Hi all, I just wanted tomake sure I am able to combo Destiny and It Binds All Things, effectively using a 2 value blue die to bring out a 3 cost blue upgrade. I believe it would work, just not 100% confident. Anyone else have a ruling on this?

It Binds All Things:

"Before you play a Blue upgrade, you may exhaust this support to decrease its cost by 1."

Destiny:

"Remove any number of your Blue dice. Play a card from your hand for free that costs equal to or less than the combined value of the Blue dice you just removed."

The word "before" makes me think that this synergy works. Destiny makes you remove dice, so if you're playing Force Throw, let's say you remove dice adding up to two. Now, Destiny says to play a card from your hand. At this point, IBAT can trigger to reduce the cost (since it's before you play the Force Throw). Then you play the Force Throw, which now costs 2, fulfilling the last requirement of Destiny, which is that the upgrade must cost equal to the dice removed.

So yeah, I think this combo is perfectly legal, but perhaps someone else thinks otherwise? There's nothing in the Rules Reference about this combo.

I assume it does. I don't think Destiny makes any distinction between 'played' and 'put into play' that some other games do; I think all cards like Destiny, Imperial Armoury etc just play the card, so I don't see any reason why IBAT shouldn't work.

How about replacing an old upgrade with Destiny? Do you still reduce the cost of the upgrade you play?

• Playing an Upgrade: The player chooses and attaches the upgrade to a character by placing it next to or below that character. Before paying the cost to play an upgrade, the player can choose to replace an upgrade that is already on the chosen character. The cost to play the new upgrade is decreased by the cost of the old upgrade, and the old upgrade is discarded when the new one comes into play. If the old upgrade costs equal to or more than the one replacing it, then the new upgrade is free.

Really not sure about this one.

Replying to first 3 post:

Humm, I don't think this work.

When you play "destiny", you actually have to do the first part (Remove dice), then you get to play the card (Free). The fact that "it bind all things" interrupt the flow of event, and its effect place itself "before" the destiny effect won't change the fact that you already had to remove your dice when you played "destiny".

Even if we overthink a little bit more:

" A player can attempt to play a card even if they do not currently have the resources for it, as the cost printed on the card can be altered by in-game effects. "

But "Destiny" ask for dice, not ressources anyway...

Chak

I asked FFG about this earlier concerning Destiny replacing an upgrade. It works, same should apply for any other cost reduction.

Yeah, now I'm not so sure about it. I think Chakan's logic is sound - the way Destiny is worded it shouldn't work (the game doesn't know you're going to reduce the cost when you remove the dice). But cost reduction would still work with other effects like Imperial Armory.

But then Lukas' ruling pretty much says it works because it does?

As long as it is printed as faq in next rulebook i'm fine with it!

(or a rework of "play" sequence)

The reasoning as to why I think the combo would work is because Destiny says "play a card from your hand equal to or less than the value". If it had said "choose a card in your hand whose value is equal to or less than the value, then play it" IBAT would not allow you to play a three cost upgrade at the expense of a 2 value die. The same would apply to replacing the upgrade.

Ahhh I think most here might be missing a crucial part of how the card "destiny" works. For reference here's the wording again, emphasis mine:

Destiny:

"Remove any number of your Blue dice. Play a card from your hand for free that costs equal to or less than the combined value of the Blue dice you just removed."

I fail to see how a card that makes upgrades cost less resources to play can somehow benefit you when an event card effect is allowing you to play the upgrade for FREE.

And as a follow up to the inevitable rebuttals, no IBAT does not magically make the +2 melee dice you just removed as part of Destiny's resolution magically become a +3 melee.

Happy to have someone explain anything I'm missing but it actually seems pretty cut and dry, you remove dice and get a number from the dice removed, then you may play a card that cost equal to or less than that number, there are no resources spent and no resource discounts available to modify the way destiny works.

Having said that the email reply from Lukas above seems to completely override a bunch of what I said so I guess the rules really are just Whatever he says at this point.

A free card is free regardless of cost. I think what people are debating here is the part of the sentence right after that:

In that regard the question becomes does the word "cost" have a specific meaning, is it the printed value on the card? Is it the final value after modifies have been added? I would take it to mean the printed value, but because the RRG doesn’t actually specify its open to interpretation. Edit: having said that cards like "Friends in low places" would infer the printed value is the cost.

