1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Flying casual was about keeping the "fun" in X-Wing, even at the competitive level (or that was my interpretation).

Sure I'd agree with that. But don't mistake fun with sloppy play. Someone may not actually care if they win or lose, and do everything they can to make sure both players are enjoying the game, while at the same time insist that people play strictly by the rules. Anyone who demands a takeback due to a simple mistake is as much a WAAC and perhaps even more so than the one who refuses it.

1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

And justifying it as something you do during a Regionals or Worlds is WAAC because you're only doing it at those level of events because you want to win them... at any cost.

The vital part of that is "at any cost" which is simply untrue. Insisting that people play by the rules is not at any cost.

1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Lastly, I'm not suggesting this player was flying casually. They definitely sound like they were being a tool. I'm simply suggesting that they may be more used to playing in a more fly casual setting.

When you get to Worlds or even Regionals, you should expect to be held to a higher standard of play. The tournament rules themselves say this...

Quote

Premier

Premier events are the highest level of competition for Fantasy Flight Games tournaments. At this top level of tournaments, players are expected to have a moderate amount of experience. Players should be familiar with not only the game rules, but also the FAQ and tournament regulations. The focus is on a competitive and fair environment.

No one should go into a Premier level event expecting to get away with the same kind of things you can playing a game at your LGS or even a store championship.

13 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Flying casual was about keeping the "fun" in X-Wing, even at the competitive level (or that was my interpretation).

Fly Casual works both ways. Having the good grace to own your mistake and play on if an opponent holds you to your play is also in keeping with the spirit.

5 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Fly Casual works both ways. Having the good grace to own your mistake and play on if an opponent holds you to your play is also in keeping with the spirit.

Exactly.

I'm slightly concerned that a judge at Worlds got this wrong, BTW. The rules are pretty clear that once the token is down the action has been completed and is then "locked in". Of course, an opponent is at liberty to allow the action to be taken back but that's not technically what the rules say.

For me, the fact it makes no difference either way as no new information has been gained in the process of taking the actions, I'd definitely allow a take-back. I'd allow it at any level of competition. I really don't understand the attitude that there's some major difference in approach between a Store Championship and Worlds. It's flying little plastic spaceships for, at best, some plastic swag. That, to me, is also part of Fly Casual - treat all events the same because this is just a game.

5 hours ago, Jike said:

treat all events the same because this is just a game.

No, some event have money on the line. Would you say to professional Football player that they just push a plastic ball around on turf and this is just a game.

Ok, x-wing is not everyones job. But as there is "level" of play in sport, there is also level of play in competitive game. I don't say to go as far as some soccer player that seems to "fake" injury to play the "rules" that the other player always get the penalty on an injury. But at the same time, at world level I would not accept take back. Mistake are what make someone loose. When you play "better" you just have made less mistake then the other.

Edit: Would you let someone do a take back that dialed a maneuver that will bump on his own ship because he forgot the order of activation of is own ship. No. Then forgetting you had a better action to do is the same thing, you forgot.

10 minutes ago, muribundi said:

No, some event have money on the line. Would you say to professional Football player that they just push a plastic ball around on turf and this is just a game.

Ok, x-wing is not everyones job. But as there is "level" of play in sport, there is also level of play in competitive game. I don't say to go as far as some soccer player that seems to "fake" injury to play the "rules" that the other player always get the penalty on an injury. But at the same time, at world level I would not accept take back. Mistake are what make someone loose. When you play "better" you just have made less mistake then the other.

Edit: Would you let someone do a take back that dialed a maneuver that will bump on his own ship because he forgot the order of activation of is own ship. No. Then forgetting you had a better action to do is the same thing, you forgot.

When X-Wing players start earning millions then we can start talking about levels of play.

For me, there are different types of mistakes. Dialling in the wrong manoeuvre is not something I'd let somebody take back, nor would I let somebody change their mind on an action at the start of the combat phase after another 3 ships have all moved. But the situation being discussed here is different. It's the equivalent of somebody saying "I'll focus...no, wait, evade," and you holding them to the first action. I just don't see the point in demanding they can't take back their first action in this instance . It's not an all-encompassing approach to allow take-backs for any and all mistakes.

No it is not the same thing as " I'll focus...no, wait, evade"

He said I'll focus, put the focus down, said as my second action I'll use Gonk. THEN he discovered he would not be able to use Gonk two times. It is a lot of time that passed. That is a blunt mistake, not a change of mind during he said the sentence.

He clearly seen he was doing a mistake. Too late buddy, game are won on mistake.

