2 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You still have to be able to get him back into battle somehow, unless I missed the part where FFG said we could assign bowed personalities to conflicts.

Bowing a character does not remove him from the conflict. He simply does not contribute his stats to the conflict.

18 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You still have to be able to get him back into battle somehow, unless I missed the part where FFG said we could assign bowed personalities to conflicts.

With no previous Weapon attachments:

Conflict 1 resolves, returns bowed.

Attach a weapon, straightens, goes to Conflict 2.

Conflict 2 resolves, returns bowed.

Attach a second weapon, straightens, goes to Conflict 3.

10 minutes ago, blackheartz said:

Bowing a character does not remove him from the conflict. He simply does not contribute his stats to the conflict.

I never said it did. I'm speaking to the concept of him "easily" participating I'm multiple conflicts, which others have suggested. I understand how bowed characters work in conflicts. Characters do however bow after conflict resolution. So he is going to have to be kept ready with something like Indomitable Will, or find a way to unbow before the next conflict because bowed characters cannot be assigned to conflicts last time I checked. Outside of that you could use his printed ability to unbow, outside of combat, and then use a card that moves him in.

The point is that the options available to get this guy into mutiple conflicts are finite and situational. Some people are making it sound like it's a given this guy will be at every battle....which is simply not true

18 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You still have to be able to get him back into battle somehow, unless I missed the part where FFG said we could assign bowed personalities to conflicts.

Don't get me wrong, he's a stat stick and with cards like Indomitable Will, he shouldn't be overlooked by anyone. But he is still a pure stats character and generally having more printed abilities that can do stuff have a bigger impact on the game.

Readying up to twice per turn ain't nothing bit it's likely going to cost extra fate to do it and that could end up crippling your board state when you run out of ways to keep him unbowed from conflict resolution or move him into conflicts of deal with dishonor and other force reduction effects which I'm sure we'll see.

I'm not totally familiar with the rules, but when can you play attachments to straighten him? Can you play attachments after 1 battle resolves, and before another starts?

With ancestral daisho and fine katana the Dragon would likely have a way to play an attachment to him to ready him, and with ancestral daisho it could come back to hand after that niten master leaves play, and then you can bring in another niten master and do the whole thing again.

3 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

With no previous Weapon attachments:

Conflict 1 resolves, returns bowed.

Attach a weapon, straightens, goes to Conflict 2.

Conflict 2 resolves, returns bowed.

Attach a second weapon, straightens, goes to Conflict 3.

Where was this sort of interaction mentioned by FFG? As I understand it, players get the option to play a conflict card after the honor bids but before the conflict phase begins, and then only during conflicts, not between every conflict.

3 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Where was this sort of interaction mentioned by FFG? As I understand it, players get the option to play a conflict card after the honor bids but before the conflict phase begins, and then only during conflicts, not between every conflict.

I think they mentioned the existence of action windows between conflicts in one of the livestreams.

As well, it's standard practice in their other games so I can't imagine FFG not including them.

5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I never said it did. I'm speaking to the concept of him "easily" participating I'm multiple conflicts, which others have suggested. I understand how bowed characters work in conflicts. Characters do however bow after conflict resolution. So he is going to have to be kept ready with something like Indomitable Will, or find a way to unbow before the next conflict because bowed characters cannot be assigned to conflicts last time I checked. Outside of that you could use his printed ability to unbow, outside of combat, and then use a card that moves him in.

The point is that the options available to get this guy into mutiple conflicts are finite and situational. Some people are making it sound like it's a given this guy will be at every battle....which is simply not true

1 minute ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I think they mentioned the existence of action windows between conflicts in one of the livestreams.

That is my understanding too. Why would FFG mention in their own article that just by attaching weapons on him, he can participate in up to three conflicts per round if that is not the case.

Just now, blackheartz said:

That is my understanding too. Why would FFG mention in their own article that just by attaching weapons on him, he can participate in up to three conflicts per round if that is not the case.

To be fair, it's not like FFG hadn't caught mistakes in their articles and gone back to fix them. I'm trying to remember the last time it happened, but the first one was the change from "Shiro no Yojin" to "Yojin no Shiro".

Just now, Kakita Shiro said:

To be fair, it's not like FFG hadn't caught mistakes in their articles and gone back to fix them. I'm trying to remember the last time it happened, but the first one was the change from "Shiro no Yojin" to "Yojin no Shiro".

Yeah but is one thing to missspell names, make grammatical errors or get some numbers wrong and another to not know how your game is played. We are talking about a whole action window here.

