Hi again forums, we're having a moderately worrying string of content going on, so I figured I'd share our discussion.

Here's the actual podcast, but I'll give you the summary too

So, first off, let's talk about intelligence agent. Of all the crazy things you can do in combo-wing, intel agent might be the most abusive. Especially on Jumpmasters, there comes a point in games in which a blocking jumpmaster (especially with Ion Projector) devolves the game into a single-player scenario. Your opponent selects a maneuver, and then you are guaranteed to block it after seeing it, with a 50% chance for them to be ionized but even if it doesn't go off they're likely guaranteed to be blocked next turn. I made an approximation of the random scenario I watched last week because it was on my mind, but these scenarios come up almost every game, especially against large base ships.

Hopefully this is clear, but the transparent squares are the potential spaces Corran can move by picking any move on his dial, and Manaroo's are the positions of a 1-turn and barrel roll. I just want to note that this isn't a particuarly contrived example or anything, and it doesn't really matter if Corran is stressed here, he just happened to be. You can't see it under the starting position for manaroo, but the two and three turns to the left are blocked by the barrel roll.

This scenario is a problem, because Corran thinks he is playing the game, but he really isn't anymore. The Manaroo player is guaranteed to deny Corran's actions and likely just kill him here, no matter what Corran sets on his dial, because of Intelligence agent.

If it's a 1/2/3/4/5 straight, or 2/3 bank left: just drop the cargo chute and stress corran, potentially block him or have a range 1 shot with Manaroo/ range 2 with Corran with him in front/behind you when he's double stressed.

2/3 Left Turn: Barrel Roll left/back

1/2/3 Right Bank, 2/3 Right Turn: Barrel Roll left/back

If intel agent were not involved here, there would be the potential to outguess/outplay the blocking, but you simply can't now. All Manaroo does is dial the 1 Turn, pick up your dial and decide just how hard to ruin Corran's day.

Main discussion point #2: Kylo. He hasn't been the apocalypse the forums predicted, but he probably should be. The only Kylo that was taken to Day 2 of Worlds made Top 16. It's my belief that Kylo actually is terrifying, and we've all basically been lazy finding the best ways to break it. Tyler stapled it to the side of Whisper/RAC because he was familiar with it, not because it's necessarily the best place to put it. Speaking of listbuilding with Kylo, here's the meta-wing link for Kylo:

http://meta-wing.com/upgrades/264?

According to meta-wing, Kylo performs about on par with Burnout SLAM and Trick Shot, which are... not particularly good. The short story is basically no one is running Kylo on things that aren't RAC. A massive portion of potential lists out there are basically just not being tested, because RAC is easy, basically. For Empire, here's the list of ways to guarantee or soft guarantee crits:

• Guidance chips (3+ primary value)
• Mangler
• RAC
• Backdraft/Vader
• Score to settle
• Palp
• Proton Torpedos
• Winged Gundark
  

Guidance Chips is hard because you have to run a Firespray with munitions, or a non-x7 Defender. There isn't a good place for Mangler in empire (other than maybe an OGP with Kylo + Manger?). Vader (or other pilots with ATC) and Backdraft are decent, but not Tier 1/S or whatever on their own. I haven't seen anyone bother with Score to Settle, though Score to Settle Maarek with kylo might be cute, because your crit generation is "wasted" after you get the two or three key Kylo's through.

Here's a couple of example lists that as far as I can tell aren't being competitively tested

Here you have two points left over for an EPT for Vader, or just taking adaptability and upgrading to Stridan and taking Pattern Analyzer. Honestly, I think Crack Shot is the way to go, because you're nearly guaranteed (97%+ and usually 99.9%+ against things that aren't soontir or a protectorate in arc at range 1) to get the crit through, and if you get the Kylo through you don't actually need to spend Crack Shot (70%+ of the time). Guarantees are good! Intensity is also an option. Intel Agent or Inspiring are both options on the shuttle, but if you haven't coordinated out actions with Intel Agent, go try it. Much like the example above it does things that are completely unfair! Coordinate Intel agent actually helps shore up one of the worst matchups out there of bombs, since you can intel agent to see where the K-Wing is moving, and coordinate to either block the K-Wing or just move to a spot that can't be bombed from that maneuver.

Another Example:

The common theme you'll see in these lists is using Kylo to cover the weaknesses of the Imperial Aces you don't see much because of their weakness to turrets (or in whisper's case, things that shoot before her as well). I hope I don't need to explain the strength of being able to trade a single action for free reign of being in your opponent's arcs since they can't shoot. A fat Han, Rey, or Miranda, gets a whole lot less scary to these aces without Autothrusters when they can't shoot. Especially Miranda, who just crumbles when she can't regen.

