Probably a dumb question but can you use The Grand Inquisitor's effect (When an enemy ship at distance 1-5 changes its speed, you may exhaust this card to increase or decrease your speed by 1.) after using G8s or Phylon Q7 Tractor beams to change an enemy ships speed?

I think not since it states 'when a ship changes its speed' rather than 'when a ship's speed changes' - subtle difference but thought it worth asking.

Nothing that speaks against it. The enemy ship changes its speed, so you can use the Inquistior to change yours.

The Tractor Beam says:
" That ship must spend a navigate token, or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1."

This is full in line with the trigger for the Inquisitor:
"When an enemy ship at distance 1-5 changes its speed,"

I think you're right on Tractor Beams Tokra - the card states the enemy ship must reduce its speed which fits with the Inquisitors wording.

But I don't think it works with G8s as it is the Interdictor that is doing the speed change not the enemy ship.

Missed the question about the G8. And this one is interessting. Because if G8 would work, an overlapping with another ship would work as well.

But you are right. G8 "should" not count for the Inquisitor. Reason from the FAQ:

Quote

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?
A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved. The ship executes the maneuver by completing the Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not count as having changed its speed.

So only if the speed dial is changed, it count as change of the speed. At least for external maneuvers like Engine Techs. I would pull the same rule for G8 (and for overlapping with ships). A temporarily change is not a change in the speed for the Inqisitor.

There is no doubt whatsoever about G8s: the ship's actual speed (which is the one on the dial) does not change. The maneuver is simply executed at a different temporary speed. So the Inquisitor does not trigger.

Moreover, like Thruster Fissure, The Grand Inquisitor requires that the ship itself changes its speed, i.e. that the speed dial be changed by the ship's owner . So it would not trigger if the speed change is done by Admiral Konstantine's ability (which is worded quite different from the Tractor Beams ability).

So, are The Grand Inquisitor and Thruster Fissure triggered by...

• Q7 Phylon Tractor beams? Yes
• G8 Experimental Projector? No
• Admiral Konstantine? No
• Comms Noise? ...I don't think so (don't have the exact wording in front of me)

For a more in-depth read, see below - the topic was discussed long ago in another thread:

I think I am going to love the auto speed modification that this combo is going to bring.

JJ = "free" maneuverability

Phylon + inquisitor = free speed change

Phylon = control over enemy navigation.

That seems an 100% carrier dedicated ISD and a 100% smasher dedicated ISD at the same time!

3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I think I am going to love the auto speed modification that this combo is going to bring.

JJ = "free" maneuverability

Phylon + inquisitor = free speed change

Phylon = control over enemy navigation.

That seems an 100% carrier dedicated ISD and a 100% smasher dedicated ISD at the same time!

Now play with Konstantine and another ISD. And 8 Tie/D.

On 6/28/2017 at 5:00 AM, DiabloAzul said:

There is no doubt whatsoever about G8s: the ship's actual speed (which is the one on the dial) does not change. The maneuver is simply executed at a different temporary speed. So the Inquisitor does not trigger.

Moreover, like Thruster Fissure, The Grand Inquisitor requires that the ship itself changes its speed, i.e. that the speed dial be changed by the ship's owner . So it would not trigger if the speed change is done by Admiral Konstantine's ability (which is worded quite different from the Tractor Beams ability).

So, are The Grand Inquisitor and Thruster Fissure triggered by...

• Q7 Phylon Tractor beams? Yes
• G8 Experimental Projector? No
• Admiral Konstantine? No
• Comms Noise? ...I don't think so (don't have the exact wording in front of me)

Hmm.... Why not Comms Noise? It forces them to change the dial and their speed, I would figure it would work with GI. Is there a weird caveat with Comms noise I am missing?

7 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Hmm.... Why not Comms Noise? It forces them to change the dial and their speed, I would figure it would work with GI. Is there a weird caveat with Comms noise I am missing?

Not quite:

Comm Noise x2 - Crew - Your opponent may either reduce speed by 1 or choose a new command on your command dial, then flip face down

Notice that it's your opponent (so, the opponent of the ship to which the crit was dealt) who is reducing the speed. The GI only triggers when the ship itself reduces its own speed.

Not sure I buy that. I can see why, but it can equally be as simple as.

When an Enemy (this is target criteria) ship changes speed. As in you cannot use it on a Friendly ship, it must be an Enemy. ( Friend/Enemy are common target parameters for upgrade cards.)

Not that the opponent only is required to change speed for a qualifier.

