56 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Also, I think we've mentioned this video before, but on the topic of negativity, Kibler's view on negativity in Hearthstone is still incredibly relevant universally, and in X-Wing:

https://youtu.be/Kmqz4Fun94k

Hmm. I actually think this is very different from Xwing. I think that most players recognize the skill that the top players have and that winning requires (both in list building and in-game decisions) but the negativity comes from the frustration with overall balance.

36 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Hmm. I actually think this is very different from Xwing. I think that most players recognize the skill that the top players have and that winning requires (both in list building and in-game decisions) but the negativity comes from the frustration with overall balance.

If that were true, we'd probably hear a lot less whining about dice...

may I direct you to the post du jour?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/252910-how-to-answer-dice-complains/?page=3

Edit: I think the more common reason is blaming dice to save face in the moment, but I suspect enough players really believe they're unlucky or their opponent was lucky, given how that chat post has digressed from how to deal with those players, to people interjecting that 'dice happen!'

But, there has been a lot of negativity lately about how scum is everything, or rebels are unplayable, etc etc.

Fortunately, it's died down a bit, but I'm worried we do have a 'WoW' forums problem

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Used to run "ridin dirty ren" up until the palp and x7 faq

Col detector, Pattern analyzer, palp, expert handling

Juke relay omega L, delta x7

Ren could do incredibly silly things woth debris, but the list is far more clunky now that the x7 can no longer abuse debris like Kylo can and palp is far clunkier making it more difficult to trigger kylo

Oh that's good. My garbled post to was supposed to say I liked running an expert handling Kylo as well. I want to try it again. I think you'd also pointed out that with collision Detector you could barrel roll onto debris and not take a stress right?

I've got a list with expert handling Kylo, PS10 Quickdraw and 26 points spare. I'm tempted to just put Omega Leader there, but I keep being drawn to Sabaac.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

If that were true, we'd probably hear a lot less whining about dice...

may I direct you to the post du jour?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/252910-how-to-answer-dice-complains/?page=3

Edit: I think the more common reason is blaming dice to save face in the moment, but I suspect enough players really believe they're unlucky or their opponent was lucky, given how that chat post has digressed from how to deal with those players, to people interjecting that 'dice happen!'

I don't think one thread is representative of the community. I do hear it within games occasionally but I don't really hear it as a reason people win consistently, which is what that video gets at -- even winners are downplaying their prep! Sure there are people that may think it but it's a big game, so ascribing that to the community is --imo-- overreaching.

As for scum Rebel, etc.. yeah there is a lot of it, but I think that's due to real balance issues (which I've seen a lot of top players agree that they exist, so this isn't an excuse for losing issue), which the person in the video mentions even Magic (the gold standard for this I guess) went through this.

I guess I see those as two separate issues and one with more validity than the other, and I just don't see the video as connecting to Xwings problems generally, though there are two or three good suggestions about specifically handling variance within a game.

I do think that there are better/more constructive ways to address those issues than we often see in the forums.

On 6/28/2017 at 3:56 AM, Goseki1 said:

Oh that's good. My garbled post to was supposed to say I liked running an expert handling Kylo as well. I want to try it again. I think you'd also pointed out that with collision Detector you could barrel roll onto debris and not take a stress right?

I've got a list with expert handling Kylo, PS10 Quickdraw and 26 points spare. I'm tempted to just put Omega Leader there, but I keep being drawn to Sabaac.

You could take Adaptability off Quickdraw and put Draw Their Fire on her. Then run 24pt Sabaac with LWF and Score to settle.

You can fly them together and make the decision on who to target really tough. Though flying them together is hard because 1 ship moves much much faster than the other.

Umm... guys? The bumpmaster build popped up around a month after the original 3x Jumpmaster list came into existence.

First of all, the diagram you created shows the perfect lineup for the jumpmaster- against a player who understands the threat, this is borderline impossible to achieve. In most cases you bring it down to a 50-50- bumpmaster can either block a majority of the ship's dial or one or two specific maneuvers that would get past the "optimal" blocking move.

