I'm about to start on a new series of posts and it may result in ruin, but it's worth trying. Read about me laying about my plan for this new series here:

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/06/checking-it-twice-setting-up-idea.html

yessss~!

I'm down with it. It's something that I feel like elite players just basically have internalized, but can still make silly mistakes after a long day of Armada at a tournament.

For example, I (by no means an elite player) lost out on second place at the store champs this weekend, because I forgot to resolve my engineering command. Went from an 8-3 win, to a 5-6 loss. Dropped me to 5th, missing out on the Dodonna card and the range ruler....All because I forgot to spend 2 engineering points, that I knew I would need 2 turns ago. Even a basic checklist would've prevented that.

While that highlights the point you're making, I feel like this would be a bit more in-depth or specific probably? Ie, expected output damage from your ships, estimated damage they can take, and so on. You're saying that this checklist would help you understand your list better, allowing you to make better decisions in the game.

3 minutes ago, Card Knight said:

I'm down with it. It's something that I feel like elite players just basically have internalized, but can still make silly mistakes after a long day of Armada at a tournament.

For example, I (by no means an elite player) lost out on second place at the store champs this weekend, because I forgot to resolve my engineering command. Went from an 8-3 win, to a 5-6 loss. Dropped me to 5th, missing out on the Dodonna card and the range ruler....All because I forgot to spend 2 engineering points, that I knew I would need 2 turns ago. Even a basic checklist would've prevented that.

While that highlights the point you're making, I feel like this would be a bit more in-depth or specific probably? Ie, expected output damage from your ships, estimated damage they can take, and so on. You're saying that this checklist would help you understand your list better, allowing you to make better decisions in the game.

somewhat. i vacillate between considering some of those things, like expected damage, and then having to gloss over them. At the very start, this is me thinking of a way to A) set up your game/deploy correctly, B) choose the right ship to activate next and C) do all that stuff while you're activating that you want to. We'll see what ACTUALLY happens, though, haha.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

somewhat. i vacillate between considering some of those things, like expected damage, and then having to gloss over them. At the very start, this is me thinking of a way to A) set up your game/deploy correctly, B) choose the right ship to activate next and C) do all that stuff while you're activating that you want to. We'll see what ACTUALLY happens, though, haha.

Yeah I follow you. It would ultimately boil down to a topic like "Survivability" or somthing, where you have a strong understanding of what your ships can take, and what enemy ships can. It would boil down to seeing that title and taking a second to think about how much more your/their ship can take.

An interesting premise that I'm looking forward to reading more about. I feel that this, along with several other engineering practices, may be beneficial concepts to bring into armada.

Congrats on the new job!

I'm all up for check lists (being a QI bod), unfortunately you could not used any such list in tournament play....no outside reference material allowed. Good for friendly play though.

6 minutes ago, Johnnyreb said:

I'm all up for check lists (being a QI bod), unfortunately you could not used any such list in tournament play....no outside reference material allowed. Good for friendly play though.

Agreed. I believe the project (speaking for @geek19 ) is to use this for casual play, particularly for less experienced players, to develop effective habits that should at some point obviate* the need for a physical checklist once they're ready for competitive play.

*I wasted a lot of money on college, so please be impressed with my $5 word.

31 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Agreed. I believe the project (speaking for @geek19 ) is to use this for casual play, particularly for less experienced players, to develop effective habits that should at some point obviate* the need for a physical checklist once they're ready for competitive play.

*I wasted a lot of money on college, so please be impressed with my $5 word.

I would say you have at least a £10 word there my old son.....

Yeah, starting out casually, but ideally the list is both easy enough to memorize and simple enough that you can remember it without needing the checklist in front of you. Ideally...

2 hours ago, Johnnyreb said:

I'm all up for check lists (being a QI bod), unfortunately you could not used any such list in tournament play....no outside reference material allowed. Good for friendly play though.

