3 minutes ago, phillos said:

I suspect Togashi Kazue is meant to be an econ engine. If you get her out early she's a 2 Fate swing each time she triggers. On top of that the savings she gives you is proportional to the card on which she's adding Fate. In a perfect world she's potentially generating a pretty significant economic swing. Late game I guess she's still a body that can throw off battle math. That said 3 Fate is such a hurdle to get over for a card that benefit's you down the line, but that does seem very thematic for the Dragons. Also she has a cute combo with Mirumoto Raitsugu. Fate burn seems to be a bit of a sub-theme in this faction. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

Additionally way of the dragon with that last combo is very good, remove 2 fate, Duel twice and discard two characters then throw in Indomitable Will to use him to go and kill a province after defending against 2-3 characters and removing 2 of them.

29 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I can't quite put my finger on why, but the Dragon previews really have me excited for the Scorpion ones...

Probably because Kazue and Raitsugu reek of Wasting Disease... Have the Dragon already opened a Black Scroll?? haha

11 minutes ago, GooeyChewie said:

First reaction, Dragon seem like a Clan which will either win big or go home. If the right cards show up at the right times, you can pull off some pretty crazy feats.

Togashi Yokuni with Way of the Dragon and Togashi Kazue attached, with Mirumoto Raitsugu in play face off against a personality with three Fate, steal two Fate, duel away a third and then duel the personality to discardation! (That last part might not be a word.) And the one time in ten (or more) that you pull off that crazy combo, you'll win big! But tournaments are determined by your win/loss record, not how big your one win was. And for that reason, Dragon seem like a kitchen-table clan.

But the key word there is "seem." I'll absolutely give them a try!

I'm with you on this. IF you get the right opening to mid, you likely have a very overwhelming close. IF you don't... then you just... don't... ever... I think... but that is based on my experience from voltron decks in other games, we'll have to see how it plays out in L5R as we go.

The way ancestral items work already helps fix some of the issues, also having character / items also helps smooth it out... I'm hopeful it will be better than other game's voltron play

Yokuni can only copy printed abilities on charakters. Kazue has her ability only if she is played as an attachment. So Yokuni can't copy Kazue in any case. Or do I miss something?

I think we are worrying too much about the combos and not about some of the strengths of the clan. If we look at some of the older card reveals, we see cards that are cheap for decent threats and our opponent knows that dragon runs a lot of surprise boosts from attachments. So playing the Niten Adept and a Doomed Shugenja (and those 2 one cost guys we saw in the combat preview) threaten the board early as a strong defense and a strong offense for 3-4 fate, then like a ramp character they have some extra fate in hand next round, some extra fate on Rings and some breathing room to pump up their strong characters and punish their opponent. Feels very control heavy with ways to remove characters or to force characters to not defend etc and then big huge threats later on.

1 minute ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Yokuni can only copy printed abilities on charakters. Kazue has her ability only if she is played as an attachment. So Yokuni can't copy Kazue in any case. Or do I miss something?

No, I think you're right here. Kazue's ability is still pretty good though. I quite like the idea of her with Enlightened Warrior as he is a character that could 'stick' for several turns.

25 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Yokuni can only copy printed abilities on charakters. Kazue has her ability only if she is played as an attachment. So Yokuni can't copy Kazue in any case. Or do I miss something?

Correct - Yokuni can only copy abilities printed on a character card - not on the items, but WotD allows a character to re-use any triggered abilities which I presume includes ones gained through items. So Yokuni with Kazue and WotD could use Kazue twice, AND the ability he copies twice such as Raitsugu... That is a lot of fate sapping... so poisonous... I'm really excited to see what Scorpion can do since this isn't even dishonorable stuff yet...

It is possible it does not allow abilities on items to be used twice... I am not certain either way, but it is interesting.

edit - after looking through other cards - Kazue would not be copied by WotD because the ability comes from the attachment. Duelist Training is an attachment that specifically grants its ability to the character so WotD could allow this to be used twice.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

How many characters have a - as mil or pol stat? I get that it is effective at drawing out defenders thus thinning the reserve but I think people are over estimating its value. Against Lion it may have been powerful, as the Lion are weak politically and play mostly from provinces. Against the balanced Dragon who can play some conflict cards it may not seem as useful. It may even cost you the battle bringing in that extra character...

Yeah, a lot of theorycrafters may be overestimating the power of Doji Challenger and underestimating Niten Master's ability to be used in multiple conflicts. Set up right a Niten Master might be able to win 3 battles solo if you start with a political conflict and have 2 weapons in hand.

2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Correct - Yokuni can only copy abilities printed on a character card - not on the items, but WotD allows a character to re-use any triggered abilities which I presume includes ones gained through items. So Yokuni with Kazue and WotD could use Kazue twice, AND the ability he copies twice such as Raitsugu... That is a lot of fate sapping... so poisonous... I'm really excited to see what Scorpion can do since this isn't even dishonorable stuff yet...

I'm not sure, but I don' think so. Not the charakter has the ability. The attachement (Kazue) has it. WotD only allows you to use the ability of the charakter twice. But again, I'm not sure.

9 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

I'm not sure, but I don' think so. Not the charakter has the ability. The attachement (Kazue) has it. WotD only allows you to use the ability of the charakter twice. But again, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I made sure I included the "I presume" disclaimer because I haven't reviewed all of the cards for that detail yet, and I know that ol5r as well as other games have distinguished between an attachment having an ability, and an attachment giving a character an ability.

I did review it since that post - In this game we have Duelist Training which states "Attached Character Gains - Action:..." which makes me think WotD would not allow multiple uses of Kazue, but Dragon clan could splash Duelist Training and use it with WotD to issue 2 duels with that ability.

