Hello,

I've learned a couple of things about this from the forums but now one reply in the unofficial FAQ ruined everything.

A few exaples of what we know:

• a hero can't use Heavy Cloak to cancel Fire Breath, unless he is the target(the first hero attacked)
• Prey on the Weak gains it's power on the target with low might, and the rest affected by the Fire Breath can't do anything about the +1 damage(there is only one damage number)

And now there is this thing. Runic Sorcery - we played one campaign that she had the skill and Lightning Strike, so she could use Runic Sorcery and than the surge on Blast to spread the condition. But the Blast reads: This attack affects all figures adjacent to the target space.

And there are these answers: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/943240/can-giants-sweep-apply-stun

After all dices are rolled its became that blast will deal at least 1 damage to all Goblins (after armor applyed) and Landrec decides uses both Sunburst abilities (Stun and +2 [heart]).
- Are all Goblins will get +2 damage?
Yes
- Are all Goblins will be stunned ?
Yes

-while the Stun abbility reads: If this attack deals at least 1 (after the defense roll), the target is Stunned

And https://boardgamegeek.com/article/11680012#11680012

Please help. I thought that with the new findings and precision in wording, the condition should clearly go only to the target. Or is there a difference between Runic Sorcery + (surge)Blast and (surge)Condition + (surge)Blast? Can you spread the Stun with the Sweep in that case? Or is the Blast somehow exceptional?

I'm really trying to bring the right answers to our group because we take it pretty seriously xD.. and these little details can change much, so I read forums a lot and then crash into this... bummer

Thanks a lot

1. Surge abilities modify the attack as a whole. All figures affected by the attack are affected by added surge effects.

2. Unfortunately the wording of the Stun surge ability on monster cards is not precise. As confirmed by the uFAQs you quoted (and others) Stun can be applied to all figures affected (not necessarily targeted) by the attack.

3. Runic Sorcery is different as the condition is not applied by a surge effect and does not (necessarily) modify the attack as a whole. I am not aware of any specific uFAQ on Runic Sorcery and attacks affecting multiple figures like we have for Stun. I assume from the wording of the effect that conditions from Runic Sorcery may be applied to the target of the attack only. I think that in multi-target attacks , the condition is applied to all targets. I am curious to hear other opinions, though.

Interestingly, the condition is applied after damage is dealt. This means that Doom (which triggers from damage suffered, after damage is dealt) would already trigger during the Runic Sorcery attack.

1 hour ago, Alarin said:

Please help. I thought that with the new findings and precision in wording, the condition should clearly go only to the target. Or is there a difference between Runic Sorcery + (surge)Blast and (surge)Condition + (surge)Blast? Can you spread the Stun with the Sweep in that case? Or is the Blast somehow exceptional?

I'm really trying to bring the right answers to our group because we take it pretty seriously xD.. and these little details can change much, so I read forums a lot and then crash into this... bummer

The wording is not precise, as Sadgit mentioned. By my understanding of the rules, if an attack applies a condition after damage is dealt, as in the case of Runic Sorcery or surges that inflict conditions, the conditions are applied to all affected figures, not just the targeted ones. This in spite of the wording on the cards, sadly.

11 minutes ago, Sadgit said:

Interestingly, the condition is applied after damage is dealt. This means that Doom (which triggers from damage suffered, after damage is dealt) would already trigger in the Runic Sorcery attack.

In both Runic Sorcery and surge-based conditions, the condition is applied after rolling defense dice and damage is calculated, but before damage is actually dealt (again, in spite of the wording). Thus Doom adds bonus damage on the same attack that it is applied on. (But confusingly, this is not the case for Weakened applying -1 shield, because damage has already been calculated.

Thank you very much! Ok, from now on, we will work with the 'surge conditions' this way.

Yes I also think the Doomed should trigger.

And what about Contaminated infector OL Card + Fire Breath/Sweep/Leap Attack? Could we combine those?

: Infect your target (it's just an alternative to Poison/Disease abilities right? )

1 hour ago, Charmy said:

In both Runic Sorcery and surge-based conditions, the condition is applied after rolling defense dice and damage is calculated, but before damage is actually dealt (again, in spite of the wording). Thus Doom adds bonus damage on the same attack that it is applied on. (But confusingly, this is not the case for Weakened applying -1 shield, because damage has already been calculated.

We agree on everything but the timing of surge-based conditions. At the moment there are arguments for and against the propagation of conditions from Runic Surge during attacks affecting multiple figures.
However, conditions from surge abilities are applied after damage is dealt (despite the wording) in step 5 of the attack. See this uFAQ .

Thank you for the feedback, but when I read it and then this: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/133355-shadow-of-nerekhall-civil-war-enc-2-playing-blood-rage-on-corrupted-leader/#comment-1433534 ,I'm not sure what the conclusion should be - maybe only that Conditions wording should be (apply to all affected instead of 'the target') and all other abilities using words affected and target, should be taken literally.. I guess

Yes that's the way I handle this, too.