1 minute ago, blackheartz said:

Yeah but is one thing to missspell names, make grammatical errors or get some numbers wrong and another to not know how your game is played. We are talking about a whole action window here.

I remember they also had to correct themselves for rules in their own game play sample in the article Conflicts of Rokugan. If you search back through these forums, you'll see what I'm talking about because the forward-facing article has been edited.

31 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I think they mentioned the existence of action windows between conflicts in one of the livestreams.

As well, it's standard practice in their other games so I can't imagine FFG not including them.

Maybe I just got so pissed off by Alex's poor play when Jenny stomped him I didn't read it right? I just don't remember it specifically being said or printed previously, that there is an action window before each conflict, but, given the wording in the dragon article and the ridiculous amounts of action windows in Conquest, you're probably right.

So great you have a 3/3 available for up to 3 conflicts. Presuming you attached one ancestral weapon and one free weapon, both of which do nothing in political, is that really worth the 5 fate on a character that won't stick around?

I don't see NM being good at multiple attacks and defenses. That doesn't mean he can't do it, clearly he can. but, should he? Maybe just the military attack and defense and have an extra unbow for at least one battle to make sure you get his stats. Just showing up at three separate conflicts does not really sounds like it's the best part of this guy. I'm sure it will come up at some point, but I don't see it as a selling point to try and convince me he's better or on par with any other 4 cost character.

3/3 for 4 is not a good deal. 7/3 for 5 or 6 that can chew up two bow effects in a crucial conflict seems like it will be important in some matchups. He's not as bad as some people say but he's not as great as others are saying either.

The other reason to stand him is to take the Imperial Favor.

16 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

So great you have a 3/3 available for up to 3 conflicts. Presuming you attached one ancestral weapon and one free weapon, both of which do nothing in political, is that really worth the 5 fate on a character that won't stick around?

Not saying you're wrong overall, but he could potentially attach Kitsuki's Method which is ancestral and would give a +2 for political. And if you can honor him, that's another +2. Obviously it's somewhat conditional, but that gives you a shot at what, 7/7 for 5-6 fate?

EDIT: just realized his ability only works for weapons, so maybe that wouldn't work out, at least if you're relying on the KM to ready him.

NM isn't amazing - no. He isn't a clan champion or anything, but he is certainly strong. I think the 3 conflicts is the best part about him. He has 3 pol, which isn't bad! Bring him out, attack pol, attack mil, defend mil, and let him die. Play ancestral daisho x2 if possible so you get the weapons back for another character that may stick around, or for another NM.

He's solid - but he's for a short play. He's for a single aggressive turn where you try to take 2 provinces.

3 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Not saying you're wrong overall, but he could potentially attach Kitsuki's Method which is ancestral and would give a +2 for political. And if you can honor him, that's another +2. Obviously it's somewhat conditional, but that gives you a shot at what, 7/7 for 5-6 fate?

Kitsuki's Method isn't a weapon - so it wouldn't straighten him, but it would take 1 of his 2 restricted slots.. Not that it makes him BAD, but I think his ability suits more of a fast / short play, without putting extra fate on him since his ability is only able to be triggered twice before he's used up. (unless you let it go or your opponent is foolish enough to do it for you)

I think the Dragon have better targets for Kitsuki's Method... but not a bad comment.

Also, after checking gamepedia, there are only four weapons currently in the game, and only one of them is neutral, one of them is dragon, one is lion, and one is crab. Meaning, unless there are either more neutral weapons or more dragon weapons that have yet to be previewed, at best you will only have nine weapons in your entire conflict deck, most or all of them have the restricted restriction, and there are several other attachments that are also restricted but not weapons, therefore getting him to three different conflicts will be difficult, because that would require him going the entire first conflict with zero weapons or other restricted attachments, and the entire second one with only one. Not saying it wouldn't be doable, rather that it is unlikely to ever be your best play in a given game state.

Seems a shame Height of Fashion costs 3 influence. I feel like it could be a fun starter attachment for NM to give him 7 political on his initial conflict, or 9 if you can honor him. Kind of expensive though between the influence and fate costs.

Yeah, in the tentative decklist I've come up with I put in 1x height of fashion, because I think that +4p is worth it, but it certainly limited the other cards I could pull in, and crane have a decent selection. However, I likely will wind up dropping it at some point for other cards, depending on how the meta goes from here.

