7 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

ARE YOU FLIPPING KIDDING ME?!

(I got some expendable money and spent down to $60 to save for the Uthuk Y'llan anticipating they'd be the same price as the Latari. That price had better change. There's no reason for this to cost more. It has about the same amount of stuff.)

I'll loan you $10 if you still need it by Q4 2017.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

@Vineheart01 With that scenario, you may not even be the one that needs to wound Ravos. If hthe player chooses to wound Ravos during round 1, thinking Ravos has plenty of health, the exocutioner can get in there and wipe him out quickly.

I'll bet another $10 that Ravos has unique upgrades that alter this ability, like restore a wound to Ravos or something for each wound he does with this ability.

17 minutes ago, Sulfurious said:

I'm not seeing where Ravos can wound himself. What am I missing? Are you referring to him in a unit of Berserkers?

His ability says, "Before each End Phase, you must choose a unit at range 1. It suffers 1 wound." His ability does not say, "...choose another unit..." and therefore Ravos is an eligible target for his own ability. To be honest, we are slightly extrapolating from other games. In X-Wing, a unit is always at range 1 of itself. Indeed, the rules for range say, "Range is the distance between two components on the play area as measured by the range ruler." Therefore, you could make an argument that a unit is never at range 1 to itself.

However, another ability, the Uncontrolled Geomancer, compounds the problem: "Each unit at range 1-[unstable energy] (including you) suffers damage equal to the number of trays in its unit. If [unstable energy] is 0, this effect does nothing." The wording suggests that a unit is at range 1 of itself because it reminds us to include the Uncontrolled Geomancer with all the other units that are at range 1 of it. If a unit were not at range-1 of itself, Uncontrolled Geomancer would have read, "You and each unit at range 1-[unstable energy] suffers damage equal to the number of trays in its unit."

I gotta say I'm worried about power creep.

Just now, flightmaster101 said:

I gotta say I'm worried about power creep.

I'm curious to hear you expound on this. After this announcement, I feel that the Latari are better off than the Uthuk. Of course, they could very well be part of the power creep you speak of.

2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

@Vineheart01 With that scenario, you may not even be the one that needs to wound Ravos. If hthe player chooses to wound Ravos during round 1, thinking Ravos has plenty of health, the exocutioner can get in there and wipe him out quickly.

Too bad lingering dead and simultaneous orders take the same slot, same with the necromancer and executioner. Those 4 together would be a powerhouse.

7 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

I gotta say I'm worried about power creep.

Im not, these units are glass cannons. There low defense values mean that every hit you roll is guaranteed to do at least 1 wound, 2 to the infantry and cav. Not to mention they don't have any ranged units atm, which means you can sit back with Kari or your archers doing all the work.

41 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

I'll bet another $10 that Ravos has unique upgrades that alter this ability, like restore a wound to Ravos or something for each wound he does with this ability.

Either that, or through a future unit that would mitigate the self-wounding, like the Bloodwitches that are said to heal allies in the Lore Guide: "Bloodwitches could heal themselves and their minions with the spilled blood of their enemies...". Could be an interesting synergy to play with.

20 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I'm curious to hear you expound on this. After this announcement, I feel that the Latari are better off than the Uthuk. Of course, they could very well be part of the power creep you speak of.

So caveat I did just work a 13.5 hour day but...

Flesh rippers rolling 2 blue have a huge potential for damage. They also take 3 damage to kill, where an oathsworn takes 2 damage to kill.

the hero is crazy. 2/7 with brutal precise and direct wounding. Also steadfast fear and white red blue.

threshers re roll if you have a panic tokien, and he gives them out to nearby units.

So I haven't seen all the dials and haven't thought about specifics on balance. But at first blush to these tired eyes they look reaaaaaaalllllyyy good.

21 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Im not, these units are glass cannons. There low defense values mean that every hit you roll is guaranteed to do at least 1 wound, 2 to the infantry and cav. Not to mention they don't have any ranged units atm, which means you can sit back with Kari or your archers doing all the work.

I definitely think the berserkers are the weakest of the melee infantry (since we don't know what elves have), but their other units look very powerful.

i do see your point about glass cannons tho.

8 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

So caveat I did just work a 13.5 hour day but...

Flesh rippers rolling 2 blue have a huge potential for damage. They also take 3 damage to kill, where an oathsworn takes 2 damage to kill.

the hero is crazy. 2/7 with brutal precise and direct wounding. Also steadfast fear and white red blue.

threshers re roll if you have a panic tokien, and he gives them out to nearby units.

So I haven't seen all the dials and haven't thought about specifics on balance. But at first blush to these tired eyes they look reaaaaaaalllllyyy good.

