33 minutes ago, kiramode said:

This guy is the only guy that scares me when I think about the Lion vs Dragon matchup. If that guy hits the table with money it can get ugly fast. Way of the Crane lets him trigger twice. Could be a sad sad day for the little simbas.

I'm assuming this was supposed to read Way of the Dragon. Or else you're a dirty rotten cheater.

3 hours ago, psychie said:

Also, considering that the text for the ancestral keyword uses the phrase "attached card" in the first clause, and the phrase "this card" in the other clause, it would be not only redundant and unnecessarily clunky if they were both referring to the same card, but also grammatically weird, as they use the article "the" in "THE attached card," whereas if they used that phrase for the purposes of future proofing or whatever they should have used the pronoun "this," as in "THIS attached card," if they really wanted to be clear about only working when the attachment is attached to something, as opposed to the very strange, and as of yet unused, design space of having attachments attached to nothing, as even in the holding example (admittedly not out of the realm of possibility, and potentially a really cool and useful card), the attachment would still be attaching to a card, just not in the usual way. All in all, I don't think the wording is in any way ambiguous, people who are insisting otherwise are trying to justify a rather broken play that results from a misunderstanding of the keyword when not looking directly at the exact wording of the rule.

As a dragon player, I agree that it would be really cool and useful to be able to do stuff like that, and I can imagine a much less broken version involving an event that allows directly bouncing your own attachments back to your own hand, but it would be way too powerful to have an entire subset of attachments be immune to attachment destruction entirely, as let go is highly unlikely to remain the only means of doing so for long, even if it is the only means of doing so in the core set. If this misreading of the relevant text was indeed correct, then if someone really wanted to get rid of my ancestral daisho or my kitsuki method, they would first need to break it, thus bouncing it back to my hand, and then they would need to discard it from my hand, of which there are currently rather limited means of doing so, most of which are randomized, so unless it was the only card in my hand or they have kitsuki investigator (who I think is the only currently revealed discard ability that lets you look at your opponent's hand and pick any one you like to discard, all others, to my memory, are either randomized or target's choice), they are unlikely to really get rid of it.

It's not really broken since its going to cost you a specific card, two actions, and fate to use. We have a Unicorn card, Border Rider for 2, that has an ready action on it.

As for the confusion surrounding it the card, people should look at the text about the two Ancestral attachments in the article. While similar to Fine Katana, "they also contain the "Ancestral" keyword, allowing them to return to your hand even when the character they are attached to leaves play." The whole attached portion of their ability is referring to the personality they are attached to.

After much contemplation, I don't wish to post a reply that is critical to the Dragon. I typed up a reply that went point by point covering every card released, with the intention of making a 'complete' response from a former Dragon player, with the intent of juxtaposing with the current (LCG) release. When I re-read it, it came off as too much opinion and not much substance regarding interactions with other Clans, so I'd rather just wait until all Clans are released before coming back to this topic.

Anyways, about 6 weeks left before we get the Core release.

EDIT

35 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

After much contemplation, I don't wish to post a reply that is critical to the Dragon. The point will be list among the many facets of the Clan and its cards.

Rather, I'll wait till all of the Clans are represented before I post my opinion on thee matters.

You feel they are weak or just want to go over every card?

If it's the former, at least they have the best champion in the game for now xD

I really wonder how good phoenix clan leader ability must be for her to be a 4/4

5, 4/4, 2 Glory

Action: Play this card from the discard pile and remove it from the game at end of the turn.

15 minutes ago, WHW said:

5, 4/4, 2 Glory

Action: Play this card from the discard pile and remove it from the game at end of the turn.

Hmm that is cool but maybe a bit more conditional like:

Action: If you control fire ring play this card from the discard pile.

This way she can do it every turn but wouldn't be so oppresive. Might be too weak though compared to Youkuni.

Wow being game designer is fun xd

48 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I really wonder how good phoenix clan leader ability must be for her to be a 4/4

@WHW's post was probably pretty close to the mark; I assume Tsukune's ability will be flavorful but ultimately clearly not as good as the abilities on the other champs.

But I would be glad for FFG to prove me wrong!

1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

After much contemplation, I don't wish to post a reply that is critical to the Dragon. The point will be list among the many facets of the Clan and its cards.

I on the other hand have no such restraint.

Full Dragon card review below.

http://imperialadvisor.com/wp/2017/06/30/clan-focus-the-dragon/

TLDR version - I love em all!

3 minutes ago, Bazleebub said:

I on the other hand have no such restraint.

Full Dragon card review below.

http://imperialadvisor.com/wp/2017/06/30/clan-focus-the-dragon/

TLDR version - I love em all!

I just read your thoughts and I understand them. Great post.

However, my initial thoughts are much more critical of several cards (Niten Master, Let Go, and others) that will be in the Core, without any consideration as to how viable these cards will be when the other Clans are released. (specifically, which other Clan's cards I can buy with Influence)

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

You feel they are weak or just want to go over every card?

