3 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I generally disagree with the concept of "Morality" stats in RPGs, unless there are choices to choose from and actual god(s) who rewards you directly for behaving coherently. See Shourido. Following Shourido is actively detrimental to your honor of your character, despite being an 'accepted' belief system. Shouldn't they have an Ambition stat that replaces honor?

Also, in L5R specifically, honor is different than perceived honor. And you can lose honor by behaving without anyone seeing you do it. For example, if you poison someone, and never get caught, you still lose honor. If you touch a corpse while by yourself, you still lose honor. However, I think there should be social consequences of if you poison someone and then someone finds out. For example, you get executed.

However, in the R&K RPG, these are the same thing. A breach of etiquette (Social Convention) is an honor loss, and can be a major one at that, depending on the error.

I see where you are coming from now.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Yes, this needs to go. All that should ever increase or decrease one's Honor is adhering or violating the seven virtues. You can probably make an argument that breaching etiquette violates Courtesy, but I would only disagree there.

Should they add a On stat? Or maybe make that part of Glory?

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Should they add a On stat? Or maybe make that part of Glory?

Yeah, this "I'm in a social trouble" kind of deal should be a thing for Infamy.

Going with an example from above, if you secretly poison someone for a vile and selfish reason, you lose Honor (violating Honesty). If it becomes known, you gain Infamy (at which point people around you start acting according to your shiny new Infamy Rank).

2 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I see where you are coming from now.

I absolutely agree that one of the interesting appeals to L5R is the difference in culture and to some extent, the moral system that they follow. However, I'd like to disconnect the in-game consequences versus mechanical character consequences, at least on the small scale.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, this "I'm in a social trouble" kind of deal should be a thing for Infamy.

Going with an example from above, if you secretly poison someone for a vile and selfish reason, you lose Honor (violating Honesty). If it becomes known, you gain Infamy (at which point people around you start acting according to your shiny new Infamy Rank).

What if you poison them because they are actively bad to you and you Clan? That is still an Honor loss. Or is it only an honor loss if you do it for personal gain?

Just now, Mirith said:

I absolutely agree that one of the interesting appeals to L5R is the difference in culture and to some extent, the moral system that they follow. However, I'd like to disconnect the in-game consequences versus mechanical character consequences, at least on the small scale.

What if you poison them because they are actively bad to you and you Clan? That is still an Honor loss. Or is it only an honor loss if you do it for personal gain?

Some schools (Lions Shadow) say SPECIFICALLY that it is not. Others, however, are not so clear cut. I think that's something that needs clearer definition in the future.

As a general thing, you would think the 'average ' Lion concerned with honor and bushido wouldn't even think of poison. A Scorpion however....

4 minutes ago, Mirith said:

What if you poison them because they are actively bad to you and you Clan? That is still an Honor loss. Or is it only an honor loss if you do it for personal gain?

If you do the objectively right thing, then it cannot be a Honor loss, no matter what you do. There are only a few very specific exceptions from this rule, like if you previously vowed to never do that thing (thus still doing it is a violation of Sincerity). Also ,as a side note, if you think you are in the right, but later it turns out that you weren't, then the Honor loss happens when this is revealed - and you are essentially honor-bound to retaliate against whoever did the revelation and whoever led you to being wrong (this is usually the point where things become interesting).

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If you do the objectively right thing, then it cannot be a Honor loss, no matter what you do. There are only a few very specific exceptions from this rule, like if you previously vowed to never do that thing (thus still doing it is a violation of Sincerity). Also ,as a side note, if you think you are in the right, but later it turns out that you weren't, then the Honor loss happens when this is revealed - and you are essentially honor-bound to retaliate against whoever did the revelation and whoever led you to being wrong (this is usually the point where things become interesting).

And if memory serves, NOT retaliating is another honor loss

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Some schools (Lions Shadow) say SPECIFICALLY that it is not. Others, however, are not so clear cut. I think that's something that needs clearer definition in the future.

As a general thing, you would think the 'average ' Lion concerned with honor and bushido wouldn't even think of poison. A Scorpion however....

Right, but then a Scorpion is generally lower honor than a Lion, because they behave more dishonorably in this absolute scale.

I would vote that you eliminate the mechanical effect (Not sure how you reconcile this with say the Matsu or Utaku Schools that gets bonuses to everything based on honor, but I think that is a separate issue), and instead push it more into the RP for the consequences. I would say a "kharma" system would be more valid than the honor system. But make the "good deeds" and "bad deeds" nebulous.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If you do the objectively right thing, then it cannot be a Honor loss, no matter what you do. There are only a few very specific exceptions from this rule, like if you previously vowed to never do that thing (thus still doing it is a violation of Sincerity). Also ,as a side note, if you think you are in the right, but later it turns out that you weren't, then the Honor loss happens when this is revealed - and you are essentially honor-bound to retaliate against whoever did the revelation and whoever led you to being wrong (this is usually the point where things become interesting).