Second, even if you do manage to create this kind of scenario, you're telegraphing your own position (and usually for more than just the bumpmaster, as you need to actually deal damage- especially if you decide to go with ion projector over lasers). In addition, your opponent knows exactly where his bumped ship will be, so he can plan around that. Either way, he can use this to his advantage with the rest of his list.

Third, while from this position you can block corran's every maneuver, if you fail to ionize him (50% chance of failure is a lot) he will most definitely be able to break away from the bump next turn (unless you managed to catch him in a literally perfect spot where you were luring him from the start, in which case you deserve it )

Fourth... This is cool against glass cannons, but most large ships don't really care.

Bumpmaster is certainly a solid build and nothing to sneeze at, but it's not nearly the game-shattering monstrocity you're trying to demonstrate to the world.

Now, onto Kylo.

Kylo... he's just not worth the elaborate construct he requires to go off in most matchups. If you're facing a decimator, sure, he's probably the best thing you could have, but you are giving up a lot of power to get him to work. This is the main reason he's not seen much play outside of RAC in my opinion.

Let's look at some of the most popular builds:

Dengar-Tel: Dengar only loses one shot. PS loss is a little painful, but after the inital engagement he can live with that. Tel's ability can be used to cancel out the crit (I literally discarded a blinded with his ability yesterday).

Miranda-Dash: Both ships can use the turn of blinded to SLAM into a better position, so they reduce the effectiveness of blinded. Additionally, this matchup generally favours any imperial list that could run Kylo anyway, so it's not really worth using in most cases (And honestly, Rebel Captive is even better at screwing them over for the same cost).

Parattanni/Palobtanni: Both ships that you want to put the crit on have a real chance of just not getting critted. Additionally, they're both lacking in shields, and get really screwed over by many ship-type crits.

RAC+ace: this is the one matchup where Kylo shines. Decimators absolutely despise Kylo, by the time they get to shoot they're usually almost dead.

Double jumps+fenn/3jumps/jump, fenn, teroch: Kylo's pretty good in this one.

Biggs+thingys: Are you seriously going to put that blinded on Biggs? I mean, he does have a 3-primary, but he's not exactly a death machine. And by the time biggs goes down your kylo-carrier or crit-generators are probably already in a pretty bad shape.

Quickdraw&Friends: QD still gets to shoot, friends usually have a good chance of shrugging off the attack. Not awful, but nothing amazing either.

So overall, we have 1 matchup where Kylo is a massive advantage, one or two where he's decent, and a lot of matchups where you're simply better off just using other stuff. Not worthless, but this isn't a game-breaker either.

Defenders can get a critical with guidance Chips, and TIE/d doesn't remove the Missile slot.

That dumb TIE/fo that no one remembers the name of can take crack shot, and your Upsilon or /sf can have targeting synchronizer.

However, for proper levels of Rube Goldberg bull, the Fanatical Devotion card doesn't have an FAQ entry. What happens if you further modify that set aside die? If it is still unblockable, mangler gives you a Ten Numb effect.

OGP, mangler, Hux, Kylo, experimental interface is 36 points. Use both crew actions, and if you roll an eye you can use the Hux eye to make that die unblockable, then the mangler to change it to an unblockable crit.

This doesn't all have to be the same ship, but it can be. Put Baffle on it, better chance of getting arc more than once. You don't care how long it lives. Put FCS on it to reroll everything looking for that eye result.

Gonna get get me an FAQ entry, cannot be further modified, just you wait.

Bio Fel is performing for the same reason your early defenders did. You are prepared to fly him and your opponents mostly aren't prepared to deal with him. He's still not a fan of this meta

That Corran chart is a good point, but if a Corran player lets that setup happen he has already thrown it over to a dice game. That's on him. I can make all kinds of situations where a player has already lost despite his at-a-glance board state. It doesn't mean the cards making it happen are all broken.