Edit 2: Actually the RRG dos have a definition of "cost":

COST (ALSO APPEARS ON SUPPORTS AND UPGRADES)

The cost of a card is listed in the upper-left hand corner of the card. A player must spend resources equal to the cost of a card in order to play it.

The next question is at what point do values get locked in, the mind probe vs. Dooku precedent tells us that as soon as the card/effect is played the values are locked in (i.e the ruling in that case was that if the original value of mind probe was 4, even if dooku discards for his "before" effect the value of the damage remains at 4 even though the cards in the dooku players hand is only 3 when the damage is assigned).

if we were to apply the same logic the cost of the card/upgrade should be locked in as soon as destiny gets played, in the example above 4 resource cost for one with the force, so it should stay at 4 regardless of what effects happen after the fact.

Lastly, under the circumstances above if they were to work (well, as they do because Lukas said so), overwriting still shouldn’t work, when you play destiny, the effect doesn’t know you are overwriting to reduce the cost, all it knows is that the OWTF cost 4 resources not that it will cost 2 if you happen to do this other thing in the future.

Maybe I say I'm going to overwrite so I only need a value of 2, I resolve destiny with a value of 2 and put my OWTF into play, at this point there's actually nothing that says I have to overwrite at this point.

Clearly I'm being facetious on that last staement, but the point remains any effect that potentially changes because of something you might do in the future should not be factored in to the resolution of the event, just in the same way Probe vs. Dooku works.

You exhaust IBAT before playing the upgrade even tho its in the middle of Destiny's action. So yes you can combo it.

As for the upgrade over another upgrade, yes it works. When overriding an upgrade, you play it first, then pay the cost difference. So in order for the 2nd upgrade to even have a cost, you must play it first.

People think in this game you pay resources then play the card, however you play the cards then for it to resolve/take action, you pay the resource cost.

~D

2 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

In that regard the question becomes does the word "cost" have a specific meaning, is it the printed value on the card? Is it the final value after modifies have been added? I would take it to mean the printed value, but because the RRG doesn’t actually specify its open to interpretation. Edit: having said that cards like "Friends in low places" would infer the printed value is the cost.

Edit 2: Actually the RRG dos have a definition of "cost":

COST (ALSO APPEARS ON SUPPORTS AND UPGRADES)

The cost of a card is listed in the upper-left hand corner of the card. A player must spend resources equal to the cost of a card in order to play it.

The next question is at what point do values get locked in

Cost can be modified by any number of effects. It's never "locked in", and it's still the cost even if it gets modified unless an ability refers to the printed cost. Your rather twisted logic here would prevent any cost modification abilities, including the rule for replacing upgrades, from working.

Someone mentioned above the difference between "Pick a card from your hand that costs X, and play it" vs. "Play a card from your hand that costs X". The actual wording of Destiny points pretty strongly to the cost being the cost to play the card, not the printed cost of the card. Lukas' response pretty much confirms it.

I really don't see what the confusion here is. It's one thing to draw on barely-connected precedent (like Mind Probe's resolution) when trying to figure out what to do, but digging for them to justify something that's completely opposite the ruling seems a bit extreme.

So does the fact that you are can possibly overwrite another upgrade in play actually change the cost of an upgrade that is still in your hand? Because the way destiny is worded the cost of the card in hand must be equal to or lower than the numbers on the dice removed before you play it.

So now OWTF actually costs 2 while still in your hand because of something you might do once you start to play it? Remember it has to cost 2 before it leaves you hand to be a legal target for Destiny in the example above.

If this is the case (and it seems that Lukas has said as much) fine, ill deal with I but it still feels wrong.

Edit: Also from page 13 of the RRG, it clearly tells you that when you play an upgrade you place it on the character before you pay the cost, and at that time you may replace an existing upgrade with the new one, reducing the cost of the upgrade well after it has left your hand.

••Playing an Upgrade: The player chooses and attaches the

upgrade to a character by placing it next to or below that

character. Before paying the cost to play an upgrade, the

player can choose to replace an upgrade that is already

on the chosen character. The cost to play the new upgrade

is decreased by the cost of the old upgrade, and the old

upgrade is discarded when the new one comes into play. If

the old upgrade costs equal to or more than the new one,

then the new upgrade is free.