Charmy's point is that Runic Sorcery might be another example (besides Poison and Stun surge effects) where wording is not precise and his group obviously agreed on that.

All (almost) "condition" surges use the text, "If this attack deals at least 1 damage (after the defense roll), the target is CONDITION ." I've asked about this in the past, and FFG clarified that the wording isn't perfect. It was compounded with another question, but the second part (underlined) of the question/answer is most relevant:

Rules Question:
The Skirmisher's "Carve a Path" (and some other abilities like the Giant's "Sweep" are attacks which "affect all spaces..." Do these attacks target any spaces, or are all spaces merely "affected" by the attack? (Does this mean the Giant can't stun with "Sweep," or is the use of "target" in the surge ability nonspecific?) Thanks!

Answer:
Those attacks remain consistent with the use of “target” versus “affect,” meaning that there is no target in an attack that simply affects figures. We’ve further discussed that any surge for conditions (Surge: Stun, Surge: Poison, etc.) used during such an attack should extend to those affected by an attack and not just the target. So in your example, though a Giant does not have a target when it sweeps, it may still Stun affected figures if it applies Stun to the attack.

This was tricky.

Thanks for playing!
Kara Centell-Dunk

This was from March 2015, FYI. My understanding therefore would be if Runic Sorcery were applied to a blasting attack, the condition would propagate to all affected figures (of course, assuming they're dealt a damage.)

17 hours ago, Alarin said:

And what about Contaminated infector OL Card + Fire Breath/Sweep/Leap Attack? Could we combine those?

: Infect your target (it's just an alternative to Poison/Disease abilities right? )

Infection tokens are not actually conditions. However, it seems to me that the word 'target' is used inconsistently when it comes to surge effects in general.

Based on the rulings we've seen so far from FFG, I think a general rule can be made that if a surge adds some type of effect (damage/conditions/moving/etc.) to an attack, and the attack hits multiple targets, then all figures are subject to this effect, whether they were targeted or simply affected.

Based on the rulings we've seen so far from FFG, I think a general rule can be made that if a surge adds some type of effect (damage/conditions/moving/etc.) to an attack, and the attack hits multiple targets, then all figures are subject to this effect, whether they were targeted or simply affected. -Charmy

I like where your head is at Charmy, and I mostly agree with you, but we have some problematic issues.

1) The Hexer. Hexing is most probably the closest thing to infection there is in terms of a game mechanic. Here we've got a response that seems to indicate that the hex does not spread to multiple monsters affected by an attack (the question is specifically about multiple targets) rather that only 1 monster within 3 spaces of a target may become hexed. That is, the realm of choice expands, but the amount of hexing does not.

2) Hellhounds. Don't get me wrong, I love them. But if we're willing to say that a master hellhound firebreathing on a bunch of heroes can use "hunt" on all of them? Well I'll love them even more (but also be a little concerned).

In short, I think we should be cautious about expanding this ruling to all scenarios. Note the "this was tricky" in the rules response even about conditions only... it's a delicate matter.

FFG has ruled that in Blast attacks only the target can be infected when using the surge effect from Contaminated.
Unfortunately, Nathan did not clarify if all targets can be infected during a multiple-target attack.

Ah, I stand corrected. I was hoping to apply a universal rule, but it appears it is not that simple and must instead be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

1 hour ago, Charmy said:

Ah, I stand corrected. I was hoping to apply a universal rule, but it appears it is not that simple and must instead be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

I feared that might be the conclusion. The other thing we can do is ask if there is a slightly less general rule "conditions yes, other things no" or possibly that with a few notable exceptions?

All very interesting, thank you all.

I would ask them directly then. Do they still reply?.. I haven't asked them anything yet. What e-mail address do you recommend? If you want to be in cc(copy) just send me your addresses too

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

thank you

Please post your question/answee when you get it.

still waiting for the reply...

I will post the questions at least:

And we got the reply, but there is also this:

Alwags get and ignore. I'd imagine there would have been a comment at some point if posting these on the forums was not OK. 100% certain the behavior is known.

@Alarin ...

I would be interested to see the response you received. Despite the "legal" formalities at the end, I have been assured by FFG personnel in the past that I could post their responses to this forum.

yes sure.. it's just I didn't expect that. Here it is then!

Thanks for posting this. I will put it into version 1.7 of the CRRG.

Unfortunately, Nathan did not mention what happens in attacks that target multiple figures. I guess one target has to be chosen to receive a condition from Runic Sorcery.

To be honest I was a little confused by the reply.

But it looks like the condition can be applied to all targets only via surge .

My interpretation is:

Condition from surge ability: Is propagated to all figures targeted or affected by an attack.
Condition from Runic Sorcery: Is applied only to the target of an attack targeting or affecting multiple figures.

It is not clear if during an attack targeting multiple figures (e.g. via Tarha's Heroic feat) the condition is applied to all targets or just one. I guess, it is the latter.