I understand first impressions. It's just nice to know where you are coming from. Your post inspired me to start a comparison sheet in Excel. I'm not tracking upgrade slots or potential upgrades and I haven't got to the heroes yet, but they all look decently balanced. The only ones that look like their falling behind are the Daqan Lords. Waiqar seems to be right up there with the Latari and Uthuk.

The Flesh Rippers do appear to have greater damage potential than the Oathsworn Cavalry, but at least the surge damage is not multiplied by threat. And as far as defense, I agree with you until we see their dial. Like you said, we haven't seen the dials yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict no defense modifier for Flesh Rippers or Berserkers. Otherwise, I can't figure out why the Daqan counterparts are priced so high. EDIT: Actually, Flesh Rippers cost more than Oathsworn Cavalry.

See these vermin? You know WHY your children lay in terror and the world suffers the touch of the Ynfernael once again?

Because Timmoran didn't see fit to entrust his power to the lieutenant who bled, suffered, and faced the worst Llovar could visit upon a soul. The one who truly understood the need to remove every last living Uthuk from the world.

#Waiqardidnothingwrong

26 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

So caveat I did just work a 13.5 hour day but...

Flesh rippers rolling 2 blue have a huge potential for damage. They also take 3 damage to kill, where an oathsworn takes 2 damage to kill.

the hero is crazy. 2/7 with brutal precise and direct wounding. Also steadfast fear and white red blue.

threshers re roll if you have a panic tokien, and he gives them out to nearby units.

So I haven't seen all the dials and haven't thought about specifics on balance. But at first blush to these tired eyes they look reaaaaaaalllllyyy good.

The hero's a monster, but he's priced like one, too. And his speed is highly dependent on runes. He's not going to shrug much off unscathed, so he'll be more subject to attrition than other heroes so far, who can often shrug off weak attack rolls. Those same rolls are going to chip away at Ravos.

Flesh Rippers are definitely nice. They're the stars of the lineup so far, in my opinion. We don't know what their dial looks like, though -- I suspect they won't be as maneuverable as other cavalry. They're themed to rush directly at what they're pointed towards, not for sweeping flanking maneuvers. Depending on the rules for them, they might be subject to blocking, too -- what happens if their 1 march pre-action collides with a unit? Do they get a panic if they're not charging? What if they are charging -- does the charge modifier modify that march, as well as the dialed-in action? Needs more information.

Threshers are on the weaker end of the siege unit side when it comes to killyness -- Rune Golems are sometimes more brutal than they, and Scions and Lancers roll more dice and get to do ranged attacks or mortal strikes, to boot.

So even without seeing dials, I can see positives and negatives compared to the other units of their types. That doesn't scream power creep to me, yet. Now, their dials could change that, or they could make them even worse by comparison.

2 hours ago, kaffis said:

Depending on the rules for them, they might be subject to blocking, too -- what happens if their 1 march pre-action collides with a unit? Do they get a panic if they're not charging? What if they are charging -- does the charge modifier modify that march, as well as the dialed-in action? Needs more information.

Dial modifiers only modify dial actions.

It is still a march action and as such is subject to the rules associated with marching. So, unless they have an upgrade similar to aggressive drummer, colliding with an enemy unit will result in a panic token. Also being engaged with an enemy will cancel the action.

2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I understand first impressions. It's just nice to know where you are coming from. Your post inspired me to start a comparison sheet in Excel. I'm not tracking upgrade slots or potential upgrades and I haven't got to the heroes yet, but they all look decently balanced. The only ones that look like their falling behind are the Daqan Lords. Waiqar seems to be right up there with the Latari and Uthuk.

The Flesh Rippers do appear to have greater damage potential than the Oathsworn Cavalry, but at least the surge damage is not multiplied by threat. And as far as defense, I agree with you until we see their dial. Like you said, we haven't seen the dials yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict no defense modifier for Flesh Rippers or Berserkers. Otherwise, I can't figure out why the Daqan counterparts are priced so high. EDIT: Actually, Flesh Rippers cost more than Oathsworn Cavalry.

Greater Damage?

Not so much. Anything 2 wide does more damage by re-rolling single surge results hoping for hits. You might get a point or two "bonus" damage, but that damage is separate, and has to over come defense on its own.

On the other hand, Oathsword with red-red-blue, has the better damage die (6 hits out of 8 sides, rather than 4 hits).

Defense 2, bumping to defense 3 with the white modifier, is a whole lot more durable than defense 1 with 3 wounds.

Unless Flesh Rippers had an amazing dial, or some awesome special rule, I'd rather have Oath Sworn.

i wouldnt call this power creep at all.