But what is objectively the right thing? Lets go into the theoreticals! Your Daimyo orders you to kill a child. Lets assume you don't think he is completely nuts. It is your duty to obey your Daimyo (Honesty or Duty), but in general it is considered bad to kill a child (Compassion). Either choice results in an honor loss (Disobey vs Kill).

I don't really know what point I'm trying to argue at this point, other than I think that while the concepts of L5R Honor is a good thing for the setting, the mechanical implementation in R&K isn't. In that it isn't fun, given the sorts of people who play table top RPGs.

Just now, Mirith said:

Right, but then a Scorpion is generally lower honor than a Lion, because they behave more dishonorably in this absolute scale.

I would vote that you eliminate the mechanical effect (Not sure how you reconcile this with say the Matsu or Utaku Schools that gets bonuses to everything based on honor, but I think that is a separate issue), and instead push it more into the RP for the consequences. I would say a "kharma" system would be more valid than the honor system. But make the "good deeds" and "bad deeds" nebulous.

But what is objectively the right thing? Lets go into the theoreticals! Your Daimyo orders you to kill a child. Lets assume you don't think he is completely nuts. It is your duty to obey your Daimyo (Honesty or Duty), but in general it is considered bad to kill a child (Compassion). Either choice results in an honor loss (Disobey vs Kill).

Yikes, that's a good one. Especially since disobedience to your lord can have such immediate negative consequences.

They might need to set a definitive hierarchy of virtues.

I think settingwise duty trumps the others.

1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Yikes, that's a good one. Especially since disobedience to your lord can have such immediate negative consequences.

They might need to set a definitive hierarchy of virtues.

I think settingwise duty trumps the others.

Right, you could make the argument of "It is my duty to obey my lord, and it is my lord's honor who takes a hit for killing a child". But disagreeing with your Lord when he is "Bad" can also be an honorable thing. But I think that involve seppuku, which isn't much fun for the player.

Just now, Mirith said:

Right, you could make the argument of "It is my duty to obey my lord, and it is my lord's honor who takes a hit for killing a child". But disagreeing with your Lord when he is "Bad" can also be an honorable thing. But I think that involve seppuku, which isn't much fun for the player.

Agreed, and I try and avoid those types of 'no win' scenarios.

but if a players WANTS to sac himself/herself for honor. I usually let that happen.

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Agreed, and I try and avoid those types of 'no win' scenarios.

but if a players WANTS to sac himself/herself for honor. I usually let that happen.

Sure. But depending on the player, we have gotten into some of these no-win scenarios by accident, and it can upset a player, since they feel required to behave a way contrary to their nature. It is why I think it is can be generally unfun.

2 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Sure. But depending on the player, we have gotten into some of these no-win scenarios by accident, and it can upset a player, since they feel required to behave a way contrary to their nature. It is why I think it is can be generally unfun.

It's a setting danger to be sure.

I'm just not sure how you'd 'fix' it without neutering the setting.

14 minutes ago, Mirith said:

But what is objectively the right thing? Lets go into the theoreticals! Your Daimyo orders you to kill a child. Lets assume you don't think he is completely nuts. It is your duty to obey your Daimyo (Honesty or Duty), but in general it is considered bad to kill a child (Compassion). Either choice results in an honor loss (Disobey vs Kill).

Disobeying is not wrong here. If your daimyo orders you to kill a child, then he is nuts. At which point the real question should be whether your daimyo just has a very bad day (in which case you must make a reminder for him) or he is actively straying from the "right" ways of thinking (in which case more drastic measures are required). It is also worth noting that your daimyo asking you to do such thing paints a rather poor picture of you either way, similarly to the "delayed" poisoning incident.

Honor in Rokugan is fairly simple on the surface, but runs insanely deep. The difference between a honorable and a dishonorable person is that the former takes the dive.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Disobeying is not wrong here. If your daimyo orders you to kill a child, then he is nuts. At which point the real question should be whether your daimyo just has a very bad day (in which case you must make a reminder for him) or he is actively straying from the "right" ways of thinking (in which case more drastic measures are required). It is also worth noting that your daimyo asking you to do such thing paints a rather poor picture of you either way, similarly to the "delayed" poisoning incident.

Honor in Rokugan is fairly simple on the surface, but runs insanely deep. The difference between a honorable and a dishonorable person is that the former takes the dive.

Of course the type of daimyo to order you to kill an innocent, is probably not going to give you a chance at 'more drastic measures ' if you disobey.

7 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Of course the type of daimyo to order you to kill an innocent, is probably not going to give you a chance at 'more drastic measures ' if you disobey.