I'd say anything that causes a speed dial to actually change value on an Enemy ship is qualifier for the Grand Inquisitor.

Like I said though, I can see why people would think it means Enemy only.

10 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'd say anything that causes a speed dial to actually change value on an Enemy ship is qualifier for the Grand Inquisitor.

Like I said though, I can see why people would think it means Enemy only.

If you follow the other thread that I quoted, there's a discussion on this very topic with the FFG designers . Originally James Kniffen held that stuff triggers "when the ship changes speed for any reason", but this was later reviewed and he specifically addressed the important of the "you" in the "when you change speed" clause. The FAQ was then updated accordingly, to clarify that Konstantine (who changes an enemy's speed directly, rather than forcing them to change speed) does not trigger Thruster Fissure.

35 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

If you follow the other thread that I quoted, there's a discussion on this very topic with the FFG designers . Originally James Kniffen held that stuff triggers "when the ship changes speed for any reason", but this was later reviewed and he specifically addressed the important of the "you" in the "when you change speed" clause. The FAQ was then updated accordingly, to clarify that Konstantine (who changes an enemy's speed directly, rather than forcing them to change speed) does not trigger Thruster Fissure.

I see, it is interesting, but not sure how applicable it is here.

Neither Comm Noise, nor Tractor Beams say you, nor does the Grand inquisitor, if Tractor Beams are a legal trigger for Grand Inquisitor, so then Comm Noise must be also. both are effects generated by an opponent doing something, with the resolution being an Enemy ship changing its speed.

Or if the only legal trigger is when "you" change speed, then neither should work.

"That ship reduces its [own] speed" (Phylon) is not the same thing as "[you] reduce that ship's speed" (Konstantine, Comms Noise).

In other words, a ship may:

• A) change its own speed, whether voluntarily, or forced to by an opponent's effect (Phylon), or
• B) have its speed changed directly by some other effect (Adm. Konstantine and probably Comms Noise)

A) triggers Thruster Fissure, B) does not (I'm not making this up, it's explicitly said by James Kniffen and in the FAQ for Admiral Konstantine). And The Grand Inquisitor has the same trigger condition as Thruster Fissure.

Comm Noise is a Critical Effect, it is generating the effect, the person chooses which effect is going to be resolved, but you are not causing it, the card itself is. Just like Tractor Beams.

Konstaintine is not the same as Comm Noise.

4 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Comm Noise is a Critical Effect, it is generating the effect, the person chooses which effect is going to be resolved, but you are not causing it, the card itself is. Just like Tractor Beams.

Konstaintine is not the same as Comm Noise.

The Argument that the Designer was making was:

Comms Noise is generating the effect, for sure. Comms noise as a critical generates an effect for Resolution.

However.

But what effect is it generating?

"Your opponent may either reduce speed by 1 or choose a new command on your command dial, then flip face down."

It generates an effect where the opponent reduces the Speed by 1.

The ship does not voluntarily change. The Defending Player, or owner of the Ship does not change.

The Opponent is changing the Speed of the Ship.

Very similar argument to the situation we have with Sloane and "The Defender Can" versus the situation where it doesn't mention Defender.

Its... not the cleanest set of circumstances, for sure... But that is why we have a clear definition in the rulebook of some of the wording involved...

Something can happen to a Ship... It can happen because:

a) "You" do it. In which case, that means 'the ship this upgrade is on'.
b) The ship does it. Because "The Ship..." does it.
c) Your Opponent does it, because "Your Opponent..."
d) Another Ship does it. "You reduce the speed of another Ship..."

Rather than make assumptions that because a card generates the effect, the card resolves the effect, we need to take into account what the card tells us about the effect resolution - because that can have ramifications.

For example, if Sloan said: "The Defender Spends a Defense token", that has a different connotation. For one, it would stop Redundant Tokens being used... But the Defender would also ahve the choice of it.

If Sloan was wordier, it could also say: "The Attacker chooses a defense token, and the defender spends it." - Now the Defender has spent the Defense Token, so Redundant tokens can't be used against that attack... And the attacker gets to choose - BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

In both instances, the source of the Spending is Sloane - but who is actually doing the spending does matter.

I find that a bit of a stretch Dras, simply for the fact that Tractor Beams is definitely an effect generated by your opponent that forces you to change speed, you aren't doing it, your opponents ship has locked a tractor beam on to your ship and it is slowing you down, and this is legal according to you and DiabloAzul.

