4 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

•Togashi Kazue, as an attachment, is way too expensive and, as a personality, is kind of underwhelming.

If you have a 4 or 5 cost Character, or Character with equivalent cost in attachments, in play with no Fate who is getting discarded at the end of turn then Togashi Kazue as an attachment is cost effective. That is also ignoring the impact on your opponents character.

14 minutes ago, Bazleebub said:

If you have a 4 or 5 cost Character, or Character with equivalent cost in attachments, in play with no Fate who is getting discarded at the end of turn then Togashi Kazue as an attachment is cost effective. That is also ignoring the impact on your opponents character.

Have you been able to play Kazue yet? I haven't seen it happen in the few games I've watched and played in the last couple days.

I don't want to discount that her ability is good, stealing Fate is certainly great, it just seems like there might be better opportunities for that 3 Fate during the game.

Kazue is probably more situational - how much fate is your opponent putting on their people? Is there someone you want to get rid of a turn early? The games don't seem to go very long, so you can't think "3 turns and she pays for herself" and she doesn't kill a character without fate. She almost feels like a trap, in that she makes you consider the long game when Lion wants to end it turn 3 lol

37 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Kazue is probably more situational - how much fate is your opponent putting on their people? Is there someone you want to get rid of a turn early? The games don't seem to go very long, so you can't think "3 turns and she pays for herself" and she doesn't kill a character without fate. She almost feels like a trap, in that she makes you consider the long game when Lion wants to end it turn 3 lol

She pays for herself in two turns rather than three because she creates a 2 fate swing. Other than that I agree, I don't think you will often go for her over 2 or 3 combat tricks you can potentially play for her cost so she is definitely situational.

7 hours ago, shosuko said:

Also - what about Yokuni / Way of the Dragon?

I was over-thinking things, assuming that because Way of the Dragon does not overcome the printed limitation on Yokuni, that it also wouldn't allow an additional use of whatever event was copied. That's my bad.

What I should have said was that Way of the Dragon is (significantly?) less desirable since it cannot overcome printed play restrictions, such as on Yokuni or Kitsuki Investigator.

5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

More importantly this looks like a clan that can make good use of Wandering Ronin.

I disagree. Wandering Ronin is very expensive and forces you to invest prematurely. You can get similar results to his "spend fate to gain skill" ability by attaching your ancestral attachments to lower cost personalities.

You can pay 5 Fate upfront for Wandering Ronin and turn him into a 7/7 for a Conflict by deciding to spend that 2 fate on him.

You could also pay 3 Fate for Mirumoto Prodigy who starts at 3/2 Mil, with useful ability, and then leave some Fate unspent to attach Attachments as needed during the conflict in response to rising needs. For a cost of 5 Fate you have spent on Wandering Ronin, you could have had a Mirumoto Prodigy with useful ability (one defender) and 2 conflict-appropriate ancestral attachments that will turn her into 7/2 and will go back to your hand with the end of the turn.

You can do the same for Niten Adept and other cheap personalities. Or you can psych out your opponent and spend your Fate on other things - your opponent still has to calculate in the possibility that your solo Niten Adept might suddenly grow by +4 because you left 2 Fate unspent when assigning defenders, but you are free to troll them and not play anything during the actual conflict in order make them overcommit and gain Fate advantage for the next turn.

Dragon has potential to turn anyone into a Wandering Ronin without his drawbacks. Seppun Guardsmen is better Wandering Ronin than Wandering Ronin when played out of Dragon.

I guess you could use Wandering Ronin as a potential defender, I guess?

@WHW While I agree with that Wandering Ronin certainly won't be a staple card in any deck it seems to me that he has two redeeming qualities that you might have not recognized.

1. Stat efficiency combined with flexibility.

You could treat buying Wandering Ronin the same as if you would treat a champion - the former can be bought for 3 or 4 fate only which already makes him more applicable in some situations.

The most interesting case is the one where you buy him for 5 fate. While he doesn't get powerful ability every champion gets he potentially has the highest base stats in the game - 6/6 and with 0 glory he doesn't care about the "first challenge fire ring" play from opponents as some champions do. The potential of having 6 strength in any type of conflict is pretty scary and can be used to break provinces, however you can also go for 1 bump and still break or no bumps at all(if you are really lucky) - letting you save the body for another turn.

