After completing the core campaign as an imperial player, it was my turn to be the rebel scums. I did that going through Return to Hoth. I chose Gaarkhan, because he seems like a must, Davith and Gideon because the seemed fun to play and finally Mak because he seems fun and very good. I play this with my girlfriend as the imperial player, and while she's not the most tactical person, she wants it to be competitive without we start using cheap tactics.

After 5 missions she's doesn't enjoy the side missions we draw, because I breeze through them, I also win most of the story missions, at that point I thought she complained a little too much, and told her it was suppose to be a thematic game, the imperial player is more of a GM, and there will be hard losses in Inperial Assault.

We we come to the mission the last line, and I was like fine, let's go all out, *SPOILERS*

so I told her let's do this missions without rounds, she can get 15 points for each wave, no rounds, so I had to kill all imperial units to win, she still had to wound all my heroes or defeat the wall. I deployed Luke so she had 16 threat to begin with.

At this point, Gideon had Hammer & anvil, Fearless Leader ( his side mission was also really easy) and Masterstroke equipped with Pulse Cannon. Gaarkhan had brutality and Rampage equipped with Force Pike. Mak had No Escape Jeswandi training and execute equipped with a Valken. Davith Fallen Leaf, Fell Swoop, land covert operative, equipped with his lightsaber.

Luke died pretty fast but killed a storm trooper and did some damage on the tank. Davith and Gaarkhan took out the first tank and most of the front troopers, while Gideon and Mak defended 1 flank. She got the AT-ST, and got the first deployment point active pretty fast, because she focused on that, I had to retreat with Davith and Gaarkhan. At the second deployment point, the AT-ST had only 3 health left, but she used the option to recover 6 health for the AT-ST, she then had an elite Officer and IG-88 at that wave. Davith and Gaarkhan focused on IG-88, Gaarkhan ended up getting wounded, (he is still really effective in that condition.

The imperial player had subversive tactics and kept straining Gideon to hold him down (which was smart IMO). Around he last deployment I rest with Gideon, and the imperial wants to interrupt using the AT-ST, but had to cancel that since Gideon was adjacent, so an attack was not possible. Masterstroke 2x on Mac, combined with Hammer and Anvil, again on Mac, means anything that gets targeted is pretty much death. If that's not the case, Mak can finish it it with No escape, even an ATST.

TLDR;

My point is Gaarkhan alone can easily take out a group of low health activations, Gideon+ Mak can kill anything they'll like, in 1 activation, I can't even imagine the strength of the team, if Fenn was the 4th slot!

Are rebels in the last 4 missions so powerful it unbalance the game?

Return to Hoth is rebel-favored, in addition to Gideon, Fenn, and Diala being the best core heroes. With enough missions won the rebels have enough credits to have firepower for anything with any heroes.

13 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Return to Hoth is rebel-favored, in addition to Gideon, Fenn, and Diala being the best core heroes. With enough missions won the rebels have enough credits to have firepower for anything with any heroes.

Yeah, it just seems like with the right combination of characters and weapons, the empire don't have a chance, no matter what.

We just finished out run of Jabba's Realm with Jabba coming out on top. I was playing Subversive Tactics (only read about how it's supposed to be the least fun one a few missions in), they had Mak, Gideon, Fenn and Onar.

The heroes were definitely very strong in the end. Mak, for example, had a very classic turn of simply killing two eJets and he even removed a bit of strain in the process. A few turns later, he used a free move to get LOS to Jabba, then took him out in one No Escape attack with about 4 damage to spare. Gideon's turns, likewise, would often see 2-3 of my medium strength figures just dissapear, at practically no cost to them and with Gideon moving forward a bit. Fenn would often combine blasts to decimate my weaker troops. Onar&C-3PO combined to make it exceedingly difficult to put the hurt on the heroes and Onar cleaned up when it was needed.

But the thing is, my forces were very strong as well. I had handing out a bit of strain here and there, which made my attacks stronger. They couldn't rest as easily, I had some hidden (and some on-the-table) tricks up my sleeve. They definitely made some errors (all 4 ended up dead or wounded in the Rancor Pit by the end of turn 4, so I definitely think they should have used a bit more time resting up), the mission seems quite difficult, but it was hard fought and very powerful on both sides.

As I've said in other topics, heroes are really strong at taking out villains in the late game. Terro came out in two previous games and ended up making a grand total of 1 attack. Jabba was incapacitated in one action. The Rancor only took a minor shot (with the worst possible die roll on their side and the best on mine) and still took 2 damage and became bleeding. As the Imp, you need to adjust your strategy in the late game or you won't stand a chance. But if you do, I think it is possible.