So for a comparative situation, assume a player has a cloaked Whisper and an Academy Tie in his list. At the start of the round, he gets to move first, so he immediately flips over the Academy Tie's maneuver dial and suddenly realizes he forgot to decloak Whisper. He looks at you and says he's going to decloak and has the right to do so because he hasn't placed the movement template or moved the ship yet.

So do you allow him to do it or tell him he missed the timing window and can't?

Well this exact mistake happen to me. Multiple time with TIE Phantom and multiple other time with Advance Sensor on some ship. And each time my opponent prevented me from taking it back so...

Edit: And it would depend on the level of play, on local tournement, I would allow it, on high level play I would say no and call the judge over an argument.

3 hours ago, USCGrad90 said:

So for a comparative situation, assume a player has a cloaked Whisper and an Academy Tie in his list. At the start of the round, he gets to move first, so he immediately flips over the Academy Tie's maneuver dial and suddenly realizes he forgot to decloak Whisper. He looks at you and says he's going to decloak and has the right to do so because he hasn't placed the movement template or moved the ship yet.

So do you allow him to do it or tell him he missed the timing window and can't?

He hasn't put his template down yet so I'd let him go back and decloak, yes. The game state hasn't changed so I don't see the problem.

If he'd have moved his TIE then I probably wouldn't allow the decloak as the game state has changed.

13 hours ago, muribundi said:

No, some event have money on the line.

Do they? Serious question. Other than store credit, the only event I've seen with anything approaching a monetary prize was the Australian Open, which had an AUD2000 prize in flight vouchers, which was basically their version of "send the winner to Worlds". Has there been an X-Wing tournament with a straight up cash prize?

Some people might consider store credit and/or gift vouchers as good as a cash prize...

14 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Some people might consider store credit and/or gift vouchers as good as a cash prize...

Sure. But comparing it to professional football is, uh, just a little hyperbolic. (I've never seen a store credit prize greater than about $40. Do they get substantially higher? Maybe I'm just not playing in the right tournaments.)

Oh, I agree with you there.

On 6/27/2017 at 1:40 AM, Parravon said:

I would choose depending on whether the opponent was being genuine in his mistake, or he'd been playing like a d!ck.

He's flying an umpmaster. Of course he's a d.

20 hours ago, Jike said:

He hasn't put his template down yet so I'd let him go back and decloak, yes. The game state hasn't changed so I don't see the problem.

If he'd have moved his TIE then I probably wouldn't allow the decloak as the game state has changed.

I think that's reasonable, but I think the part of the issue from the OP and this example that puts everything into question is an opponent stating they have a "right" to do it, even though they clearly made a mistake.

16 hours ago, USCGrad90 said:

I think that's reasonable, but I think the part of the issue from the OP and this example that puts everything into question is an opponent stating they have a "right" to do it, even though they clearly made a mistake.

I agree with that. Attitude is important here too. Technically the opponent has no right to change his action so how he behaves is a good indication of his overall attitude.

The player had all the information when he made his first choice. I'd actually say that letting him "take back" his Focus action is as bad or worse than allowing some of the various "pre-measuring" methods that get so many up in arms. At least the measuring may just be equalizing a player with poor spatial perception to one with perfect spatial perception and complete public knowledge in all cases; with these token someone is just making a BAD PLAY based on perfect information.

So we think he wanted to Gonk-Gonk but considering that Focus is the most used token in the game and the Jumpmaster has many ways of using it that certainly seem like a very logical action choice to me. I guess my only wish would be that if allowed the "take back" so he could Gonk-Gonk he happened to get hit by an attack where his defense dice come up eye-eye and he had no focus to turn those into damage negation meaning he lost more than he gained.

In general, if the game-state hasn't changed, the last-declared action can be rescinded.

There is no rule in X-Wing that declared actions are binding. All precedent is that "new information," "changed game-state," or "missed timing window" are what delineates officially binding actions. (And even then it's slippery: consider that Squad Leader, for instance, allows the giving of an action as an action, and if the benefiting ship can't perform the action it tries to do, not only does it not lose the action, it COMPLETELY rolls back to the Squad Leader.)

The argument that allowing take-backs would slow the game down is EXACTLY backward. If you really want to slow the game down, force players to literally go through a mental checklist, out of fear of missing something, before they open their mouths. For every single action.

All that said, in the case presented, the Gonk can be rolled back. The focus action is at the discretion of the active player's opponent, because by declaring a second action, the active player closed the timing window on the first action.