So, I played the game for the first time this weekend and, while testing Lion, I quickly noticed an extremely troubling trend.

I didn't really value Akodo Toturi in game. I was much MUCH happier with the Lion's Pride Brawler, the Honored General and Matsu Beiona, as well as the low cost characters (especially the deathseeker, that character is crazy awesome).

What I struggled with Toturi was this:

He's best when he's claiming a ring on military. But there's one major problem...Lion doesn't need him to win military. At all.

In fact, if you're buying him, you aren't buying 2 to 3 characters that can win a military ring just as easily as him, but with less risk.

Between Way of the Lion, Honored Blade, Guidance of the Ancestor, Honored General and their stronghold they have virtually no issue winning military conflicts.

And, more to the point, they have so many cards, such as their stronghold, Strength in Numbers, For Greater Glory, Honored General and Matsu Beiona that greatly benefit having several small characters rather than one or two large characters...

He just felt so out of place.

Now, granted, I was playing against Crane (as those are the only two clans right now), and winning military against them is roughly akin to pushing a small child into the mud, so maybe against Crab or a Lion mirror match, he'll become better. But during the games I played, I couldn't help but feel like what he offered didn't nearly make up what having 2 2 to 3 costers would do for me, generally speaking.

It also doesn't help that, using the Ring of Fire, Way of the Crane and Noble Sacrifice, Crane has one of the most...easy to accomplish PKs in the game so far. But still haha.

What do you guys think? Have you experienced the same? Or is my play group just not using him correctly?

Just now, Joe From Cincinnati said:

So, I played the game for the first time this weekend and, while testing Lion, I quickly noticed an extremely troubling trend.

I didn't really value Akodo Toturi in game. I was much MUCH happier with the Lion's Pride Brawler, the Honored General and Matsu Beiona, as well as the low cost characters (especially the deathseeker, that guy is crazy awesome).

Matsu Tsuko approved - just grunt rush. Don't even put Toturi in your deck. In fact - just take a permanent marker and cross out his name. Scribble "Matsu Tsuko was here" and send it in to FFG.

You don't buy Toturi. You Call him.

3 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

You don't buy Toturi. You Call him.

That's exactly my point haha. He's not worth purchasing. He fits their scheme that poorly.

Lion don't need Toturi to win Military, but he allows them to set up winning Politics much easier, either via double honouring through Fire, drawing/discarding extra cards through Earth or straightening an extra guy to secure the Favour through Water. Any costly Unique is unlikely to fit in with Lion's swarm builds, which is the main type of deck we've seen pushed for them in the Core set. Any Clan Champ level Personality is going to have a hard time justifying their price when compared to the ludicrously cheap Military options Lion have available. It's entirely possible he won't see play in Constructed initially, but that's okay- if Lion end up getting a deck that pushes having a few bigger guys over a swarm of cheap throwaways he'll be the perfect addition, as just as he will in any potential honour runner due to double Air/Fire.

I personally hoped for Spiricalling him into the battlefield by discarding him from provinces, but I think it was mentioned in a livestream that when you decide to "drop" the current province card, it's shuffled back to your deck instead of being sent to discard pile :<.

29 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

That's exactly my point haha. He's not worth purchasing. He fits their scheme that poorly.

He doesn't fit their scheme of recalling their ancestors with their inane ancestor worship? I don't understand.

My lion deck is a bunch of low cost mooks. But the greatest generals and tactician of the past come to us with guidance.

3 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

He doesn't fit their scheme of recalling their ancestors with their inane ancestor worship? I don't understand.

My lion deck is a bunch of low cost mooks. But the greatest generals and tactician of the past come to us with guidance.

I'm not saying he's a bad card. I'm saying he doesn't fit the theme. In order to be part of theme, presumably, they should be worth the fate you're supposedly spending on them.

The spiritcaller can bring a character into play and, generally, just being a fresh body is value enough. Being a 6/3 that double claims a ring for free is just better value than normal.

But the fact remains that the theme doesn't care to purchase him which, to me, means he doesn't fit the theme.

I've also felt the same way. Hotaru is a hands down closer for Crane - generally if you see her you buy her and wreck some things. She has great clan support in the way of control.

Toturi? I want him to work but a majority of the time I ignore him or force him out.

...My prediction about him being a better Hotaru due to in Clan support for Bushi has, thus far, been wrong. However, I'm eyeing that Big Lion deck once we get out of Core.

I think Lion in general will be better out of Core when it can focus on small smarm or big guy(s) instead of this awkward no man's land of midrange (splashes may help too but the major issue is the dynasty deck).

Also keep in mind duels and other actions/ abilities that may force you into 1 vs 1 combat. I would think Toturi would prove more effective I those situations than your smaller units. Or have you been encountering those situations and find that's not the case?

I think swarm is actually kind of a red herring for Lion. I've had my most success putting resources into big dudes and POL dudes and just letting the swarm guys fill out turns. Obstinate Recruit is great because free, but I would rate Toturi/General/Brawler over the other cheap MIL guys.