And lastly, following up on the illegal list bounty we ran! Congrats? to Robert Meyman, who won a store championship with an illegal list by putting Guidance Chips and Autothrusters on Fenn Rau. So, we're upping it a bit - now it's a regional or above! Good luck! If you win, you'll get an awesome trophy that totally exists and we won't have to panic and get made the day after you win.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

For Empire, here's the list of ways to guarantee or soft guarantee crits:

• Guidance chips
• Mangler
• Backdraft/Vader
• Score to settle
• Palp

This is not a full list, as it s missing Proton torpedoes at least (I tried maximizing Kylo chances in my Naboo list and ended up with Backdraft and Proton-equipped Tomax paired with Kylo-piloted Upsilon). Also Guidance chips is a solid choice to get a crit on a TIE/D with ordnance.

33 minutes ago, Brunas said:

And lastly, following up on the illegal list bounty we ran! Congrats? to Robert Meyman, who won a store championship with an illegal list by putting Guidance Chips and Autothrusters on Fenn Rau. So, we're upping it a bit - now it's a regional or above! Good luck! If you win, you'll get an awesome trophy that totally exists and we won't have to panic and get made the day after you win.

Git gud?

29 minutes ago, PT106 said:

This is not a full list, as it s missing Proton torpedoes at least (I tried maximizing Kylo chances in my Naboo list and ended up with Backdraft and Proton-equipped Tomax paired with Kylo-piloted Upsilon). Also Guidance chips is a solid choice to get a crit on a TIE/D with ordnance.

Good catch- I'll add Proton Torps and Nonx7 Defenders to the list, thanks!

Just now, Brunas said:

Good catch- I'll add Proton Torps and Nonx7 Defenders to the list, thanks!

And (obvious) RAC as well as ATC-equipped TIE/Adv and (exotic) Winged Gundark TIE Fighter and Omega Ace Tie/FO

Haven't listened to the episode yet, but just so everyone's aware:

If you're excuting an ionized 1 straight and bump into a ship with Ion Projector, Ion Project triggers before remove your ion token. So you can't potentially infinitely ionize a ship.

On the topic of Intel Agent... Abusive as it may be, it still takes dialling in the correct original maneuver, ie the one hard turn to the left in the example, to make it work. So while potent and powerful, it still takes a 'good' player to make it work. Unless you give Manaroo 'Stay on Target' for training wheels and unhinged for some extra green... Yeah, that's a terrible idea.

C'mon guys, I'm still waiting to hear that ultimate broken combo in which the game breaks totally and I'm guaranteed to win something over here. This jumpmaster bomber-then-blocker sounds like it has potential.

Edit: if unclear - I'm the moron who would go one straight with Manaroo to block because it's idiotic and wrong.

4 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Haven't listened to the episode yet, but just so everyone's aware:

If you're excuting an ionized 1 straight and bump into a ship with Ion Projector, Ion Project triggers before remove your ion token. So you can't potentially infinitely ionize a ship.

It depends on initiative, last I heard.

27 minutes ago, PT106 said:

And (obvious) RAC as well as ATC-equipped TIE/Adv and (exotic) Winged Gundark TIE Fighter and Omega Ace Tie/FO

Whoops, it started out as the "things that aren't RAC" list. And TIL Winged Gundark exists. Thanks again

Hey Krayt, your lack of preparation is showing. I know you hate the forums, but if you had read even one of the half dozen or so TIE/sf threads that have come up in the last month, you would have come across Quickdraw with A Score To Settle. It's one of the Empires very best pilots with a soft crit generating card at an amazing price.

The strength of this combo is that it's a freaking terrific combo all in its own, and Kylo makes it even better. The downside is that it only works on one enemy ship, but SFs throw a lot of re-rolled dice, so maybe you just get the crits the old fashioned way after you neuter the main ******* in the enemy list.

Quickdraw, ASTS, FCS, Lightweight Frame = 33 points

Backdraft, VI, FCS = 30 points

37 points for a Kylo Wagon should give you some options.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Hey Krayt, your lack of preparation is showing. I know you hate the forums, but if you had read even one of the half dozen or so TIE/sf threads that have come up in the last month, you would have come across Quickdraw with A Score To Settle. It's one of the Empires very best pilots with a soft crit generating card at an amazing price.

The strength of this combo is that it's a freaking terrific combo all in its own, and Kylo makes it even better. The downside is that it only works on one enemy ship, but SFs throw a lot of re-rolled dice, so maybe you just get the crits the old fashioned way after you neuter the main ******* in the enemy list.

Quickdraw, ASTS, FCS, Lightweight Frame = 33 points

Backdraft, VI, FCS = 30 points

37 points for a Kylo Wagon should give you some options.

Preparation is for nerds! Just make things up and call everyone who disagrees with you wrong!

Hmm, that's interesting. 37 is really unfortunate, 38 gives you the "minimum" kylo shuttle I'd want to run. We can always drop LWF since we're just blinding people anyways, I guess. Worth trying!