2. Card efficiency

The example you gave with Mirumoto prodigy and equipping her has its merits - you get abilities going with that. However there is a value to be had from the cards that can provide the similar albeit slightly less strength as multiple combined. So while you can get your Mirumoto Prodigy to 5/4 stats or even better for the same cost you need to spend multiple cards on achieving that goal, Wandering ronin does all of this in 1 card giving you more space in your hand for other effects.

In general I don't think Dragon will use ronin a lot but I can see a potential for him sometime somewhere maybe

@WHW my apologies I should have been more specific.

In regards to Wandering Ronin, I was getting at Dragon's ability to steal fate and keep WR loaded up so you can continue to use his ability as well as being able to protect him from harmful attachments like Pacifism and Cloud the Mind. I'm not suggesting you just throw all your eggs into one basket with WR, only that so far Dragon seems well suited to leverage his strengths. If Dragon is going to pull off "voltron" style decks then I think WR is character worth considering.

BordOne brings up other good points that I have also mentioned in some of the previous discussions about WR but in this instance I was speaking more to the synergy of Dragon's ability to steal fate and WR ability to use that extra gate for something other than staying alive for another round.

11 hours ago, Danwarr said:

Have you been able to play Kazue yet? I haven't seen it happen in the few games I've watched and played in the last couple days.

Not once. So far it's all theory.

IDK if FFG does this in other games, but I know in Star Wars LCG there is a very clear distinction between "limit 1" and "limit once". "Limit 1" means you only get one use of that ability period. Duplicating the effect does nothing. "Limit once" is a limitation of the card itself. So if I have 3 guys on the table with identical "limit once" abilities I can trigger each of those abilities once. So duplication is actually relevant.

Presuming that FFG keeps a similar distinction with numerals vs words, I would expect Niten Master to be able to trigger 3 times a turn(potentially) with Way of the Dragon. Whereas Kitsuki Investigator's ability can only be used once a conflict regardless if you have two of them on the table, or have Yokuni, or have Way of the Dragon to duplicate the effect.

2 hours ago, kiramode said:

IDK if FFG does this in other games, but I know in Star Wars LCG there is a very clear distinction between "limit 1" and "limit once". "Limit 1" means you only get one use of that ability period. Duplicating the effect does nothing. "Limit once" is a limitation of the card itself. So if I have 3 guys on the table with identical "limit once" abilities I can trigger each of those abilities once. So duplication is actually relevant.

Presuming that FFG keeps a similar distinction with numerals vs words, I would expect Niten Master to be able to trigger 3 times a turn(potentially) with Way of the Dragon. Whereas Kitsuki Investigator's ability can only be used once a conflict regardless if you have two of them on the table, or have Yokuni, or have Way of the Dragon to duplicate the effect.

Thank you for pointing that out - I expect you are correct. If you notice both Yokuni and Kitsuki Investigator have that wording "Max 1 per round" and "Max 1 per conflict" compared to the other wording on Niten Master "Limit twice per round." So the "Max 1" is an absolute limit of possible uses regardless of the amount of sources. 2 Kitsuki Investigators can't be used in the same conflict, and Yokuni can't copy their ability to provide an extra use as it is an absolute cap, not a card limitation - where NM has a card limitation. This ability can activate only twice in a round.

WotD expands the "limit" of an ability use but can't bypass the "Max" restriction. This would be why Yokuni gets only 1 use from his copy ability with WotD, because it is Max once per round even though WotD would give him an extra use. The copied ability may not have this Max, so it gets the limit increase. This wouldn't bypass the Max if applicable, such as copying Kitsuki Investigator.

Thank you for sharing the knowledge!

Going over the Dragon cards again, something struck me. The Dragon:

A) Are more reliant on conflict deck cards than the Crane or Lion, because of the need for attachments.

B) Have no card drawing engine, so will have to do it by paying honour.

C) Also have no honour gain cards, so will end up losing honour fairly quickly.