Yet Comm Noise is a critical effect generated by an attack, you sustain critical damage in, after that point your opponents interaction ceases, they pick which effect is resolved, they are not telling you to reduce speed, Comm Noise is, the critical damage you just suffered is making your crew get confused and they reduce speed or forget what they are supposed to be doing. And this is not you changing speed yourself?.

It does not add up.

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying it can easily be argued either way. it is not a clear cut no.

2 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying it can easily be argued either way. it is not a clear cut no.

No, what Made it clear cut was the designers saying it was Clear Cut in the end

Yeah, it wasn't clear cut until it was stated explicitly by the designer and put in the FAQ.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

No, what Made it clear cut was the designers saying it was Clear Cut in the end

2 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

Yeah, it wasn't clear cut until it was stated explicitly by the designer and put in the FAQ.

They said Comm Noise is not legal? and Tractor Beams are? /shakes head

6 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

They said Comm Noise is not legal? and Tractor Beams are? /shakes head

Basically.

The difference being: "Comm Noise" states the Opponent changes the ships speed by 1. Yes, the ship's speed is changed, but its changed by the opponent .

Whereas Phylom:

When you activate, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 enemy ship of your size class or smaller at distance 1-5. That ship must spend a NAV token or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1.

The Ships speed is changed, and the Ship is the one doing the speed Change - because it specifies "That ship ... reduces its speed by 1."

It does not say "The opponent reduces its speed by 1."

It is a difference in terminology - and one that is clear when you view the card in those immediate words and nothing else.

26 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Basically.

The difference being: "Comm Noise" states the Opponent changes the ships speed by 1. Yes, the ship's speed is changed, but its changed by the opponent .

Whereas Phylom:

When you activate, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 enemy ship of your size class or smaller at distance 1-5. That ship must spend a NAV token or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1.

The Ships speed is changed, and the Ship is the one doing the speed Change - because it specifies "That ship ... reduces its speed by 1."

It does not say "The opponent reduces its speed by 1."

It is a difference in terminology - and one that is clear when you view the card in those immediate words and nothing else.

I'll never understand some of the choices they make, but that is fine I guess. Rules and words are fine, but they need to actually remember what is supposedly going on when these things occur, otherwise you end up with a disconnect from immersion.

Thanks Dras, and DiabloA for the discussion.

17 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Basically.

The difference being: "Comm Noise" states the Opponent changes the ships speed by 1. Yes, the ship's speed is changed, but its changed by the opponent .

Whereas Phylom:

When you activate, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 enemy ship of your size class or smaller at distance 1-5. That ship must spend a NAV token or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1.

The Ships speed is changed, and the Ship is the one doing the speed Change - because it specifies "That ship ... reduces its speed by 1."

It does not say "The opponent reduces its speed by 1."

It is a difference in terminology - and one that is clear when you view the card in those immediate words and nothing else.

So if the opponent decides to use a Nav command, it's the OPPONENT using a nav command to change it's speed..the speed is changed by the opponent, so Inquisitor doesn't work.

Makes it a pretty crappy card.

Edit- was thinking backwards with comm noise

3 minutes ago, Daht said:

So if the opponent decides to use a Nav command, it's the OPPONENT using a nav command to change it's speed..the speed is changed by the opponent, so Inquisitor doesn't work.

Makes it a pretty crappy card.

I think you have it backwards.

GI triggers when an enemy ship changes speed. Comms Noise is a choice you make, not the enemy (opponent). Tractor Beams makes your enemy (opponent) change speed, not you. Konstantine allows you to change speed, not your enemy (opponent).

If your enemy (opponent) changes speed with a Nav command, GI triggers.

If you make your enemy change speed, GI does not trigger. If you enemy makes a speed change, GI triggers.

An inaccurate but nonetheless entertaining analogy is the movie Speed.

"If the bus slows down, the bomb goes off" is really not the same premise as "if the driver hits the brakes, the bomb goes off".

In the latter case, the movie would have been rather short!

In Armada, though, both Thruster Fissure and Grand Inquisitor trigger if the driver hits the brakes - but not if someone shoots the tires. The trick is to figure out which game effects constitute "hitting the brakes". And the distinction depends only on the wording of the card, counter-intuitive and un-thematic as the results may be:

• Resolving a Navigate command is the standard case of the driver hitting the brakes.
• Admiral Konstantine is clearly shooting the tires.
• Comms Noise also shoots the tires, even if the wording is a little odd.
• Tractor Beams (and this is where things get weird) force the driver to hit the brakes.