6 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Preparation is for nerds! Just make things up and call everyone who disagrees with you wrong!

Hmm, that's interesting. 37 is really unfortunate, 38 gives you the "minimum" kylo shuttle I'd want to run. We can always drop LWF since we're just blinding people anyways, I guess. Worth trying!

Yeah, that's why I dropped LWF off Backdraft. The Command Shuttle isn't a Jumpmaster, though. It can't barrel roll, so you're only using Intel for the SF barrel rolls and to try and decide who to show the Dark Side. Not nothing, but not "fair" (Krayt definition).

Omicron Group Pilot, Mangler Cannon, Kylo, FCS = 30

You could pump more points into the aces compared to the Upsilon, but you still generate some, crits yourself.

20 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, that's why I dropped LWF off Backdraft. The Command Shuttle isn't a Jumpmaster, though. It can't barrel roll, so you're only using Intel for the SF barrel rolls and to try and decide who to show the Dark Side. Not nothing, but not "fair" (Krayt definition).

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

Omicron Group Pilot, Mangler Cannon, Kylo, FCS = 30

You could pump more points into the aces compared to the Upsilon, but you still generate some, crits yourself.

Man, I think coordinate with intel agent might be even less fair than blocking jumpmasters... When all your ships are pre-nerf whipser (or not, and you don't have to choose until after you know whether or not you should) you can do some stuff that is honestly obscene

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Man, I think coordinate with intel agent might be even less fair than blocking jumpmasters... When all your ships are pre-nerf whipser (or not, and you don't have to choose until after you know whether or not you should) you can do some stuff that is honestly obscene

Maybe. if so, LWF is expendable. If you don't want to use the point leftover for initiative, you could put Primed Thrusters on Quickdraw, so you could take red moves, and still get Coordinated Barrel Rolls (or your own Barrel Rolls) even with a few stress in play. Your attacks have FCS and A Score To Settle to modify them, so you can give a middle finger to stress.

Mangler shuttle sounds sneaky goof actually, we can still add advanced sensors to the shuttle and have points left for the rest of the list.

Intel Agent is love, intel agent is life! Setting the jumpmaster scenario aside (blocking with a large base is pretty easy as is), intel agent on a quadjumper is possibly one of the most fun to play/most abusive thing to play against. Getting to see your opponents dial, then wandering up into tractor range knowing that if you barrel roll them this way then they will bump, barrel roll them that way and they'll hit not 1 rock, but 2, or my personal favorite, knowing that if you boost them forward they're now doomed to fly off the board. If you really want to change the game, running a large base blocker (like a Decimator, just call him Oicunn) with Boshek and Intel agent on board. Getting to see the opponents dial before having to decide to Boshek (after the initial ramming maneuver of course) turns X Wing into Wheel of Fortune. Watching your opponent sweat while trying to set his dial to something that won't proper **** him when you move (but will you move it?!?!) is delicious.

Also, Kylo is awful. I think everyone has defaulted to RAC because 1) easy crit generator 2) the large base makes applying Kylo and getting a shot to apply the crit easier and 3) a large base turret makes that even easier. Plus the gunner/Vader pairing makes aces hate him even more. Most other Imperial crew carriers can't reliably point their arc at the enemy (looking at you, Lambda). I mean, heck, with Dauntless Kylo can still be applied while being blocked.

The Kylo shuttle is a cute way to generate the effect, especially with Palp on board to give your opponent reason/need to shoot at the shuttle, and the shuttle even has an EPT slot to add A Score to Settle to help generate crits with those delicious 4 dice rolls. Plus coordinate is a hilarious thing. One of the guys out of Atlanta was using a Delta defender as a blocker at PS 1, then using the shuttle coordinate at PS 6 to (hopefully) barrel roll the defender off of his block to be set up with a range 1 shot. I think a lot of really inventive combinations/playstyles are still waiting to be discovered in the game, people are just so caught up in the muh jumpmasters, muh Biggs, muh Sabine worry to take the time to find them.

The reason Kylo crew is on RAC is because Kylo crew only makes any particular sense on RAC.

56 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The reason Kylo crew is on RAC is because Kylo crew only makes any particular sense on RAC.

This, basically. I've seen him flown a few times on other ships, and what happens is he dies. He's an obvious first target on a squishy ship, so he dies. RAC's the only crew ship in the Imp arsenal that isn't super squishy AND has a decent dial AND is bump proof AND is a turret. Maybe the Upsilon with Advanced Sensors, but the lack of a turret makes it really difficult for that third-plus of your list to contribute in a meaningful way other than Kylo, and it needs to for you to win.