So the new upgrade must be in play before the old upgrade is discarded to reduce the cost when replacing an old upgrade with a new one meaning the cost reduction cannot happen while the card is in your hand which is when it needs to happen for the OWTF to "cost 2" before you play it.

Funnily enough this does actually mean that IBAT works because its a "before" effect which does actually reduce the cost of an upgrade before you actually play it, so I humbly apologize for that, but overwriting/replacing shouldn't work in the current rules framework even if the game designer says it does.

Actually scratch all, that I'm not going to win this one so I will just let it go and concede defeat.

6 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

So the new upgrade must be in play before the old upgrade is discarded to reduce the cost when replacing an old upgrade with a new one meaning the cost reduction cannot happen while the card is in your hand which is when it needs to happen for the OWTF to "cost 2" before you play it.

You're reading this as a strict time ordering, but it's not. The rule says Once a card’s cost has been paid, the card is resolved based on its type . If you try to read this as fully linear, replacing upgrades doesn't work at all, no matter how they're being paid for.

They key is this: Before paying the cost to play an upgrade , the player can choose to replace an upgrade ... Cost is paid before you resolve the upgrade. If you're paying the cost by replacing an upgrade, the cost change happens before you play the card. So the reason you say it works with It Binds All Things - because that is a before effect - also applies to a replaced upgrade.

When you resolve Destiny, you do so by playing a card with specific restrictions. Again, the phrasing probably matters a lot - it's not "Pick a card that costs X or less. Play that card." It's "Play a card that costs X or less." You play a card for free, with a specific restriction on the card you play. Because the cost discount rule is a before effect, it modifies the cost of the card before you actually play it, and before the cost limitation is even considered.

If you're really determined to find any way to make this not work, you could hang a lot on that "Before paying the cost" bit, and argue that you're not paying the cost since it's free. But if you want to go that route, you couldn't replace an upgrade with Destiny at all, because picking an upgrade and replacing it is all from that specific trigger. And honestly you then wouldn't be able to replace an upgrade with something that was free or cost less even if you intended to play it normally (because again, free, so no trigger). But since the rules explicitly call out that you can reduce the cost to nothing, that isn't right.

I think I understand now:

"Remove any number of your Blue dice. Play a card from your hand for free that COSTS equal to or less than the combined value of the Blue dice you just removed."

At first i didnt realise the word cost was there Combined with the fact that you play the card:

So mechanically speaking, you could assume the "free" gonna cost you 2 dice even if at first, it would be 3 when you first play the card.

Luka's answer helped us, but it's interresting to know that we can achieve this conclusion with the rules.

2 hours ago, Chakan99939 said:

Luka's answer helped us, but it's interresting to know that we can achieve this conclusion with the rules.

This is important. I'll be the first to admit that FFG is more than willing to make rulings which aren't actually based in the rules when it suits them. But once you do know the ruling, the first effort should always be to figure out what you missed. Maybe you have to squint really hard to see the why, or be pretty generous with the way you read certain rules, but finding a way to make it all work together should be the goal.

Well this definitely makes destiny way more playable.

The Card Destiny uses the value of the removed dice, not the number of blue dice. The question posed to lucas about it seems incorrect as it doesn't matter how many dice you remove, it lonely matters the total value of those dice.

I am worried about the answer he gave, when the question itself is flawed and even he(lucas) didn't catch it.

Here is what I want to know. If I have luke with jedi robes on him. His dice are showing 2 melee, 2 melee. Can I play destiny, remove one 2 melee side and replace jedi robes with Mind probe?

50 minutes ago, Marshal8 said:

Here is what I want to know. If I have luke with jedi robes on him. His dice are showing 2 melee, 2 melee. Can I play destiny, remove one 2 melee side and replace jedi robes with Mind probe?

This is legal, as far as we know.

Edit: never mind, just saw that you also started a new thread

1 hour ago, Marshal8 said:

The Card Destiny uses the value of the removed dice, not the number of blue dice. The question posed to lucas about it seems incorrect as it doesn't matter how many dice you remove, it lonely matters the total value of those dice.

I am worried about the answer he gave, when the question itself is flawed and even he(lucas) didn't catch it.

Yeah, I realized this a lot later, but I don't think it has any impact on the question or the result. The core issue here comes down to whether cost modifications apply to the cost of the card, or whether it has to be just the printed cost. Whether the limit is number of dice or total value of the dice doesn't affect that.