation, in a single activation with the use of bombers and Intel.

(Sqd Dial) Yavaris could theoretically bring up to 18 attack dice to the table in a single activation (In practice its more around 10 dice)

(CF dial) Salvation in contrast could bring no more than 7 attack dice to the table in a single activation (In practice its more around 5 dice)

If most (if not all) small ships had one red die in each facing swapped with a blue (same point cost) I think most of the activation problems would be gone. Still powerful but more manageable. There simply are not enough difference in power between big and small ships.

Better than fixing the CF command in my opinion.

But that would be a huge change I never think they would do, at least not until a second edition.

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

Weather the CF dial is a free dice or not , it does not alter the fact that Sqd dial has the ability to heavily outway the firepower from a CF dial command activation, in a single activation with the use of bombers and Intel.

(Sqd Dial) Yavaris could theoretically bring up to 18 attack dice to the table in a single activation (In practice its more around 10 dice)

(CF dial) Salvation in contrast could bring no more than 7 attack dice to the table in a single activation (In practice its more around 5 dice)

All of these things you pay for in points (not talking a few points either), the CF die cost you ZERO extra points to capitalize on, big difference.

2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

All of these things you pay for in points (not talking a few points either), the CF die cost you ZERO points to capitalize on, big difference.

Okay we can go in circles about this all night long.

You are right that you get extra firepower cost free with a CF dial.

However you can deal much more damage out, under the right circumstances, with a Sqd Dial, during a single activation, albeit at a higher point cost.

So lets agree to partly disagree

7 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Okay we can go in circles about this all night long.

You are right that you get extra firepower cost free with a CF dial.

However you can deal much more damage out, under the right circumstances, with a Sqd Dial, during a single activation, albeit at a higher point cost.

So lets agree to partly disagree

Yes... I think we agree on a few points... I just don't think that power creep is the right way to tackle what is essentially a small ship activation and power question. It will need to be tackled in a different way.

In general I have no problem with the fact that some command are better in the hands of some ships than others, that is part of tactics and strategy when you play. Activation advantage and offensive power of many medium powerful attacks is the issue. More attacks means defense tokens are less useful while more useful on small ships since you gain more per points invested.

You get more damage with a CF than squad dial with an MC30 Glad Hammerhead or Raider. Significantly more in some cases.

I agree CF could be improved. A bit.

How about a nice new Upgrade to do that and keep it simple? For example:

Officer: Admiral Piett

While attacking squadrons from a hull zone you may discard this card to use a CF command (dial / token) on all attacks.

Costs: Maybe 3 or 4 points?

(When using this card you have to shout "Intensify forward firepower" as loud as you can)

And here I thought this was a post to clarify the concentrate fire rules...Ie, you cannot spend a dial on your first attack, and then the token on your second.

I would have to agree with the dissenters (poor word choice), I don't think con fire is underpowered. A well timed concentrate fire can mean the difference between life or death of a ship, along with a well timed Nav or engineering.

Along the lines of something more creative (see Crabboks video on errata), a counterpart to disposable capacitors for large ships only would be more creative and interesting:
When you resolve the [con fire] command, you may add one die already in your dice pool. Large base only.

That would mean your con fire token could also add a die, etc...

2 hours ago, Crabbok said:

The biggest issue with power creep and large ships being behind... at least for me right now.... is the fact that Disposable Capacitors was made to be Small / Medium ship only.

I'me crying over here.... because DUDE..... DUDE (that's a 2-syllable Dude. Sounds like DOO -DUH) - that would have made me play ISDs all day long.

But now feels like a Vic2 could end up becoming the best ship in the game. (Big maybe here....)

Maybe they've got something special planned for large ships.

Answering your questions about why they made it a small-medium ship upgrade, it's because I've spent the last year continuously demonstrating how lethal an ability it is to a lot of people who turned out to be playtesters.

That said, something from the new ships is definitely about to make ISDs start hitting tables like rain.