But also, I've experienced the Intel Agent thing, with a Defender versus Scouts. It was super demoralising, especially given that the Scout in question had 1hp left, and the previous round, with it on 1 agi, shooting with a TIE that had just K turned and still had Crack Shot... I blanked out entirely. Sometimes swing is a swine.

Assuming Corran's alone, he's lost that match, but that would probably be true if it was just him and Fenn. Mana just makes it quicker.

The Jump is still way too good a blocker though. That dial plus barrel roll is just crazytown.

10 hours ago, Brunas said:

So, first off, let's talk about intelligence agent. Of all the crazy things you can do in combo-wing, intel agent might be the most abusive. Especially on Jumpmasters, there comes a point in games in which a blocking jumpmaster (especially with Ion Projector) devolves the game into a single-player scenario. Your opponent selects a maneuver, and then you are guaranteed to block it after seeing it, with a 50% chance for them to be ionized but even if it doesn't go off they're likely guaranteed to be blocked next turn. I made an approximation of the random scenario I watched last week because it was on my mind, but these scenarios come up almost every game, especially against large base ships.

This is exactly why I ran Dash/Eaden for 2016 regionals season. Aside from the lack of a white sloop, the yt-2400 has an incredibly good dial. I'd intel agent from Eaden, then use either Dash or Eaden to block an ace and HLC it with the other yt-2400. It was the only way I could come up with in rebels to fight jumpmasters and palp aces. The whole season I only lost to 1 deadeye scouts list (that didnt fire a single torp) and 1 palp aces list.

5 hours ago, SOTL said:

The reason Kylo crew is on RAC is because Kylo crew only makes any particular sense on RAC.

What is the commonest RAC/Kylo crew build? And who is normally the wingman?

I listened to the podcast this morning. In regards to "why Imperial players are bad", I think you're right about x7s making people bad. I also think Soontir is hugely to blame. I started running him a few months ago, after never running him in several years of play, and he's been hilariously effective, in a supposedly "Soontir is bad" meta. This is with Targeting Computer, and no Palp. In my lists, he's just a fast gun, and he's killing people hard and providing a counter to turrets.

Maybe I'm not used to Immortal Soontir, so I risk him and I don't get all weepy when he dies, but I can see someone that only played him sucking hard at lots of other ships.

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I listened to the podcast this morning. In regards to "why Imperial players are bad", I think you're right about x7s making people bad. I also think Soontir is hugely to blame. I started running him a few months ago, after never running him in several years of play, and he's been hilariously effective, in a supposedly "Soontir is bad" meta. This is with Targeting Computer, and no Palp. In my lists, he's just a fast gun, and he's killing people hard and providing a counter to turrets.

Maybe I'm not used to Immortal Soontir, so I risk him and I don't get all weepy when he dies, but I can see someone that only played him sucking hard at lots of other ships.

I think the Kraytkast exaggerates things being bad. Soontir doesn't have Palp anymore, give or take, can't handle Asajj well, gets dumpstered by bombs, gets blocked by intel scouts, and still does all his old tricks to everything else. He's not bad, he will never be bad, but a couple bad matchups for him have cropped up.

This means he is bad for a tournament, because you will hit one of those bad matchups in a cut. He is still painfully good in 80% of your games.

12 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I think the Kraytkast exaggerates things being bad. Soontir doesn't have Palp anymore, give or take, can't handle Asajj well, gets dumpstered by bombs, gets blocked by intel scouts, and still does all his old tricks to everything else. He's not bad, he will never be bad, but a couple bad matchups for him have cropped up.

This means he is bad for a tournament, because you will hit one of those bad matchups in a cut. He is still painfully good in 80% of your games.

I get what you're saying, but Krayts aren't alone in saying he's dead in the water. Other podcasts are saying it like the sky is blue. He's only 34 points, and is amazing at what he does. You've got 66 points to cover those weaknesses.

14 hours ago, Brunas said:

Hi again forums, we're having a moderately worrying string of content going on, so I figured I'd share our discussion.

Here's the actual podcast, but I'll give you the summary too

So, first off, let's talk about intelligence agent. Of all the crazy things you can do in combo-wing, intel agent might be the most abusive. Especially on Jumpmasters, there comes a point in games in which a blocking jumpmaster (especially with Ion Projector) devolves the game into a single-player scenario. Your opponent selects a maneuver, and then you are guaranteed to block it after seeing it

This scenario is a problem, because Corran thinks he is playing the game, but he really isn't anymore. The Manaroo player is guaranteed to deny Corran's actions and likely just kill him here, no matter what Corran sets on his dial, because of Intelligence agent.

Shhhhh, you're spilling my secrets (OK, the Ion bit is new, I haven't used that). Thankfully I'm done flying my take on Parattanni again for a while (sub out Manaroo for Scout + Intel + rigged Cargo), as I went 6-0 and won my SC with it.

Carry on.

P.S. I <3 Intel agent.