If it's the former, at least they have the best champion in the game for now xD

Not weak in the sense of playability, but not properly costed, beyond difficult to pump up (attachment reliant, not simply "the Attachment Clan!"), and a player is heavily dependent on other Clans' cards (purchased through Influence) compared to Lion and Crane. This is a severe DISadvantage, imo. But enough of this Debbie Downer mentality; I'll look forward to the other Clans and see what I can splash into Dragon to make them workable.

17 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Not weak in the sense of playability, but not properly costed, beyond difficult to pump up (attachment reliant, not simply "the Attachment Clan!"), and a player is heavily dependent on other Clans' cards (purchased through Influence) compared to Lion and Crane. This is a severe DISadvantage, imo. But enough of this Debbie Downer mentality; I'll look forward to the other Clans and see what I can splash into Dragon to make them workable.

Hmm I wouldn't worry so much :> I feel that they will need to focus much more on the tactics rather than overall strategy, changing their play a lot depending on what they flipped and mulliganing accordingly. I think they will be really challenging but also rewarding clan to play since you should be thinking all the time what is the best way to play, what are percentages instead of going "oh it is my political, ok I auto win" or "well its military attack so my opponent might as well surrender".

Are they really so heavily influence reliant? I feel they might have the best conflict deck out of the clans revealed thus far. Do you feel they don't have enough attachments?

I'm also sad because they look much more intersting than Lion :<

I am pleasantly surprised by the Dragon previews.

I say that partly because based on my experience of other games i really dislike big one-man-band super-voltron units. They tend to be feeble against control-heavy decks but ridiculously overpowered against decks that can't access control options (admittedly this is coming from a bitter ex-Tyranid player). But I'm pleased to see that much of the attachment synergy for Dragon appears to be more considered than purely brute-strength-boosting.

Its definitely my favourite of the 3 previewed clans so far, and here are just a few more reasons:

1. The artwork on the Clan Champion card looks amazing (even better than Hotaru, who's already set the bar pretty high).

2. As someone who tends to adopt the middle-ground in many aspects of life, I particularly appreciate the fine balance that Dragon has between Miltary and Political.

3. I like the 'patience' philosophy of the Dragon. I'd much prefer a game that lasts 6 turns to one that is over in 3.

4. I really like the Fate-manipulation theme, and am curious as to how that will pan out.

5.That Investigator card is one of the best I've seen so far, from a design & gameplay point of view: The ability to view your opponent's hand and discard a card of your choice is very powerful.

On this basis, i reckon we are in for a treat when they preview Phoenix and Scorpion....

20 minutes ago, Caldera said:

3. I like the 'patience' philosophy of the Dragon. I'd much prefer a game that lasts 6 turns to one that is over in 3.

Though I have my doubts on their ability to stop the wave, I agree on your preference.

I agree also that I never saw a FFG game with such a care for attachments, but we should not forget also that in this game characters are going to be disappearing by default. This makes the attachment game more inconsistent. Specially if Dragon clan focus on longer games, as we would both like...

So, after some more looking at things, I think the thing to be mindful of is what you are paying for and what you are getting. The Fate/Ring mechanic allows for additional fate generation which will be necessary for Dragon. Generally, they shouldn't need tremendous card draw every turn, unlike most control because they have enough ways to draw cards without spending honor to do so by spending fate instead. The easiest ring (depending on deck construction) to abuse from a fate perspective appears to be fire. If you learn when to use which type of fate manipulation properly you should have enough resource generation to progress at a steady pace. You honor should at least be stable as well allowing you to maintain the ability for honor victory albeit later than Crane. You basically have to learn when to use your abilities. Example: Kitsuki Investigator should be used in defense first. That way you can recover the cost of the fate ability claiming it in your next attack. You can use it in attack but to recoup the cost you have to play other cards that give you the fate back making the ability effectively free.

So after the Facebook Dragon Q&A, I'm left with a few impressions:

•Niten Master is in a slightly better position, since you can activate him even when he's already full-up on weapons by attaching and discarding.
•The comments on Yokuni/Way of the Dragon are directly in contention with the text of the Monks of the Mountain preview write-up.
•Togashi Kazue, as an attachment, is way too expensive and, as a personality, is kind of underwhelming.

Thoughts?

23 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

So after the Facebook Dragon Q&A, I'm left with a few impressions:

•Niten Master is in a slightly better position, since you can activate him even when he's already full-up on weapons by attaching and discarding.
•The comments on Yokuni/Way of the Dragon are directly in contention with the text of the Monks of the Mountain preview write-up.
•Togashi Kazue, as an attachment, is way too expensive and, as a personality, is kind of underwhelming.

Thoughts?

I didn't catch the Q&A, is there a link? Also - what about Yokuni / Way of the Dragon?

I hope that attachment personalities don't need Fate to stick along. They would be even worse if they did.

I'm also not sure if the proper way to Voltron up is to make long term investments. Honestly, I kinda feel that your Fate is better spent using using your reausable attachments on small one shot guys to make explosive conflict plays. Kitsuki Method and Ancestral Daisho each respectively are like ability to increase the cost of your guy by 1 to add +2 of the respective skill, which might be why Dragon personalities tend to be little weak on the stats - cost deal.