As with any of the power characters so far, Brawler/Hotaru/Doji Challenger, he's more effective going first. I think that will hold true for most everyone, since choosing that first ring is so important. Toturi going first paired with one or more Brawlers creates blow out turns.

Toturi + Sashimono is probably the scariest thing available right now. It seems like it would warp any match against military-first clans, even going second. That's a blow out waiting to happen if a MIL clan walks into Toturi + Sashimono (+ Way of the Lion). It even dominates Crane barring a Noble Sacrifice combo, and that can be played around with stuff like Steward of Law or Reprieve.

Essentially, I think Crane is probably the worst match-up for Toturi and he's still pretty good. If it turns out Shameful Display can't be played with Art of Peace, that would dramatically reduce Crane's ability to deal with him. I haven't played mirror matches but he seems like he would just be terrifying between Sashimono and the difficulty hitting him with Brawler.

Matsu Beiona is the Lion card that has been most useless to me. I only like her if I get her free with Eiji.

1 hour ago, WHW said:

I personally hoped for Spiricalling him into the battlefield by discarding him from provinces, but I think it was mentioned in a livestream that when you decide to "drop" the current province card, it's shuffled back to your deck instead of being sent to discard pile :<.

what? in the latest one? ugh it makes spiritcaller and eiji so much weaker :/

I might be misremembering it though. It could be talking about mulliganing.

The only mention about it in the latest video is during the mulligan discussion.

My money is still on Toturi long term, he has better in clan synergy so far. My main knock thus far is that he doesn't really fit into the Swarmy Lion - this doesn't mean he's not good but it's a different playstyle.

The Sashimono + Toturi plays referenced above are the PERFECT example of this - that's 7-9 fate in one character! The polar opposite of swarm!

You bet he's going to rock in Big Lion but the issue right now is Dynasty deck consistency and I don't feel his dynasty deck props him up for success like Hotaru's does out of Core.

3 hours ago, WHW said:

I personally hoped for Spiricalling him into the battlefield by discarding him from provinces, but I think it was mentioned in a livestream that when you decide to "drop" the current province card, it's shuffled back to your deck instead of being sent to discard pile :<.

That is only during the mulligan at the beginning of the game.

During normal gameplay, discard means discard.

3 hours ago, Reiga said:

You bet he's going to rock in Big Lion but the issue right now is Dynasty deck consistency and I don't feel his dynasty deck props him up for success like Hotaru's does out of Core.

I think this is something that the CCG players will have to learn and live with while moving to the LCG. Some cards, often entire archetypes, may become relevant only months (some even years) after their release. There may be cards in the core set that will be playable consistenly only at the end of the first cycle, or after the clan's Deluxe. It's part of FFG's distribution model, that like it or not makes the meta quite slow in evolving.

Regarding Toturi specifically, I can see it working quite well with the right clan splash and neutrals. Will such deck be stronger than the main Lion swarm out of the box? Hard to say, but I'm confident that this time we may see more flexibility in deckbuilding than other LCG's core sets

-Eh.

Like many / most things in this game, it seems to depend on the ever0changing board state. I've had a couple of games where Toturi was definitely not as useful as, say, a General and a Brawler. However, I've had just as many games where Toturi was key. I've used his ability to double-use Fire (to offset Crane's dishonoring my guys, though granted that included Toturi himself), Water (to be able to defend and save a province), and Air. That last one - +4 honor is a lot in this game - actually gave me an honor victory.

Now, to be fair, this is all against Crane. Who knows what tactics will make sense when Lion faces Dragon, Crab, etc.

FFG is just following a long-standing Lion tradition of having the Clan Champion be too expensive to feel like a good fit for the deck.

We have been play-testing for about two weeks now and are starting to have a similar opinion, unless you're really late in the game (win-more scenario) he's really much better being brought into play through one of your other actions. Hitting a purchased Toturi with a Pacifism is a pretty significant 'loss' of Fate, effectively neutering the Champion. Friend of mine scooped today after seeing one in my The Perfect Gift spread.

30 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

FFG is just following a long-standing Lion tradition of having the Clan Champion be too expensive to feel like a good fit for the deck.

If it's Lion, it must fit with tradition lol

As for the OP's original question (bascially, "Does Toturi fit into Swarm?") the answer may in fact be "no," but that could very well be a deliberate game design choice; by making a champion fit specifically into one theme, that can sometimes preclude the champion from being useful at all in decks that focus on other themes. Perhaps Toturi is meant to just be a good card in general (as his stats and ability are still quite decent) so that he can see play in other deck themes down the road, too.

doible fire or air is pretty big at times.

Toturi fits the swarm in the weird way that while you get Hotaru rolling, you want 2 or 3 fate on her, but Toturi is fine with 0 fate on him because you know you can extend his lifespan with reanimator tech once he gets into graveyard.

Well he was always going to be a problem to run. If you're going for swarm you don't usually want to put an amount the could buy two bodies onto one body.

But we all know Spiritcaller is the true Champion of the Lion Deck.

Which, ironically, is the card that makes the Champion worth running cause you can just spunk him onto the battlefield because that card is broken.