27 minutes ago, psychie said:

Also, after checking gamepedia, there are only four weapons currently in the game, and only one of them is neutral, one of them is dragon, one is lion, and one is crab. Meaning, unless there are either more neutral weapons or more dragon weapons that have yet to be previewed, at best you will only have nine weapons in your entire conflict deck, most or all of them have the restricted restriction, and there are several other attachments that are also restricted but not weapons, therefore getting him to three different conflicts will be difficult, because that would require him going the entire first conflict with zero weapons or other restricted attachments, and the entire second one with only one. Not saying it wouldn't be doable, rather that it is unlikely to ever be your best play in a given game state.

Just dragon and neutral you have 6 weapon cards in your deck. With a 40 card deck that is over 10% of your deck that are weapons already. You start with 4 drawn to start the game, this gives you a decent chance to already have 1 of these. Dragon is a clan that I think may be willing to lose 2-3 honor to draw deep (not against Lion) to stretch for more conflict cards depending on the board state. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect this play to be a staple of Dragon play, at least out of the core set. It isn't likely to be a turn 1 combo, but it could easily be a turn 2-3 double province + defense power play.

Being restricted doesn't matter - he can have 2 restricted attachments, and only needs 2 weapons to trigger his ability as much as possible. Going 9 weapons would be deep... that is almost a quarter of your deck! It's more likely you will use 6 (3 dragon 3 neutral), possibly 1-2 splash... but you don't need them.

8 minutes ago, psychie said:

Yeah, in the tentative decklist I've come up with I put in 1x height of fashion, because I think that +4p is worth it, but it certainly limited the other cards I could pull in, and crane have a decent selection. However, I likely will wind up dropping it at some point for other cards, depending on how the meta goes from here.

One of the biggest benefits of Height of Fashion is the fact that it is not restricted. Niten Master's biggest limiter currently is the fact that all known weapons are restricted.

45 minutes ago, psychie said:

Also, after checking gamepedia, there are only four weapons currently in the game, and only one of them is neutral, one of them is dragon, one is lion, and one is crab. Meaning, unless there are either more neutral weapons or more dragon weapons that have yet to be previewed, at best you will only have nine weapons in your entire conflict deck, most or all of them have the restricted restriction, and there are several other attachments that are also restricted but not weapons, therefore getting him to three different conflicts will be difficult, because that would require him going the entire first conflict with zero weapons or other restricted attachments, and the entire second one with only one. Not saying it wouldn't be doable, rather that it is unlikely to ever be your best play in a given game state.

Just use Ancestral Daisho and Let Go. Drop the weapon, returns to hand, equip and Ready Niten Master. The Daisho doesn't even need to be on Niten, it could be on another character.

1 hour ago, psychie said:

Yeah, in the tentative decklist I've come up with I put in 1x height of fashion, because I think that +4p is worth it, but it certainly limited the other cards I could pull in, and crane have a decent selection. However, I likely will wind up dropping it at some point for other cards, depending on how the meta goes from here.

If you're going Dragon with Crane splash, try Duelist Training. It's just 1 influence, so it helps offset the expensive HoF 3, and it actually give the ability to the character it attaches to so you can use it twice with WotD. Togashi Yokuni could probably make quick work of any army with 2 of those duels AND 2 uses of a copied ability...

So, I get that there is some concern over the swingyness of Dragon but I'm not so certain of that. I kind feel like they are intended from both design and fiction to be a patient clan. Building and withstanding until they have the proper setup. Unlike classic l5r lost battles don't result in discarded characters or huge honor swings so hold you off until they have the advantage which seems more like the mid-game.

1 hour ago, Tam Palso said:

Just use Ancestral Daisho and Let Go. Drop the weapon, returns to hand, equip and Ready Niten Master. The Daisho doesn't even need to be on Niten, it could be on another character.

The Ancestral keyword doesn't just send the attachment back to hand any time it would be discarded, it sends it to the hand instead of the discard pile when the attached character is discarded, so it remains useful after the character's fate times out, if you use let go on ancestral daisho, or even on kitsutki methods, they would, in fact, get discarded, not bounced back to your hand.

5 minutes ago, psychie said:

The Ancestral keyword doesn't just send the attachment back to hand any time it would be discarded, it sends it to the hand instead of the discard pile when the attached character is discarded, so it remains useful after the character's fate times out, if you use let go on ancestral daisho, or even on kitsutki methods, they would, in fact, get discarded, not bounced back to your hand.

The wording on Ancestral Daisho is
(When attached card leaves play, return this card to your hand.)

That is a good point! I overlooked that! It only returns to your hand when the card it is attached to leaves play. You do lose the card if you Let Go or otherwise discard the card attachment directly! Good catch, I completely missed that.