D) Will therefore be extremely vulnerable to dishonour decks.

6 hours ago, kiramode said:

IDK if FFG does this in other games, but I know in Star Wars LCG there is a very clear distinction between "limit 1" and "limit once". "Limit 1" means you only get one use of that ability period. Duplicating the effect does nothing. "Limit once" is a limitation of the card itself. So if I have 3 guys on the table with identical "limit once" abilities I can trigger each of those abilities once. So duplication is actually relevant.

Presuming that FFG keeps a similar distinction with numerals vs words, I would expect Niten Master to be able to trigger 3 times a turn(potentially) with Way of the Dragon. Whereas Kitsuki Investigator's ability can only be used once a conflict regardless if you have two of them on the table, or have Yokuni, or have Way of the Dragon to duplicate the effect.

I would think that Kitsuki Investigator ability could be performed max once per round, for each copy in play. Usually this kind of text doesn't cascade to other copies, especially if they have the same printed text. If Yokuni can copy the text and way of the dragon let's you repeate, why would printed cards not be able to use their abilities? That sounds convoluted.

The Kitsuki investigator is very powerful, so happy to be wrong here. But I don't think FFG would make subsequent copies conform to the use of the first copy. That's awkward, and I don't recall that in other FFG games.

2 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Going over the Dragon cards again, something struck me. The Dragon:

A) Are more reliant on conflict deck cards than the Crane or Lion, because of the need for attachments.

B) Have no card drawing engine, so will have to do it by paying honour.

C) Also have no honour gain cards, so will end up losing honour fairly quickly.

D) Will therefore be extremely vulnerable to dishonour decks.

In playing Dragon I can say they have some crazy good conflict cards, but often times don't have the resources to get them all out there. You often find yourself with 10+ cards in hand while only being able to play 1 or 2. My main complaint with them is that they don't really have any incentive to bid low other than Good Omen. Your hand is already good to go but you keep drawing because there's no reason not to. Lion has a lot of cards that incentivize low bids and Crane has enough cheap cards that you'll actually use most of the stuff you draw into.

As for the draws, they have one of the best card engines in the Swordsmith. The guy fetches an attachment every turn(or at least attempts to).

We have yet to see what a dishonor deck looks like, but Dragon can operate on a small hand size better than you'd think.

2 minutes ago, Isawa Enns said:

I would think that Kitsuki Investigator ability could be performed max once per round, for each copy in play. Usually this kind of text doesn't cascade to other copies, especially if they have the same printed text. If Yokuni can copy the text and way of the dragon let's you repeate, why would printed cards not be able to use their abilities? That sounds convoluted.

The Kitsuki investigator is very powerful, so happy to be wrong here. But I don't think FFG would make subsequent copies conform to the use of the first copy. That's awkward, and I don't recall that in other FFG games.

Brad literally answered this question in the most recent FB Live video. Kitsuki Investigator's ability is limited to once per Conflict regardless of if you multiple copies in that Conflict. FFG felt like having multiple card destruction effects during a Conflict was too powerful.

6 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

Brad literally answered this question in the most recent FB Live video. Kitsuki Investigator's ability is limited to once per Conflict regardless of if you multiple copies in that Conflict. FFG felt like having multiple card destruction effects during a Conflict was too powerful.

Thanks, hadn't had a chance to watch it yet. At least if it's once per conflict you don't have all these wasted investigators each round. I'm sure it won't be hard to spread them out into multiple conflicts

Just now, Isawa Enns said:

Thanks, hadn't had a chance to watch it yet. At least if it's once per conflict you don't have all these wasted investigators each round. I'm sure it won't be hard to spread them out into multiple conflicts

The ability itself is limited to Political conflicts only and does cost 1 Fate so it's not like it's a free action. The Investigator himself is a little weak for a 3 Fate guy as well.

They answered it already but they kinda got it wrong, they said his ability says once per round, yet the card as you already noticed says Max 1 per conflict. I suppose you can use his ability total of one time each political conflict, even though they said they don't want it to be used repeteadly.

Hopefully the exact rules for "limit" and "max" and so on will explained in detail in the rulebook.