Listening to the episode right now. @Brunas @Tlfj200 Your guys talk on Coordinate and the Upsilon was actually good content! ? lol. I had been running this list for about a month before Worlds and at Worlds. It's extremely good and gave me a lot of success. Tim Dugan talked about it on Gold's live cast and TCX. @Mynock Delta also mentioned it on Mynock briefly too.

Anyways, the idea is they are all PS8 so the order is critical in which you move them and which one you Advance Sensor/Coordinate to. It kills your mind after about Round 4, however, if you have practice time in the list the ceiling is extremely high. Rebel Captive hinders Mindlink a ton and keeps the Shuttle alive longer especially with Kylo's ability as a deterrent. Jax shuts down the tokens. Omega Leader can lock the ship that Jax didn't shut tokens down from to keep himself alive longer and Juke will still work.

Test (99)

Kylo Ren (42) - Upsilon-class Shuttle
Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Sensors (3), Rebel Captive (3), Inspiring Recruit (1)

"Omega Leader" (26) - TIE/FO Fighter
Juke (2), Comm Relay (3)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor
Push The Limit (3), Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2)

29 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Bio Fel is performing for the same reason your early defenders did. You are prepared to fly him and your opponents mostly aren't prepared to deal with him.

Yeah, you pretty much summed up my entire modus operandi in a sentence. I attribute it to being left handed. The ancients had all sorts of theories about lefties being underhanded sneaks.

On 6/27/2017 at 10:47 AM, Tlfj200 said:

But, there has been a lot of negativity lately about how scum is everything, or rebels are unplayable, etc etc.

Fortunately, it's died down a bit, but I'm worried we do have a 'WoW' forums problem

I can't remeber if i said this on the podcast , but i think players interpet anything another faction gets that they dont get as ffg "hating " that faction. So everytime scum gets even more disgusting rebel and imperial players feel slighted.

I don't think FFG hates any faction, they just hate starfighters with forward firing arcs.

7 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

Defenders can get a critical with guidance Chips, and TIE/d doesn't remove the Missile slot.

That dumb TIE/fo that no one remembers the name of can take crack shot, and your Upsilon or /sf can have targeting synchronizer.

However, for proper levels of Rube Goldberg bull, the Fanatical Devotion card doesn't have an FAQ entry. What happens if you further modify that set aside die? If it is still unblockable, mangler gives you a Ten Numb effect.

OGP, mangler, Hux, Kylo, experimental interface is 36 points. Use both crew actions, and if you roll an eye you can use the Hux eye to make that die unblockable, then the mangler to change it to an unblockable crit.

This doesn't all have to be the same ship, but it can be. Put Baffle on it, better chance of getting arc more than once. You don't care how long it lives. Put FCS on it to reroll everything looking for that eye result.

Gonna get get me an FAQ entry, cannot be further modified, just you wait.

What are you talking about?
Fanatical devotion specifically states "the set aside hit result cannot be canceled by defense dice".

If it stops being a hit result, it's no longer unavoidable. Simple as that.

I'm aware bump masters existed before, and I'm saying two things:

1) they were better than we thought,

2) the addition of being able to drop something out of the back is what increases the rate to nearly 100%.

In the Corran example, Corran does eventually have to attempt to shoot (he doesn't, but if he wants to win he does).

What we're saying is we can block pretty much any maneuver in 180 degrees (maybe a little more) in front of manaroo. We can do this at range 3+ as well, but then we are having to guess your maneuver because we couldn't use intel.

Again - pretty much *any* maneuver.

Blocking a big ship hurts just as much - it's the removal of actions and board control that's so helpful, the additional bump effects (like ion) are gravy. Remember, Fenn and Teroch are on the hunt.

Edit: it's also worth noting that I'm specifically trying to engineer that scenario, and if you want to engage Fenn and Teroch, that manaroo is there, waiting.

As for kylo, I'll summon @Starslinger72 for his more detailed opinion.

That said, I stand by my analysis that kylo crew devastates two ship builds, and very likely dentel included.

I ran Decentish Kylo (KraytLo?) at a small (13 players) store champs last night. I went with Adaptability on Vader and PA on the shuttle and I'm very happy with that set-up.