PS: I focused my first turn on C-3PO and took him out with the Trandoshan+Surgical Strike. I think it ended up making a huge difference during the later turns, as his focus and additional evades really add up.

Well yeah- a team of Mak, Gideon, and Fenn (and Onar) against ST deck. You guys are cutthroat.

10 hours ago, burek277 said:

We just finished out run of Jabba's Realm with Jabba coming out on top. I was playing Subversive Tactics (only read about how it's supposed to be the least fun one a few missions in), they had Mak, Gideon, Fenn and Onar.

The heroes were definitely very strong in the end. Mak, for example, had a very classic turn of simply killing two eJets and he even removed a bit of strain in the process. A few turns later, he used a free move to get LOS to Jabba, then took him out in one No Escape attack with about 4 damage to spare. Gideon's turns, likewise, would often see 2-3 of my medium strength figures just dissapear, at practically no cost to them and with Gideon moving forward a bit. Fenn would often combine blasts to decimate my weaker troops. Onar&C-3PO combined to make it exceedingly difficult to put the hurt on the heroes and Onar cleaned up when it was needed.

But the thing is, my forces were very strong as well. I had handing out a bit of strain here and there, which made my attacks stronger. They couldn't rest as easily, I had some hidden (and some on-the-table) tricks up my sleeve. They definitely made some errors (all 4 ended up dead or wounded in the Rancor Pit by the end of turn 4, so I definitely think they should have used a bit more time resting up), the mission seems quite difficult, but it was hard fought and very powerful on both sides.

As I've said in other topics, heroes are really strong at taking out villains in the late game. Terro came out in two previous games and ended up making a grand total of 1 attack. Jabba was incapacitated in one action. The Rancor only took a minor shot (with the worst possible die roll on their side and the best on mine) and still took 2 damage and became bleeding. As the Imp, you need to adjust your strategy in the late game or you won't stand a chance. But if you do, I think it is possible.

PS: I focused my first turn on C-3PO and took him out with the Trandoshan+Surgical Strike. I think it ended up making a huge difference during the later turns, as his focus and additional evades really add up.

Good post! Exactly my point!

in the beginning it's hard for the rebels, and for some units like a E-WEB I consider OP in first 2 ( or more) missions. But end game is just not as fun or satisfying, when you can almost clear the board in 1 round. I'll try 1 more campaign as the imperial player, and if end game is as bad, house rules will come in play to even the odds. I'm considering starting with more threat, and deploying a unique for free.

1st priority for me is having fun matches, that a close until the last die is rolled.

One thing- Rebels do get better as the campaign goes on (obviously) but if they're clearing the board in a single turn and still staying on objective, something's probably wrong. Perhaps you're playing too many rStormtroopers and weak swarm units when facing a team of Fenn and Vinto, for example (who would utterly obliterate your smaller units). As the Empire, you also have to make some pretty big strategic decisions. Thinking about what your rebels are capable of and trying to counter that is just as important as trying to play synergistically with your class deck.

It depends on the class deck and the heroes abilities a bit, too. I just finished a campaign playing against Hutt Mercenaries, and for a while it was looking a little dicey for the rebels since that class deck was able to put out so much damage. So instead of trying to stand directly against that imperial onslaught I built all four heroes (Biv, Onar, Shyla, Vinto) with a single goal - do as much damage as you can, as quickly as possible.

What followed was a bit of a weird campaign. I'm not sure if there were more than one or two missions where the imperials weren't completely wiped off the board a few times - but it still wasn't a landslide. Because when the imperial did deploy his figures (which he often timed to coincide with mission events that put more figures on the board) he could still do enough damage to pretty much focus down a hero every turn. The Rebels took it in the end, but it could have gone either way. I will say, though, that this see-saw play-style probably detracted from the campaign experience. I'd rather a more defensive-minded imperial deck just so that there could be more units on the board.

Of course the heroes and synergy plays a big part, my experience was with Gaarkhan, Mak, Gideon, Davith. The Mak + Gideon combination is nasty! As I said before I found Davith kind of useless in combat, can't imagine Fenn in that team, and his synergy with Gideon.