Are you allowed to make notes on the game manuals? I know there is an order of turn guide on the back of the RRG.

8 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Are you allowed to make notes on the game manuals? I know there is an order of turn guide on the back of the RRG.

I would think that goes against the spirit of the tournament rules, so I would not advise it.

9 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I would think that goes against the spirit of the tournament rules, so I would not advise it.

How Technical do we want to get?

Because, fair Warning: The Next big is Super-Pedantic

In the most Technical sense, write on them all you want...

... But don't bring them with you. Written on or Not.


Player Materials

Players are responsible for bringing all of the game components they need to play a game of Star Wars: Armada. This includes all ship and squadron models, bases, pegs, ship cards, squadron cards, ship tokens, obstacles, upgrade cards, objective cards, and tokens. In addition, they must bring a damage deck, sufficient dice for attack rolls, a maneuver tool, and a range ruler. When a fleet list is required, players should bring a completed list or arrive at the venue early to fill one out.

As you can see, there's no specific mention of Rules here... One can argue that they're just not mentioned, and covered under 'game components they need to play'....

But they're specified here:

Organizer Materials

(...)

Finally, the organizer is also responsible for having all required rules documents on hand for reference during the event. This includes the Star Wars: Armada Core Set Rules Reference, Star Wars: Armada FAQ, Star Wars: Armada Tournament Regulations (this document), any Event Outline relevant to the event, and any other relevant document for the event. Most of these documents can be found on the Star Wars: Armada page of our website.

Rules are an Organizer Thing. Not a Player Thing.

Players are expected to be comfortable with rules (and more so, depending on scale of tournament) - but they're not required to bring rules

Is the question then, "Do pages from the rulebooks count as an outside reference?"

Frankly just having a copy of that back cover of the RRG with notes regarding my list for the day would help immensely. I don't get to play often enough to not miss things.

I get though how that might not be in the spirit of things though.

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Is the question then, "Do pages from the rulebooks count as an outside reference?"

Frankly just having a copy of that back cover of the RRG with notes regarding my list for the day would help immensely. I don't get to play often enough to not miss things.

I get though how that might not be in the spirit of things though.

A certain interpretation would be, "If they are brought in by the Player, then yes, they could be an outside reference."

When we look at the exact wording of the Regulation:

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round. However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the Star Wars: Armada page of our website, those found in a Star Wars: Armada product, or any portion thereof.

The portion there that I would look at (again, in the most pedantic way is that you may reference official rules documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time, or as a judge for clarification from official rule documents.

So that while above, you are not required to bring in Rules documents (the Organizer is required to - ideally because that way, the tournament has one set of up-to-date-and-correct Rules, rather than having some people bring in edited documents or modified documents to enforce their own way - yes, it has happened) - you are again, not specifically barred.

The problem I have is, what is a note and what is a rules document. In the strictest reading of the word, a Rules document is what is provided on the Website. The moment you put writing implement to that paper (even if its clarifying those rules), you've modified the document and its no longer exactly the rules document as available to everyone else on the website, and it is in danger of being classified at that point, as an outside reference...

I mean, the Straw-man argument there is, "what is to stop me from just writing all of my notes, tactics and strategic reminders for spectacular play in the margin of the Rules document? Its a Rules document, its Legal!"

"Cannot take notes" is pretty clear. Although does "take notes" refer only to during the game? But anything I might write on a rules document before the tourney would be outside material.

However it would be a tough call to tell me I can't bring a reduced copy but otherwise unaltered of the Quick Reference on the back of the RRG to the game. Or maybe dial it up on a smartphone or tablet as it seems pretty clear that I'm allowed to look at the rulebook.

Can the organizer make whatever notes he cares to on the rules documents he's supposed to have?

13 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

"Cannot take notes" is pretty clear. Although does "take notes" refer only to during the game? But anything I might write on a rules document before the tourney would be outside material.