I found it a lot of fun to play, and had no complaints from the other players. I went 3-1 (unfortunately one of the wins was a bye) and handed the winner his only loss of the night. The first match to the guy who came second I lost due to bad targeting decisions and tunnel vision. The last game I could have won better if I'd realised the interaction between the Special Ops Training and Blinded Pilot. Backdraft killed my Upsi after clearing Blinded Pilot with the opertunity to attack nothing out of his front arc. Taking PS 0 would definetly have been better there. Still, given my previous record flying Vader and the 0 practice games* I got in I'm very satisfied.

*0 with the exact list, I have been running an Ups with Hux teamed up with Backdraft and Lockdown recently though so I know how the parts work.

6 hours ago, Elavion said:

What are you talking about?
Fanatical devotion specifically states "the set aside hit result cannot be canceled by defense dice".

If it stops being a hit result, it's no longer unavoidable. Simple as that.

I'd normally agree, but the condition card calls it an (eye) result, then a (*) result in the next sentence. It says that set aside result cannot be evaded, and doesn't say it can be evaded if it is further modified. A (hit) result is a die facing the (hit) side, in this case the first (eye) facing die that you flipped.

It becomes a technical writing and philosophical debate at that point, which means the rules lawyers have a shot

They probably intend for it to not be the special set aside result if it is further modded, one possible interpretation is that, but until the FAQ states that I'll rules lawyer the heckfire out of it (when I never run it, this is a thought exercise).

5 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm aware bump masters existed before, and I'm saying two things:

1) they were better than we thought,

2) the addition of being able to drop something out of the back is what increases the rate to nearly 100%.

In the Corran example, Corran does eventually have to attempt to shoot (he doesn't, but if he wants to win he does).

What we're saying is we can block pretty much any maneuver in 180 degrees (maybe a little more) in front of manaroo. We can do this at range 3+ as well, but then we are having to guess your maneuver because we couldn't use intel.

Again - pretty much *any* maneuver.

Blocking a big ship hurts just as much - it's the removal of actions and board control that's so helpful, the additional bump effects (like ion) are gravy. Remember, Fenn and Teroch are on the hunt.

Edit: it's also worth noting that I'm specifically trying to engineer that scenario, and if you want to engage Fenn and Teroch, that manaroo is there, waiting.

I think there's also a #3 that you're missing that helped bumpmasters and that's that the "Great Nerfing." The three/four big cards that were nerfed all made things that were strong in the meta more vulnerable to bumping. A traditional Dengar was supported by a Manaroo at long range and didn't care about being bumped because he could still get tokens and could use Zuckuss regardless of stress, defenders still got an evade token and that often meant they had Juke in play, and of course Palp was there to help out imperial lists. Ironically, the lists that left out were scum Mindlink lists that have the ability to take the bumpmaster and are currently the least vulnerable to it.

5 hours ago, Major Tom said:

The last game I could have won better if I'd realised the interaction between the Special Ops Training and Blinded Pilot. Backdraft killed my Upsi after clearing Blinded Pilot with the opertunity to attack nothing out of his front arc.

Not to compound your loss but I don't think that is correct.

The card states that when attacking if you don't add a dice you can have an additional attack.

Blinded Pilot takes away your opportunity to attack so you cannot be "when attacking". It's that not adding the dice nets you the bonus attack, it's that not adding a dice during an attack that nets you the bonus attack.

It wasn't the loss, it was that I dropped 20pts more MoV but I'll put that to the TO and the guys who made the ruling. Not going to effect the outcome now, but I'll remember it going forward. Thank you.

7 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Not to compound your loss but I don't think that is correct.

The card states that when attacking if you don't add a dice you can have an additional attack.

Blinded Pilot takes away your opportunity to attack so you cannot be "when attacking". It's that not adding the dice nets you the bonus attack, it's that not adding a dice during an attack that nets you the bonus attack.

I think it depends on the new or old deck.

3 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Not to compound your loss but I don't think that is correct.

The card states that when attacking if you don't add a dice you can have an additional attack.