21 minutes ago, wolfien8 said:

I think we are worrying too much about the combos and not about some of the strengths of the clan. If we look at some of the older card reveals, we see cards that are cheap for decent threats and our opponent knows that dragon runs a lot of surprise boosts from attachments. So playing the Niten Adept and a Doomed Shugenja (and those 2 one cost guys we saw in the combat preview) threaten the board early as a strong defense and a strong offense for 3-4 fate, then like a ramp character they have some extra fate in hand next round, some extra fate on Rings and some breathing room to pump up their strong characters and punish their opponent. Feels very control heavy with ways to remove characters or to force characters to not defend etc and then big huge threats later on.

I agree here. Yes, Dragon have some clever tricks even with a couple of cheaper characters. 'let go' (0) to disarm an opponent, follow up with Niten Adept (2), to bow them. Mirimuto's Fury (1), bow another opponent . Maybe a tattooed wanderer (1) and you have potentially snuck past 3 opponents to claim a ring? Quite situational and a rather extended example there (probably not worth the effort?).

But even a single Seeker of Enlightenment can be a late game threat if there are enough Fate on Rings at that point. 2 or 3 of them could be a significant threat in either conflict.

I think we are also starting to get a glimpse of how Influence might be spent either on a Dragon Clan deck, or drawing from Dragons conflict card pool. In the example above swap out the Tattooed Wanderer for Pacifism (2) and you have a strong defensive play against a military force (e.g. Lion) for relatively little outlay.

19 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

I'm not sure, but I don' think so. Not the charakter has the ability. The attachement (Kazue) has it. WotD only allows you to use the ability of the charakter twice. But again, I'm not sure.

Oh, wow. I totally read them as "that character gains." I thought that was the whole point of Way of the Dragon. So pretty much all the cool combos I thought they had don't actually work.

Dragon Clan play - Yokuni copies Doji Gift Giver - gives 1 fate to the opponent, they must then bow a character. Yokuni activates attached Kazue and takes the fate back lol

Just had a quick game against Crane, and I can tell you that Yokuni's ability is going to be crazy fun. He copied, in three separate turns:

Brash Samurai, to honor himself.

Niten Master, to ready himself.

Kakita Kaezin (!!), to roflstomp a defending army. He was 12 Mil at the time.

The Kaezin play was definitely a misplay by my opponent just to bring him out, but even if he didn't, that's basically preventing your opponent from playing him.

And oh yeah, Tattooed Wanderer is awesome, especially on Yokuni. Dragon is fun :).

10 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

Just had a quick game against Crane, and I can tell you that Yokuni's ability is going to be crazy fun. He copied, in three separate turns...

Turns, or rounds? I ask since his copy ability is limited to a max of once per round.

Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

Turns, or rounds? I ask since his copy ability is limited to a max of once per round

Rounds.

1 minute ago, Casanunda said:

Rounds.

Can he copy "Action:" abilities, or just "reaction"?

Edit: ignore that, the text reads he can use Togashi Initiate so seems pretty clear

Cool. Sounds like a lot of fun

2 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Can he copy "Action:" abilities, or just "reaction"?

He copies any "triggered" ability, which means anything like action: or reaction: but not like Asahina Storyteller

2 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Can he copy "Action:" abilities, or just "reaction"?

His card says activated abilities, so he can't copy passive ones (like steward of law who says people can't be dishonored) But actions and Reactions are fair game.

Just now, wolfien8 said:

His card says activated abilities, so he can't copy passive ones (like steward of law who says people can't be dishonored) But actions and Reactions are fair game.

And Interrupts.

1 minute ago, Sparks Duh said:

And Interrupts.

Like what? I can't think of an interrupt.

2 minutes ago, wolfien8 said:

Like what? I can't think of an interrupt.

Reprieve, Stand Your Ground, The Art of Peace, The Art of War, Voice of Honor, Way of the Unicorn, and Young Rumormonger all have Interrupts.

2 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Reprieve, Stand Your Ground, The Art of Peace, The Art of War, Voice of Honor, Way of the Unicorn, and Young Rumormonger all have Interrupts.

Thanks! I forget all the different cards since I haven't actually played with any of them yet. Once I get my hands on a few I am sure I will remember better.

Dragon seem a very solid clan.

Their champion will be a monster, needing little help in order to be a terror on the battlefield and his ability will only get better as more cards get printed.

Also people seriously underestimate Niten Master. In the games we played, but I've seen other people reach the same conclusion on youtube, the games more often than not come down to the ability to defend or break a single extra province. A card that can so easily participate in multiple conflicts, while negating your opponents control cards and character abilities will be very strong.

Dragon have some very good low cost cards like Doomed Shugenja, Mirumoto Prodigy and Agasha Swordsmith that can have a big impact at any given turn.

1 hour ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Yeah, a lot of theorycrafters may be overestimating the power of Doji Challenger and underestimating Niten Master's ability to be used in multiple conflicts. Set up right a Niten Master might be able to win 3 battles solo if you start with a political conflict and have 2 weapons in hand.

You still have to be able to get him back into battle somehow, unless I missed the part where FFG said we could assign bowed personalities to conflicts.

Don't get me wrong, he's a stat stick and with cards like Indomitable Will, he shouldn't be overlooked by anyone. But he is still a pure stats character and generally having more printed abilities that can do stuff have a bigger impact on the game.

Readying up to twice per turn ain't nothing bit it's likely going to cost extra fate to do it and that could end up crippling your board state when you run out of ways to keep him unbowed from conflict resolution or move him into conflicts of deal with dishonor and other force reduction effects which I'm sure we'll see.