4 hours ago, ManateeX said:

It depends on the class deck and the heroes abilities a bit, too. I just finished a campaign playing against Hutt Mercenaries, and for a while it was looking a little dicey for the rebels since that class deck was able to put out so much damage. So instead of trying to stand directly against that imperial onslaught I built all four heroes (Biv, Onar, Shyla, Vinto) with a single goal - do as much damage as you can, as quickly as possible.

What followed was a bit of a weird campaign. I'm not sure if there were more than one or two missions where the imperials weren't completely wiped off the board a few times - but it still wasn't a landslide. Because when the imperial did deploy his figures (which he often timed to coincide with mission events that put more figures on the board) he could still do enough damage to pretty much focus down a hero every turn. The Rebels took it in the end, but it could have gone either way. I will say, though, that this see-saw play-style probably detracted from the campaign experience. I'd rather a more defensive-minded imperial deck just so that there could be more units on the board.

Yeah I would also prefer a consistent defense, instead of coming in waves, because the empire got wiped. It's never fun with a clean board. Even more anticlimactic, I've experienced an imperial victory with no units, but because the rebels failed a surge test in the last round.

12 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

One thing- Rebels do get better as the campaign goes on (obviously) but if they're clearing the board in a single turn and still staying on objective, something's probably wrong. Perhaps you're playing too many rStormtroopers and weak swarm units when facing a team of Fenn and Vinto, for example (who would utterly obliterate your smaller units). As the Empire, you also have to make some pretty big strategic decisions. Thinking about what your rebels are capable of and trying to counter that is just as important as trying to play synergistically with your class deck.

I guess I still don't know hot to post to the BGG forum, I made a lengthy post about this yesterday and can't find it anywhere now. This is a very important point but I think it's quite difficult to get right without significant experience with the game. You're basically looking to field units that will make the Rebels waste extra actions on killing them. IE if the heroes are doing 2-3 damage per average attack, you're looking to field miniatures with around 4 health. As they get better and do around 4 damage per attack, you're looking to units with 5-6 or 9-10 health.

During the finale, I had to try and play around a beefed-up Fenn and Mak with Gideon backup, so I aimed for eStormtroopers and rProbes. Sure, Mak will take them out with one shot, but can't utilize No Escape efficiently. Fenn can't really kill them with one shot or with one round of blasts (and the Bandstand really helped here). It worked well enough, but it took me several missions to get the hang of it. And with them buying equipment and abilities all the time, it can be hard to keep up.

Edit: Re-cutthroat. I agree, it became really strong towards the end. I wouldn't have taken ST, but I only read about how it's supposed to be OP 3 missions in. The Rebels really enjoyed Fenn during our first campaign and one really likes to play a tactician, and Gideon was a logical choice - also read about how they're OP only after we had begun. I will be playing the Rebels in our next campaign (Hoth) and we will try to go for a slightly more relaxed combination.

15 hours ago, DKNecrosis said:

Of course the heroes and synergy plays a big part, my experience was with Gaarkhan, Mak, Gideon, Davith. The Mak + Gideon combination is nasty! As I said before I found Davith kind of useless in combat, can't imagine Fenn in that team, and his synergy with Gideon.

Davith is my favorite hero (both for ability and lore reasons), so it makes me a little sad to agree somewhat. My current campaign (late-stage) includes a Rampage-Double Vibrosword-Unstoppable Gaarkhan (who does tons of unblockable damage to clustered foes), a Point Blank Shot-Plasma Cell-Sporting Pistol-wielding Verena with 6 endurance who roasts people alive, and a highly-mobile Shyla with Full Sweep and the Electrostaff (for up to 7 free Cleave per activation). I feel like Davith excels at being a mobile combat fighter versus low-to-mid-range health targets, but given our particular group make-up and weapon choices, those types of targets don't tend to last beyond 2 activations.

I've made the most of it being a glorified objective runner and/or by outdistancing my squad mates for kills (though, being a white die hero with relatively low health, that always works out well... ). And occasionally everyone else is so strained out that they need time to rest before they can go (well, except Shyla... seems she's never strained out). But it definitely makes combat more of a take-turns exercise. Swap in any of those for your favorite hard-hitting ranged hero (like Fenn or Mak), and I imagine it'd be much the same. It does seem to be a problem that amplifies in the late-campaign. In the early campaign (especially that first mission of the long campaigns), I always feel like I want 4 damage dealers. But maybe that's just me.

On the flip side, the group as a whole kills things so quickly (especially when we take Jedi Luke as an ally, which we always do, even though its overkill, because the IP needs that bonus 12 threat to be competitive) that Davith is almost never attacked, much less wounded, which solves one of his major weaknesses.

