On 6/26/2017 at 8:13 PM, flightmaster101 said:

I gotta say I'm worried about power creep.

Double

On 6/26/2017 at 8:13 PM, flightmaster101 said:

I gotta say I'm worried about power creep.

and somehow triple

12 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

and somehow triple

I dunno. Just had a game where a 47 point Ravos and a 2x1 Ripper got their butts handed to them by two scions and 2 2x1 Derpwoods. Quality of play matters.

I have said this before, but I think the Uthuk came out as a faction at full power. Their archers aren’t going to make their current play style stronger. Just provide more options. Kethra is really underwhelming compared to Ravos in terms of raw damage, but provides options for more technical play. Meanwhile, Latari finally get a brawler, Daqan gets a unit that can almost auto-flank enemies or hunt archers with ease, and Waiqar get a different unit that looks to be very disruptive with its ability to flank by passing through terrain and units.

I don’t think this meta was meant to exist for 4-7 months. I think it was meant to exist for 1-2 and Legion screwed it.

21 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Quality of play matters.

You shouldn't have to vastly out play your opponent to have a chance. Uthuk dont turn well, but who cares if no one else can shift. Dropping a wound just for standing your(Ravos') fat @$$ next to a unit is way OP. Especially when that will auto kill a cav from any other faction.

21 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Kethra is really underwhelming compared to Ravos in terms of raw damage, but provides options for more technical play.

Then why would any list include her? Ravos is what makes the Uthuk broken. You can snipe commanders, you can chip spined threshers and flesh rippers, I dont have such and issue with them. There is no way Ravos should have brutal, precise 1 unique surge to wound everyone at range 1 and do an auto wound to anyone at range 1 AND be only 40 points. He is way under costed and it literally is breaking the game.

I could see take a wound to do a wound, or do a damage, but just throwing a wound is ridiculous. Unless they fix Ravos Uthuk are going to play out every faction in the game. This is readily apparent when we have average players switch to Uthuk and then dominate the league.

11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I don’t think this meta was meant to exist for 4-7 months. I think it was meant to exist for 1-2 and Legion screwed it.

I really dont see any other additions fixing it. Somebody at FFG loves Ravos and it shows. I would love to audit playtest results. I think Ravos in particular needs a royal guard style refit.

10 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

You shouldn't have to vastly out play your opponent to have a chance.

Funny. I said the same about Latari for a while until Uthuk came out. When they could tech against two clumsy armies, it was super easy for them to archer everyone to death. A tiny bit of scions were needed as well for the immobilize and stuns.

10 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

There is no way Ravos should have brutal, precise 1 unique surge to wound everyone at range 1 and do an auto wound to anyone at range 1 AND be only 40 points.

You do realize that a properly kitted Maegan actually does WAYYYY more damage per turn, possibly every turn, and at range? I’ve seen Ravos do a few wounds and 12 damage in a swing. I consistently see games with Maegan where she has turns (multiple) in excess of 20 damage. It’s crazy watching archer formations that aren’t in range of any enemy lose a full try. The only time Ravos hits that scale is when I dial in double panic against big 9-12 tray formations and pull a Betrayal.

He could maybe use a nerf to 6 wounds. That’s about it to me. Honestly, your problem isn’t Ravos. It is Insatiable Hunger.

2 minutes ago, Church14 said:

That’s about it to me. Honestly, your problem isn’t Ravos. It is Insatiable Hunger.

That and the auto wound.

2 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I said the same about Latari for a while until Uthuk came out

I actually dont disagree. To me it feels like this game is being designed very poorly. They should have dropped 4 factions at the start, and made sure they were balanced and had balanced releases. Now it feels like the Latari were powered to compete with Waqair and Daqan with expansions, and Uthuk are powered to keep up with all other factions and their expansions. With this staggered release schedule the recipe calls for power creep. There would be no other way to get people to buy Uthuk or Latari.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

I dunno. Just had a game where a 47 point Ravos and a 2x1 Ripper got their butts handed to them by two scions and 2 2x1 Derpwoods. Quality of play matters.

Assuming everything else was naked... 69 points for the Uthuk vs 62 points for you

You've got a list that's basically designed to chip away at the Uthuk. The only thing you really need to be afraid of is Ravos, while everything else that you have does damage because of low Uthuk armor or built in rerolls.

I honestly hope you would have won but saying that rock beats scissors isn't dealing with the problem that scissors is very good and you're talking about a very specific rock. 60 point match ups aren't what the game was designed around and an anecdotal sample size isn't large enough.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Funny. I said the same about Latari for a while until Uthuk came out. When they could tech against two clumsy armies, it was super easy for them to archer everyone to death. A tiny bit of scions were needed as well for the immobilize and stuns.

You do realize that a properly kitted Maegan actually does WAYYYY more damage per turn, possibly every turn, and at range? I’ve seen Ravos do a few wounds and 12 damage in a swing. I consistently see games with Maegan where she has turns (multiple) in excess of 20 damage. It’s crazy watching archer formations that aren’t in range of any enemy lose a full try. The only time Ravos hits that scale is when I dial in double panic against big 9-12 tray formations and pull a Betrayal.