I'm probably going to flood the deck with cheapest characters available, probably including both imperial neutrals. Basically, I feel that it's less of attaching attachments to characters, and more of attaching characters to attachments.

Though great thing about Dragon is that you are very flexible. If you start your game with a hand full of ancestral stuff, go YOLO and play explosive no fate personalities. Get Mirumoto's Fury in, you can invest into someone bigger because you probably can flat out negate an attack at your province, or at least stop it from breaking without even assigning a defender.

Or you could draw something dumb like Indomitable Will, Ancestral stuff and a Doomed Shugenja, and then possibly break two provinces with one character on turn 1.

"What is a play?"

"What is is not a play?"

It's like they are combo reliant, but there are so many combo possibilities that it's up to you to find a solution to the problem on the board using your hand and dynasty flips.

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I didn't catch the Q&A, is there a link? Also - what about Yokuni / Way of the Dragon?

It's archivized on their facebook page. Yokuni was mentioned to specifically be worded the way he is so you can't do an infinite loop of two Yokunis freezing the game by one of them deciding that it's time to use a copy ability to copy a copy ability so you can copy a copy ability which you can use to copy a copy ability.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

It's archivized on their facebook page. Yokuni was mentioned to specifically be worded the way he is so you can't do an infinite loop of two Yokunis freezing the game by one of them deciding that it's time to use a copy ability to copy a copy ability so you can copy a copy ability which you can use to copy a copy ability.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to what he said about Yokuni and Way of the Dragon. Any clarification? I'm at work and can't read that at the moment.

Also for your post above ^

I agree - I think the Dragon are not looking to invest heavily in a single Niten Master to stay out. I think you'll buy him with 0 extra fate, and use him with 2 weapons to participate as heavily as possible, and then let him go and take any ancestral attachments back. That, in combination with the Doomed Shugenja, I think they have options for short explosive plays, similar to the Lion.

There was a question about Yokuni and Brad started explaining why his ability is maximum once per round and how it works and then transitioned into an anecdote about two Yokunis being able to infinitely loop with the 1nce per round limitation being able to be circumvented by Way of the Dragon. It was...a thing. Can't precisely recall everything.

As for Niten Master, I don't think he is that good with ancestral weapons. He is my prime target for Fine Katana and Honored Blade if I decide to run it, though. Fine Katana is great with him because it becomes a 0 fate unbow +2 mil skill, kinda making up for his cost of 4. I would rather put him out with 1 Fate token, unbow him with Fine Katana this turn, and then drop the Daisho on him next turn to unbow him again.

Overall I feel that dropping Ancestral attachments on people you want to invest Fate on is counterproductive. Dropping them on people who are going to be gone, on the other hand, is like having an access to slightly weaker Banzai every turn.

If I was going to invest Fate on anything currently, it would be probably personalities I intend to defend with, while covering the attacking duties with cheap well buffed one shot people. Which is also why I'm going to stick with Guidance of the Ancestors - 9 reusable attachments mean I should be able to always get ability to pump someone by at least +4 using combination of reusable attachments and Dragon stronghold.

I honestly read Yokuni's ability in the way that ability goes away once copied, so Way of the dragon won't do that ability again, just the copied ability.

And the yokuni loop sounds insane, but near impossible.

The Yokuni example is what Brad used to illustrate why they made abilities once per turn. If two Yokuni were in play they could copy each other infinitely which wouldn't necessarily do anything but they wanted to make sure that didn't allow any infinite combos to screw with the game.

More importantly this looks like a clan that can make good use of Wandering Ronin.

I think the Yokuni thing sounds more like a "this is mechanics, but it means nothing in game." Where they explaining why they put "Max 1 per round" on the card when abilities are typically max 1 per round anyway?

What is their use of WotD on Yokuni? Do they double his ability to copy, so he can copy 2 different abilities? Or do they double the ability he copies?

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

I think the Yokuni thing sounds more like a "this is mechanics, but it means nothing in game." Where they explaining why they put "Max 1 per round" on the card when abilities are typically max 1 per round anyway?

What is their use of WotD on Yokuni? Do they double his ability to copy, so he can copy 2 different abilities? Or do they double the ability he copies?

Brad answered this in today's live stream. The max 1 per round is to prevent Yokuni from copying another Yokuni's ability. Additionally, Way of the Dragon doesn't allow him to trigger his ability twice, only the copied ability.

Example: Yokuni has WotD and steals Lion's Pride Brawler's ability. Yokuni can now trigger two bow actions while attacking.

17 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

Brad answered this in today's live stream. The max 1 per round is to prevent Yokuni from copying another Yokuni's ability. Additionally, Way of the Dragon doesn't allow him to trigger his ability twice, only the copied ability.

Example: Yokuni has WotD and steals Lion's Pride Brawler's ability. Yokuni can now trigger two bow actions while attacking.

Alright, that is what I thought from the ability and the "Max once per round" tag. Thanks for clarifying that for me