1 hour ago, Rythbryt said:

Davith is my favorite hero (both for ability and lore reasons), so it makes me a little sad to agree somewhat. My current campaign (late-stage) includes a Rampage-Double Vibrosword-Unstoppable Gaarkhan (who does tons of unblockable damage to clustered foes), a Point Blank Shot-Plasma Cell-Sporting Pistol-wielding Verena with 6 endurance who roasts people alive, and a highly-mobile Shyla with Full Sweep and the Electrostaff (for up to 7 free Cleave per activation). I feel like Davith excels at being a mobile combat fighter versus low-to-mid-range health targets, but given our particular group make-up and weapon choices, those types of targets don't tend to last beyond 2 activations.

I've made the most of it being a glorified objective runner and/or by outdistancing my squad mates for kills (though, being a white die hero with relatively low health, that always works out well... ). And occasionally everyone else is so strained out that they need time to rest before they can go (well, except Shyla... seems she's never strained out). But it definitely makes combat more of a take-turns exercise. Swap in any of those for your favorite hard-hitting ranged hero (like Fenn or Mak), and I imagine it'd be much the same. It does seem to be a problem that amplifies in the late-campaign. In the early campaign (especially that first mission of the long campaigns), I always feel like I want 4 damage dealers. But maybe that's just me.

On the flip side, the group as a whole kills things so quickly (especially when we take Jedi Luke as an ally, which we always do, even though its overkill, because the IP needs that bonus 12 threat to be competitive) that Davith is almost never attacked, much less wounded, which solves one of his major weaknesses.

It sounds like your team is a little crowded with damage dealers. With 3 other damage dealers on the team, 2 of them melee and the other close-ranged, Davith probably isn't getting the item investment he would need to be successful...

1 hour ago, Stompburger said:

It sounds like your team is a little crowded with damage dealers. With 3 other damage dealers on the team, 2 of them melee and the other close-ranged, Davith probably isn't getting the item investment he would need to be successful...

That's a good thought, but fortunately not the case in this particular campaign. We pulled both Generous Donations and the new Rancor egg mission as sides, so we got a pretty good windfall of credits mid-campaign. Davith has a Tier III Force Pike with High-Impact Guard, so I don't think he can blame his gear. If anything, I'd say Gaarkhan is probably the most undergeared with his Double-Vibrosword and Energized Hilt. But he's done upwards of 15 unblockable damage in an activation with two attacks, Brutal Cleave, and rampage in that set-up, so who am I to point figures...

But we are crowded with damage dealers, hence the scarcity of grunts to chew up by the time we get to activation #3 or 4. Some combination of Shyla throwing around up to Cleave 7 each activation, Gaarkhan's splash damage from Rampage + Double Vibrosword, Verena taking extra attacks with Close Quarters, or Davith attacking three times with Fell Swoop is usually enough to thin the herd. I do feel like Davith probably has the least upside to his attacks of the four (Gaarkhan is like a fireball, and Verena's ceiling is higher), hence why he usually goes later. He's at least got some nice abilities for objective running (as does Shyla), so he's not completely useless later in the round. First world problems, I guess.

Anyway, all that to say, I do feel like it's much easier for the heroes to become op in the late game than the IP. There are some very good attachments for imperial units that improve their survivability or their damage, but not usually both. And they're so spread out among the class decks that it's hard to concentrate them--certainly not to the extent that the heroes can synergize their weapons, armor, and xp abilities. Experienced rebel players also have a pretty good feel for what hero combos work well, and which ones don't, so that's an advantage as well (since the IP generally only gets to customize open groups for synergies, and even then is limited by threat in what he/she can actually deploy).

But then, the rebels have won every major film encounter where they actually dug in and tried (so not Hoth ). So maybe that's an unspoken script in the campaign's DNA.

3 hours ago, Rythbryt said:

Davith has a Tier III Force Pike with High-Impact Guard, so I don't think he can blame his gear.

The Force Pike with High-Impact Guard is pretty solid, but I have to guess that you'd see better results for clearing large groups with him if you gave him something with cleave to take advantage of that extra attack. Falling Leaf lets him do pretty well with a 2-die weapon, so maybe something like the BD-1 or Double VibroSword would be better? Or the Electrostaff for free cleaves?