He could maybe use a nerf to 6 wounds. That’s about it to me. Honestly, your problem isn’t Ravos. It is Insatiable Hunger.

Changing play styles a little to kill the Latari is a little different than changing how you compose your entire army to fight the Uthuk. Also a properly kitted Maegan is dependent on friendly {unstable} runes and your opponent having an army where he was more worried about Ravos than Maegan. I've never seen a Maegan hit for anywhere near 20 but we don't tend to run swarms of units where I play.

It sounds like an awfully specific combination of skill, luck, and stupidity/ignorance to get multiple 20 damage Maegan shots a round. Ravos doesn't require any of that to be effective and he's a bit more difficult to counter.

Edit: Forgot a word.

52 minutes ago, xelveki said:

It sounds like an awfully specific combination of skill, luck, and stupidity/ignorance to get multiple 20 damage Maegan shots a round. Ravos doesn't require any of that to be effective and he's a bit more difficult to counter.

This.

22 minutes ago, xelveki said:

Assuming everything else was naked... 69 points for the Uthuk vs 62 points for you

You've got a list that's basically designed to chip away at the Uthuk. The only thing you really need to be afraid of is Ravos, while everything else that you have does damage because of low Uthuk armor or built in rerolls.

I honestly hope you would have won but saying that rock beats scissors isn't dealing with the problem that scissors is very good and you're talking about a very specific rock. 60 point match ups aren't what the game was designed around and an anecdotal sample size isn't large enough.

Changing play styles a little to kill the Latari is a little different than changing how you compose your entire army to fight the Uthuk. Also a properly kitted Maegan is dependent on friendly {unstable} runes and your opponent having a where he was more worried about Ravos than Maegan. I've never seen a Maegan hit for anywhere near 20 but we don't tend to run swarms of units where I play.

It sounds like an awfully specific combination of skill, luck, and stupidity/ignorance to get multiple 20 damage Maegan shots a round. Ravos doesn't require any of that to be effective and he's a bit more difficult to counter.

Typically it involves a scion-centric turtle build with Maegan. You force your opponent to pack in the fight you. It is limited by Rune, yes, but you can bring cards to affect that. It is more limited by objective. If the objective is bounty, you can almost force this every game

You are offering an entire army built to fight a single hero

I’m on the fence on this. I’ve if late been in the uthuk is op field, until my last game when I switched up my build and pulled a win. I’ll need a few more games to really confirm what church is saying, but I’m starting to agree, uthuk seem superpowered now but those new units are really going to put them back at a reasonable balance.

I still don’t like Ravos and do feel like one of the designers has a hard on for uthuk, but he is killable. The Meagan/Ravos comparison is somewhat reasonable, I’ve wrecked half his army in two shots before. I think the key is you have to keep Ravos away from the bulk of your army. However, I do feel Ravos needs a little roll-back, like limit surge to wound 1 enemy, or do 1 damage instead of wound. Meagan has her moments of supreme damage, but requires heavy teching, proper runes(which means more teching), and half the army forming a perimeter. Even then she still averages at 1 damage 3 surge with a max of 5 surge and 3 lethal, and then your opponents units need to be close enough that a proper fireball goes off...Ravos simply does as Ravos is, no teching, no support, he just stomps.

Im not convinced uthuk is broken, but if there isn’t a meta shift with darnati/scouts/wraiths then there’s a lot of evidence mounting.

30 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I’ll need a few more games to really confirm what church is saying, but I’m starting to agree, uthuk seem superpowered now but those new units are really going to put them back at a reasonable balance.

Im not convinced uthuk is broken, but if there isn’t a meta shift with darnati/scouts/wraiths then there’s a lot of evidence mounting.

I'm interested in what you think Scouts and Darnati are going to do to re-balance the meta.

5 minutes ago, xelveki said:

I'm interested in what you think Scouts and Darnati are going to do to re-balance the meta.

Well since the scouts and Darnati are both 1/1s they are going to do F*** all vs Ravos.

46 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Well since the scouts and Darnati are both 1/1s they are going to do F*** all vs Ravos.

Better than being 3/1's, no? I think they actually could do some work against Ravos compared to Rune Golems or Death Knights.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Better than being 3/1's, no? I think they actually could do some work against Ravos compared to Rune Golems or Death Knights.

True. Each wound is taking away fewer points from your units.

Darnati can charge, that’s something Elves need, as well as armor up, take shield wall, and just in general be a melee unit. There are a number of Latari figure tactics that aren’t cost effective yet due to no darnati as well.

Scouts with auto-flank deployments plus a nice home for embedded kari, lots of surge damage bouncing around.

wraiths, they’ll be weird. Combos with profane banner and such should be fun. Being able to run thru several units is going to be a game changer, blockers? Haha. Rippers in the way, move thru them.

this all is speculation of course.