Got to play a game today where I was able to make use of Kazue as an attachment to move the last fate off of Hotaru to my bowed out (and zero fate) Yokuni, which set me up for a win the next turn. But it was only one game, so it still may turn out her ability is too situational to run her regularly in a competetive deck.

5 hours ago, Isawa Enns said:

I would think that Kitsuki Investigator ability could be performed max once per round, for each copy in play. Usually this kind of text doesn't cascade to other copies, especially if they have the same printed text. If Yokuni can copy the text and way of the dragon let's you repeate, why would printed cards not be able to use their abilities? That sounds convoluted.

The Kitsuki investigator is very powerful, so happy to be wrong here. But I don't think FFG would make subsequent copies conform to the use of the first copy. That's awkward, and I don't recall that in other FFG games.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

They answered it already but they kinda got it wrong, they said his ability says once per round, yet the card as you already noticed says Max 1 per conflict. I suppose you can use his ability total of one time each political conflict, even though they said they don't want it to be used repeteadly.

The limit of uses is once per conflict, but each ability per card is still once per round. If you have 2 Kitsuki Investigators at 1 conflict you cannot use them both. If you have 1 Kitsuki Investigator who goes to 2 conflicts, you cannot use him twice. At least, that is how I'm understanding the difference between "Limit 2 per round" and "Max 1 per conflict." The Limit is the number of times that printed ability can be activated, the Max is a separate capacity of that ability from any copy of that card.

Way of the Dragon increases the Limit of times an ability can be used +1 per round, but Max is not effected so the capacity is the same. If you put WotD on a Kitsuki Investigator he could still only use his ability once per conflict, but he could use it 2 times per round - so if he went to a second conflict he could use it again.

On 7/1/2017 at 1:30 AM, WHW said:

You could also pay 3 Fate for Mirumoto Prodigy who starts at 3/2 Mil, with useful ability,

Do we know if the Mirumoto Prodigy is 3/2 or 2/2? There seems to be two versions of the card out there.

@BordOne: I think Wandering Ronin works in the Crane in order to shore up their Military stats deficiency. A base 2 in Politics maintains their key focus as well.

11 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Going over the Dragon cards again, something struck me. The Dragon:

A) Are more reliant on conflict deck cards than the Crane or Lion, because of the need for attachments.

B) Have no card drawing engine, so will have to do it by paying honour.

C) Also have no honour gain cards, so will end up losing honour fairly quickly.

D) Will therefore be extremely vulnerable to dishonour decks.

Agasha Swordsmith is a rather solid 'card drawing engine'.

Also, there's a neutral holding that you destroy as a cost to draw a card. It seems to work well for Dragon.

6 hours ago, Anemura said:

Do we know if the Mirumoto Prodigy is 3/2 or 2/2? There seems to be two versions of the card out there.

@BordOne: I think Wandering Ronin works in the Crane in order to shore up their Military stats deficiency. A base 2 in Politics maintains their key focus as well.

Hm it might be true, I will try playing around with him.

On 01/07/2017 at 6:10 AM, Danwarr said:

Have you been able to play Kazue yet? I haven't seen it happen in the few games I've watched and played in the last couple days.

I don't want to discount that her ability is good, stealing Fate is certainly great, it just seems like there might be better opportunities for that 3 Fate during the game.

Like several Dragon cards I think that Kazue, seen in isolation, looks expensive.

But I think she starts to become impactful when you consider the other fate manipulation cards (secluded temple is an obvious one) available to the Dragon Clan.

Removing Fate forces your opponent to change their plan, or strategy: even just the threat of Kazue means your opponent has to adjust their game in response.

On 6/30/2017 at 5:39 PM, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

•Togashi Kazue, as an attachment, is way too expensive and, as a personality, is kind of underwhelming.

Thoughts?

I fully agree here. Just going by the card itself, it just doesn't make sense to include her as a lone personality ('on foot' as other posters have stated in another thread) and to get her full effect a player is very much forced to attach her to another personality. This, imo, severely cuts back on her ability; something I haven't seen on any other released card. (though I can certainly be wrong)