Blinded Pilot takes away your opportunity to attack so you cannot be "when attacking". It's that not adding the dice nets you the bonus attack, it's that not adding a dice during an attack that nets you the bonus attack.

Correct. If you've got (new deck) Blinded Pilot, you don't get to attack at all, so you cannot trigger the second attack off it. If you've got (old deck) Blinded Pilot this would work, but only if you have a target in your front arc to shoot at, else you can choose to clear it by shooting 0 dice plus a crit out the back..

16 hours ago, Elavion said:

Umm... guys? The bumpmaster build popped up around a month after the original 3x Jumpmaster list came into existence.

First of all, the diagram you created shows the perfect lineup for the jumpmaster- against a player who understands the threat, this is borderline impossible to achieve. In most cases you bring it down to a 50-50- bumpmaster can either block a majority of the ship's dial or one or two specific maneuvers that would get past the "optimal" blocking move.

Second, even if you do manage to create this kind of scenario, you're telegraphing your own position (and usually for more than just the bumpmaster, as you need to actually deal damage- especially if you decide to go with ion projector over lasers). In addition, your opponent knows exactly where his bumped ship will be, so he can plan around that. Either way, he can use this to his advantage with the rest of his list.

Third, while from this position you can block corran's every maneuver, if you fail to ionize him (50% chance of failure is a lot) he will most definitely be able to break away from the bump next turn (unless you managed to catch him in a literally perfect spot where you were luring him from the start, in which case you deserve it )

Fourth... This is cool against glass cannons, but most large ships don't really care.

Bumpmaster is certainly a solid build and nothing to sneeze at, but it's not nearly the game-shattering monstrocity you're trying to demonstrate to the world.

Thanks for the well thought out response. Only have time to respond to the first half, will try to remember to come back to the second half on kylo later today!

That lineup being perfect for the jumpmaster isn't really accurate. I just threw them down kind of like I remembered seeing it and it worked out. I'm not even sure a 1 turn Biggs more than the 2 turn there, just threw the example together pretty much at random. Don't forget, you don't need to be able to block everything, just drop a debris cloud over the ship or it's path.

Point two/three is saying that being ioned isn't that bad because they can plan around it, and that ship (depending on initiative) only has a 50% chance to be guaranteed bumped next turn, otherwise you actually have to block them? Both people knowing that the ship is doing a 1 straight is a massive gain for you, especially if it's stressed. Trying to stop a jumpmaster block like this is almost completely identical to advanced slam bombs: I'm going to hit you, and there's nothing you can do about it I'm range 1-2 if front or on the sides of you.

Point 4 makes me suspect you haven't played much with/against them, since cargo chute came out. It's almost stupidly easy to set up these single player scenarios against large base ships, if they ever get anywhere near you have guaranteed blocks until the end of time. Or, rather, the max I've ever had to set up blocks on a large base ship was 3 turns, because Fenn Rau is Pretty Good™. Everything is a glass cannon when it doesn't have actions with 5 dice coming in, except for like... A decimator?

Yes, if you play exceptionally you can avoid the bump in the long term with a small base ship. It also means whatever ship manaroo is setting up blocks on is completely removed from the fight, while manaroo (or anything with mindlink) is still contributing.

2 hours ago, AlexW said:

I think there's also a #3 that you're missing that helped bumpmasters and that's that the "Great Nerfing." The three/four big cards that were nerfed all made things that were strong in the meta more vulnerable to bumping. A traditional Dengar was supported by a Manaroo at long range and didn't care about being bumped because he could still get tokens and could use Zuckuss regardless of stress, defenders still got an evade token and that often meant they had Juke in play, and of course Palp was there to help out imperial lists. Ironically, the lists that left out were scum Mindlink lists that have the ability to take the bumpmaster and are currently the least vulnerable to it.

I think you're right about th needing escalating the power of bumping.

separately - I think you're underestimating how scary that manaroo is against other mindlink.

ODJ is tailored to destroy other mindlink, and a large reason is manaroo (though we discovered that after the fact, so it was not obvious).