Holy **** I just realized that darnati with avenger of latariana can always dial a long charge and still melee if things go wrong!

also packing shield wall against Ravos, they lose about a tray and a half as opposed to the whole back rank, and then hit him back with a damage potential of 13 with tempered steel.

If we learn that darnati keep their dice when they don’t reroll then on a perfect roll it’s 17 output. Doubt it works that way but here’s hoping.

39 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Holy **** I just realized that darnati with avenger of latariana can always dial a long charge and still melee if things go wrong!

also packing shield wall against Ravos, they lose about a tray and a half as opposed to the whole back rank, and then hit him back with a damage potential of 13 with tempered steel.

If we learn that darnati keep their dice when they don’t reroll then on a perfect roll it’s 17 output. Doubt it works that way but here’s hoping.

Yeah, Avenger was clearly built for Darnati (and not just because Archers have lousy melee attacks), and it's going to be oh so sweet. Actually, File Leader is going to be really good on Darnati, too -- they can't do a long charge (no charge modifier on their green marches), but 4 melee is early that they can get the File Leader's dial down on the table before a lot of longer charges, and still preempt the attack. So with a File Leader, you have to anticipate the charge, but you can put yourself into a situation where you have the upper hand -- you either charge yourself on 3 or 4, or you File Leader in to receive a 4+ charge against you.

Latari will finally get a solid front-line Dispatch Runner host/target option, as well. Sure, you can put one with 4 Archers, but it's awkward, and it's tough to put them where you need Leonx Riders to attack due to the difference in speed and range.

Finally, I think Darnati are going to be a very nice banner host unit.

Darnati are going to be really fun to experiment with, for sure.

As for crazy Maegan damages, they are possible, but I find they don't tend to work out quite like the ideal we know on paper. Still, it is pretty difficult for an opponent to keep you off at least two trays. My Maegan list is a 6 tray Scion base with Dispatch runner on a 4 tray Archer set, with Maegan as a secondary candidate for Dispatch runner. There's a decent chance of saving Maegan for last unit placed, which helps immensely in picking the right target, possibly getting a flank, and then working her magic. I think the other key is that because she spreads damage out, you really want your units in pretty good position to capitalize on her damage and finish off some key enemy trays.

13 hours ago, Jukey said:

Darnati can charge, that’s something Elves need, as well as armor up, take shield wall, and just in general be a melee unit. There are a number of Latari figure tactics that aren’t cost effective yet due to no darnati as well.

Scouts with auto-flank deployments plus a nice home for embedded kari, lots of surge damage bouncing around.

wraiths, they’ll be weird. Combos with profane banner and such should be fun. Being able to run thru several units is going to be a game changer, blockers? Haha. Rippers in the way, move thru them.

this all is speculation of course.

Only Wraiths will be able to stand up to Ravos. Even then he is brutal and precise. Compare Ravos (40) with Maro (40) and tell me with a straight face Ravos isn't the deal of the GD century.

2 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

Only Wraiths will be able to stand up to Ravos. Even then he is brutal and precise. Compare Ravos (40) with Maro (40) and tell me with a straight face Ravos isn't the deal of the GD century.

Well, remember maro also has a crazy add trays ability, though personally I only find maro ok embedded. I don’t disagree though, I’ve called several games early due to Ravos single-handedly wrecking a whole flank. The only other hero with brutal and precise is kari and she has 1 less dice, so I do scratch my head at Ravos, he is melee only though. I think insatiable hunger is a bit more op than the testers realized and maybe they’ll change it. Ravos can be dealt with, the trouble is he usually takes more points investment to kill than he’s worth.

29 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Ravos can be dealt with, the trouble is he usually takes more points investment to kill than he’s worth.

It takes an entire list dedicated to dealing with him. Even then you are not competitive with anything else.

30 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I’ve called several games early due to Ravos single-handedly wrecking a whole flank.

Maro cannot do that. Even his tray ability only brings in chumps that *might* do damage if they are engaged. Ravos just needs to stand his fat @$$ around somebody and do direct wounds. Unreal.

My gut feeling is that they were afraid that if Ravos kept hurting himself, he wouldn't be worth taking. Hence we have Insatiable Hunger, Viscera Goblet, and his insanely low 40 point cost. Honestly, they probably did take him a little too far, but it's kind of his thing in the Terrinoth lore. This guy is a really big deal! Unfortunately, this doesn't make for balanced game play in a miniatures game.

Still, I need more table time against him before I, personally, can start crying OP.

P.S. and yes, Ravos costing 40 points makes me a little sad about Maro, but Maro does have a double hit modifier on his dial, and can shoot at range. I really like what Maro brings to the table.

22 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

This guy is a really big deal!

Cool! Make him 55 or 60 points. Problem solved.

23 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I really like what Maro brings to the table.

I do to. I think Maro is costed correctly. I think brutal, precise, the ability to run across the table in one turn and do and auto wound to Ravos' choice of unit is crazy.

This is supposed to be a single faction game, and now FFG is saying 75% of factions have no chance in organized play. So will they fix it or will they wait for Uthuk to dominate for a couple years (a la 4x4 from imperial assault) before realizing they messed up.