13 hours ago, Stompburger said:

The Force Pike with High-Impact Guard is pretty solid, but I have to guess that you'd see better results for clearing large groups with him if you gave him something with cleave to take advantage of that extra attack. Falling Leaf lets him do pretty well with a 2-die weapon, so maybe something like the BD-1 or Double VibroSword would be better? Or the Electrostaff for free cleaves?

Those are definitely great choices. Our group is running 3.5 melee heroes (Shyla, Gaarkhan, Verena), so there's a bit of a self-inflicted squeeze on melee weapons. Two of those are already taken by other squad mates (Double-Vibro and Electro), which is probably why Davith falls somewhat on the damage pecking order.

I like the BD-1, just not for Davith (well, not for a "Fell Swoop" Davith), since landing a double surge (or even a single surge if he's already Hidden) is a dicey proposition, even with "Falling Leaf." The Force Pike (with or without "Falling Leaf") is a lot more solid in that respect, plus it has Reach which really is a godsend most of the time. I did have the Weighted Head instead of the High-Impact Guard for a little bit to get some Cleave in, but given how much splash damage and cleave we already had, I rarely used the Cleave surges. With a different group comp, I might return to that.

1 hour ago, Rythbryt said:

Those are definitely great choices. Our group is running 3.5 melee heroes (Shyla, Gaarkhan, Verena),

Why would you do that to yourselves?

1 hour ago, subtrendy2 said:

Why would you do that to yourselves?

Well, partly because all those melee heroes are cool. Partly to test and see if there really were enough melee weapons to go around now (since Jabba's Realm added a few). FWIW, I think there are--we aren't even tapping the Gaffi Stick or Ancient Lightsaber.

Yes finale heroes are OP, but so is the Imperial player. Sounds like your Overlord didn't save up agenda cards like she's supposed to. I also have a feeling her XP choices were either suboptimal or not being used every turn based on how little you mention them. Imp class cards can be just as devastating as Rebel abilities if you pick the right ones and remember to use them every turn. I've noticed that when I take a break from playing Imp it's easy for inexperienced imp players to forget to use their upgrades because they're not used to having to keep track of everything all the time. I've also heard that ST, while effective at making noobs miserable, isn't actually that powerful against certain heroes and players who know how to beat it.

I've overlorded 3 campaigns, always with 4-5 players and never felt like the heroes power level had gotten away from me in the final mission, I was always able to handle them so long as I planned my strategy around the hidden events and optimized my upgrade choices and usage.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

I've overlorded 3 campaigns, always with 4-5 players and never felt like the heroes power level had gotten away from me in the final mission, I was always able to handle them so long as I planned my strategy around the hidden events and optimized my upgrade choices and usage.

I've always struggled with putting my agenda deck together as the IP. At first it felt like there weren't enough choices, now there are tons to choose from. Do you have any favorite unit/agenda/class deck pairings that have worked well for you?

2 minutes ago, Rythbryt said:

I've always struggled with putting my agenda deck together as the IP. At first it felt like there weren't enough choices, now there are tons to choose from. Do you have any favorite unit/agenda/class deck pairings that have worked well for you?

This. Agenda feels like the weakest part of the game for me. I've got all the figures from the first four waves, and the number of agenda decks has become overwhelming, to the point that I usually just pick based on what villains I know I want to bring into that campaign due to theme. So many of the agenda cards are so situational that it's easy to buy something and never use it, and the ones that aren't feel like they make the game not fun for at least one of the Rebels.

For the Right Price, Agents of the Empire, and if playing Troopers (whatever the class deck, but especially Military Might) - Imperial Discipline, if playing Inspiring Leadership - Imperial Security Bureau, then sprinkle with others depending on which campaign and which class deck.

1 hour ago, Rythbryt said:

I've always struggled with putting my agenda deck together as the IP. At first it felt like there weren't enough choices, now there are tons to choose from. Do you have any favorite unit/agenda/class deck pairings that have worked well for you?

I usually take a few sets for villains I want to get.

Another good resource is this:

I find deplete cards to be far better than anything else, more bang for your buck. There are some really good ones in there, too- not a bad way to build an agenda set.

Also don't forget that as the imperial player you'll be matching wits against four other players, rather than just the one person you'd face in skirmish.

On 7/1/2017 at 0:14 AM, FearofaBlankPlanet said:

Also don't forget that as the imperial player you'll be matching wits against four other players, rather than just the one person you'd face in skirmish.

True, though that may not always be a strength for them.

I like to sometimes get into my Rebel players heads- not necessarily giving them advice or leading them any either way, but just trying to make them turn on each other a bit. It's fun to watch them bicker