Uthuk clearly hit hard and have more dice, but dude they are so easy to kill right now. We are used to doing 1-2 wounds to a multiwound model max because of 3+ armor, with 2 armor even average damage will do 2 wounds from a random 2x2 of spearmen. Nevermind the 4x1 Cavalry or 3x3 Sieged Up Spearmen doing 20+ damage lol. And of course the beforementioned Executioner loving the Uthuk and Deathknights will hit really hard as well (which will be definitely out before uthuk)

47 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i wouldnt call this power creep at all.

Uthuk clearly hit hard and have more dice, but dude they are so easy to kill right now. We are used to doing 1-2 wounds to a multiwound model max because of 3+ armor, with 2 armor even average damage will do 2 wounds from a random 2x2 of spearmen. Nevermind the 4x1 Cavalry or 3x3 Sieged Up Spearmen doing 20+ damage lol. And of course the beforementioned Executioner loving the Uthuk and Deathknights will hit really hard as well (which will be definitely out before uthuk)

Agree, I feel people are missing that wounds are not as valuable as defense. A couple folks seem to be multiplying them to get 'hp' but given defense is a threshold and allows you to shrug damage off the calculation is not nearly so simple. When a golem rolls up with a modified 5-6 defense, it gets really hard to do much to it unless you greatly outclass it anyway.

Didn't everything get designed at the same time anyway? Saying the Uthuk are power creep is like saying there's power creep in a core box...

1 hour ago, Hepitude said:

Didn't everything get designed at the same time anyway? Saying the Uthuk are power creep is like saying there's power creep in a core box...

Not necessarily. I'm sure it is all playtested together, but it is more likely that it was designed in waves similar to how it has been released.

Hepitude said: Didn't everything get designed at the same time anyway? Saying the Uthuk are power creep is like saying there's power creep in a core box...

I totally agree. And evoking power creep at this early stage implies that:

1. FFG designers and playtesters are incompetent.

AND/OR

2. FFG voluntarily design the latest armies and units to be more powerful, as an incentive for customers already owning an army to start a second one and keep buying the newest units just to stay competitive in the OP playfield.

FFG's track record of well-designed games clearly eliminates point 1 in my opinion. As for point 2, I never engaged long-term with one of their OP games to have an educated opinion.

I'm hoping we get the second Uthuk hero spoiled next week alongside the blister packs including the infantry command. Then we still need the a brand new unit for the Latari and Uthuk to put them on parity with the Daqan and Waiqar factions.

We still have to see their dials... no sense in getting worked up just yet. If Flesh Rippers have a 2 damage modifier or something, then I think we can get worried.

For the moment, everything seems pretty balanced to me. Powerful abilities for sure, but offset by some interesting requirements, like doing damage to friendly units and being forced to move before revealing a dial. Has a cool flavor to it.

Given that they announced Crossbowmen and DKs before the 4 factions were available im kinda curious how theyre going to go about this.
On one hand, they could keep announcing more daqan/waiqar stuff so those factions dont get left in the dust for a year or so.
But on the other hand, that gives them an unfair advantage by having more diversity. With the core army and command box you can easily expect what a faction will do, but come crossbowmen and DKs that will shift a little and will only shift more as they add more units. Theres also no dedicated "spellcaster" unit yet and i'd be surprised if that never happens (i.e. Maro's attack, where the dice are rune dependent and/or they have abilities based on runes).

If they go with getting the factions all with 1 unit of each general type (footman, archer, cavalry, siege, command upgrade for infantry, and 2 heroes) then we probably wont see anything new for Daqan/Waiqar for a while. Even though that bums me out as a Daqan player, i kinda hope they do that just to keep things even.

Latari starter box is coming out soon, as is the daqan/waiqar siege boxes. That leaves Latari command, their 2nd hero, standalones for starter army units, Uthuk army, Uthuk command, Uthuk standalone boxes, Uthuk 2nd hero, and Uthuk archer (possibly the spellcasters i mentioned?). Thats friggen 12 things that need to come out to bring all 4 armies to the same level before anything new for Daqans/Waiqar can come out lol. 14 if you count crossbowmen/DKs i guess.
However, once you get to that point, we can start getting standard waves like for other games. One box per faction in each wave: they dont have to be the same kind of unit but it keeps the number of units to pick from the same and thats important.

I haven't played many games, but am I missing something? Panic tokens seem weak compared to blight. And the berserker ability is pretty weak as well. Any offensive abilities these figures has is easily balanced out by the low armor. Any old attack is likely to make wounds stick.

Panic is weak until you get 3 of them. And so far 1 ability is contingent on panic, I expect more future abilities to require panic. For Uthak I mean