However it would be a tough call to tell me I can't bring a reduced copy but otherwise unaltered of the Quick Reference on the back of the RRG to the game. Or maybe dial it up on a smartphone or tablet as it seems pretty clear that I'm allowed to look at the rulebook.

Can the organizer make whatever notes he cares to on the rules documents he's supposed to have?

I would agree - it would be a very tough call to tell someone they couldn't bring an otherwise unaltered copy along - they'd just have to justify it as "component needed to play the game."

The Organizer is not specifically restricted from taking Notes. They can bring in things like Email responses they have received from FFG and exerpts from Forum Discussions - they're allowed to, because its what is going to help them frame any rules discussions/decisions. That's specifically why they are allowed t do so.

But as a Caveat, I would state that in order for something to be a Rules Document, it has to be a Rules Document as described - and modifying a Rules Document makes it no longer a Rules Document - in my Most pedantic of opinions, of course

basically, if its not available as part of the Rules Document, it forms something that is not of a Rules Document.

So even if you do have a scribbled on note-sheet set of Rules Documents, that's cool... Just make sure you have an Unaltered copy to pull from at the same time. (Again, as an Organizer)

So I've used a checklist in both Warmachine and Malifaux, and they've been INCREDIBLY helpful.

However, they're explicitly forbidden by X-Wing and Armada tournament rules, so not AS helpful. The whole point is to have it there in front of you so that you DON'T forget something, and while even the act of writing a list helps cement it in your memory it is no substitute for actually having it in front of you...

Does anyone know WHY that's a tournament rule? Because it does seem arbitrary and foolish. I have a friend who collaged together all of the movement templates from the X-Wing boxes because that was something he could argue was not a note but rules provided by the makers of the game.

15 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

So I've used a checklist in both Warmachine and Malifaux, and they've been INCREDIBLY helpful.

However, they're explicitly forbidden by X-Wing and Armada tournament rules, so not AS helpful. The whole point is to have it there in front of you so that you DON'T forget something, and while even the act of writing a list helps cement it in your memory it is no substitute for actually having it in front of you...

Does anyone know WHY that's a tournament rule? Because it does seem arbitrary and foolish. I have a friend who collaged together all of the movement templates from the X-Wing boxes because that was something he could argue was not a note but rules provided by the makers of the game.

For Armada specifically, No. No I don't know.

The basis of the Tournament Documents is commonplace however, and Note-Taking is uber-verboten in most, if not all of the card games, where "counting cards" is totally a thing when you're remembering how many have been resolved, how many would remain of a certain card, etc, etc, etc.

At which point, they were generally just not removed from things as they went forward, perhaps.

Essentially, it goes part in part with the "Hidden Information" rules, and although there are hidden information things in Armada, they're generally not game-breaking.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

For Armada specifically, No. No I don't know.

The basis of the Tournament Documents is commonplace however, and Note-Taking is uber-verboten in most, if not all of the card games, where "counting cards" is totally a thing when you're remembering how many have been resolved, how many would remain of a certain card, etc, etc, etc.

At which point, they were generally just not removed from things as they went forward, perhaps.

Essentially, it goes part in part with the "Hidden Information" rules, and although there are hidden information things in Armada, they're generally not game-breaking.

Well, I can see it for damage decks (though the last X-Wing tournament I went to, of the first thirteen cards dealt to me, 6 of them were Direct Hits, and 5 were face up - with the last Direct Hit sitting right on top of my deck!) and Malifaux directly forbids one from using notes to count cards, so similar situation there. Hadn't thought of that angle, and I suppose it's easier to have one general rule across a broad set of tournament games.

For me, I would be to pragmatic and if both players agreed I would not have an issue with players using aids to remembering the rules. My personal view it this rule is aimed at stopping people using tactical notes, such as move x when playing y or always remember to activate card effect x at time y, those notes I would ban full stop.

Note taking is permitted in MtG. If you look at someone's hand you are allowed to write it down.