If things really go that far, then the drastic measure is taking your lord's head on the spot and then (most likely) die in the ensuing combat with his/her other retainers, so nobody is going to give a chance to anyone here. It is essentially Reincarnation-O-Clock for everyone involved.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If things really go that far, then the drastic measure is taking your lord's head on the spot and then (most likely) die in the ensuing combat with his/her other retainers, so nobody is going to give a chance to anyone here. It is essentially Reincarnation-O-Clock for everyone involved.

I prefer Beer-O-Clock myself.

I'm of the school of thought that says that an RPG should have a mechanical representation of anything that's important in its world. If honour is important (and in L5R it definitely is) then there needs to be a stat for it, and it needs to interact with other game mechanics.

Difficult questions of honour, like the one that Mirith mentions, are really fun to roleplay. They lead to interesting scenes and great character choices (even if the characters die in the process.) There should definitely be mechanics to support such choices. To me, moments like this are what makes L5R unique and different from other RPGs. We leave them out at our peril.

Roll and keep or I just adapt it to forth edition

I have a half-way complete version of honour using the Pendragon system. I'll look out the link to it tomorrow.

5 hours ago, Mirith said:

What if you poison them because they are actively bad to you and you Clan? That is still an Honor loss. Or is it only an honor loss if you do it for personal gain?

5 hours ago, Mirith said:

But what is objectively the right thing? Lets go into the theoreticals! Your Daimyo orders you to kill a child. Lets assume you don't think he is completely nuts. It is your duty to obey your Daimyo (Honesty or Duty), but in general it is considered bad to kill a child (Compassion). Either choice results in an honor loss (Disobey vs Kill).

The key to both of these scenarios is that, because the different tenets of Bushido can come into conflict with one another, you can both gain and lose Honor at the same time.

Poisoning an enemy who is a problem for your clan: you're protecting your lord's interests at risk to yourself (Honor gain), but doing so with despicable methods (Honor loss). Whether the net result is a gain, a loss, or a wash depends on circumstances, including how honorable you are; the chart is deliberately designed such that a low-Honor character gains more from helping her clan than she loses for being scuzzy, while an upstanding Shinjo or Akodo or Doji takes a big hit because really, she ought to have been able to solve her problems in a better way.

Daimyo orders you to kill a child: Duty says obey, Compassion says spare the kid. Whatever choice you make will cause you to lose Honor on one front and gain on the other; the net result might be a gain if the underlying precepts of Bushido support your decision, despite one tenet or the other complicating the picture.

I consider this to be a profound feature of the system, not a bug. It isn't a simplistic, video-game kind of thing where there are Obviously Good Choices and Obviously Evil Choices -- nor is it the cheap grimdark setup where you have only bad choices, the end, screw you. Not only are there complex situations, but sometimes different values just can't be reconciled and you have to prioritize one over the other.

2 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I'm of the school of thought that says that an RPG should have a mechanical representation of anything that's important in its world. If honour is important (and in L5R it definitely is) then there needs to be a stat for it, and it needs to interact with other game mechanics.

When it's something that touches on the actual metaphysics/cosmology of the world, definitely. I mean, I can contrast it with Glory: in theory how famous you are is supposed to have an effect on social dynamics, but in practice the only mechanical effect it has 99% of the time is determining how easy it is for people to recognize you. Which means that really, Glory is irrelevant to both the mechanics and the society, unless you actively work to make use of it in your game. Honor, on the other hand, is pervasive through many aspects of the system. And while yes, it's true that the system doesn't give you a mechanical reward for being low Honor the way it does for being high (Fear effects, Honor rerolls, various school techniques, etc) . . . to me, that makes perfect sense, and is not a problem. The society is one that's actively built around rewarding and leveraging the spiritual strength that comes with following Bushido. The benefit for letting it slide is, you have a lot more options available to you when you encounter a problem. And when you encounter a problem for which there really is no honorable solution -- well, that's an interesting story! My PC in our first campaign nearly lost three ranks of Honor in a single afternoon because (we thought) that was the only way to do what was necessary. Having a mechanical yardstick for just how awful our plan was drove it home in a way that a purely fluff-based "you shouldn't ambush somebody, murder them in cold blood, and then desecrate their corpse" approach could never really do.

I really wish they would announce more info for Genysis. Mostly what will be the alternate settings. Will we just get the standard generic Sci-Fi, Horror, Weird War, Super Hero, and Fantasy settings? Will they go into more detail and make Runebound and/or L5Rr their fantasy setting?

26 minutes ago, TechnoGolem said:

I really wish they would announce more info for Genysis. Mostly what will be the alternate settings. Will we just get the standard generic Sci-Fi, Horror, Weird War, Super Hero, and Fantasy settings? Will they go into more detail and make Runebound and/or L5Rr their fantasy setting?

I think Runebound is more likely for GeneSys than L5R.

L5R has too much 'special flavor ' for a generic system. NDS? Probably. But GenySys? Not likely.

I 100% believe that they will splat L5R into Genesys. Anything else doesn't make fiscal sense.