42 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Everything you have written here is wrong.

Can someone please close and lock this thread? There is zero value to it. At this point, we're just showcasing a variety of new reading comprehension errors.

It at the very least qualifies as a frequently asked question . FFG will be the only folks able to convince a large population what the correct usage is (or errata it, if they truly intended something different).

Agreed. As I said to a friend earlier today, can we please just get a FAQ already so I can stop re-explaining this argument in different places?

3 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Everything you have written here is wrong.

Can someone please close and lock this thread? There is zero value to it. At this point, we're just showcasing a variety of new reading comprehension errors.

It at the very least qualifies as a frequently asked question . FFG will be the only folks able to convince a large population what the correct usage is (or errata it, if they truly intended something different).

Would you care to elaborate. I dont mind being told im wrong if i am but i certainly like to know why.

Point A: This is an hypotectical situation. I dont believe thats how it works. Hence why i use "would" everywhere.

Point B: Please tell me how this would be wrong. Currently we have no FAQ telling us how minefield interact with extra ammo. Extra ammo says word for word: " When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead ". Unless it's my translation thats wrong (could be, it's my second language), what is after instead replaces what is before. So with extra ammo discarding a bomb card = discarding a token. Minefield mapper says: " you may discard any number of your equipped "bomb" Upgrade cards". Now logic would tell me that if you can discard any number of upgrade card AND dicarding a token is the same as discarding an upgrade card, then you have 4 "cards" to discard.

Remember, you are not discarding the bomb cards by using the ability on the card. You are not actually using the bomb upgrade. You are just discarding as a "cost" (i know its not really a cost) to use minefield ability and place the token on the field. It's not using the same upgrade (bomb) twice (not even once)...

No. You have two cards. When asked to pick any number of your cards, you can pick 0, 1, or 2.

22 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Minefield mapper says: " you may discard any number of your equipped "bomb" Upgrade cards". Now logic would tell me that if you can discard any number of upgrade card AND dicarding a token is the same as discarding an upgrade card, then you have 4 "cards" to discard.

Maybe this but is the issue: discarding a token isn't the same as discarding an upgrade card, it's an effect that happens when you discard a card. It's a sequential thing, not a replacement effect.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. You have two cards. When asked to pick any number of your cards, you can pick 0, 1, or 2.

It doesnt say to pick a card, it's says to discard an upgrade card which is then replaced with discarding a token by extra ammo. I honestly dont understand how this needs a FAQ. Everything is quite clear. Every time you deploy a bomb token with minefield you are not using the bomb. Otherwise it would be worded: " you may USE as many bomb upgrades as you want but can place the tokens anywhere in the play area beyond range 3 of a ship". That is not how the card is worded at all. A bomb token is an entity of it's own. What it does is not specified by the upgrade card but by the game rules. Minefield is now a new type of card that allows you to place bomb tokens on the field just like a bomb upgrade would.

3 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

Maybe this but is the issue: discarding a token isn't the same as discarding an upgrade card, it's an effect that happens when you discard a card. It's a sequential thing, not a replacement effect.

Extra ammo states word for word that you can replace "discard a card" by "discard a token" by using the word instead . Minefield mapper: you discard a card, extra ammo: replace discard a card by discard the token. If thats not how it works minefield would make you keep the token and discard the card. Doesnt make any sense.

39 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Extra ammo states word for word that you can replace "discard a card" by "discard a token" by using the word instead . Minefield mapper: you discard a card, extra ammo: replace discard a card by discard the token. If thats not how it works minefield would make you keep the token and discard the card. Doesnt make any sense.

Go back and read the other posts in this thread. The "sense" of most the ideas presented (on both sides) is dissected ad nauseam. There is no reason for anyone to repeat themselves, that's the wonderful thing about forums.

That, and whomever ends up being right can come back later and lord it over all the other mooks.

This is why I recommended this thread be closed (or at least ignored into oblivion) -- FFG will sort it out. Until then, if you have a question for an event you're attending, ask the TO ahead of time for their clarification. If you're playing casual, who gives a ****?

First if you read both cars it is perfectly legal to use both and place all bombs/mines. Second how many ships have all 3 slots for this combo. For you to really take advantage of this combo you need 2 bomb slots and mines. You also need to strategically place the mines in well and thought out positions. There is also the is issue that it all depends on the dice roles which leaves it to chance for a decent damage result. There a limited amount of ships that can really take advantage of this and even then they are easily hit and\or are designed to run away and then drop bombs. I have a build with 2 punishes with extra munition (though I am still practicing with the build) I can at best control their movement. Even then they can gladly risk a ship to clear the minefield. I think this debate has missed the previously mentioned issues. Sure this could be a good combom but there are not enough ships available to really benefit from it. The upgrade slots for this combo are too limieds and even then limit you to mines even to really take advantage of it.. I rhink it is pretty clear it is legal but even then how and when would you even use it. I am sure this may see tournament play but it will take a lot of skill to really take advantage of this combo, even then at a risk. You can easily be tractor beamed onto you mines or even bomb range. Sure it is a great combo but you guys have not considered the risk and/or cost to use this combo.

6 hours ago, Thormind said:

Extra ammo states word for word that you can replace "discard a card" by "discard a token" by using the word instead . Minefield mapper: you discard a card, extra ammo: replace discard a card by discard the token. If thats not how it works minefield would make you keep the token and discard the card. Doesnt make any sense.

No, it says that when you're told to discard a card, do something else. It doesn't change the text of Minefield Mapper.

During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards.

You're still told to discard a card, but if you have Extra Munitions then, and only then, you get to do something else instead:

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

Minefield Mapper doesn't suddenly become ' you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards [and Ordnance tokens].' Do what the cards say, don't do what they don't say.

That's what I meant by it be sequential - having 'instead' doesn't change the text of other cards, it just gives you the opportunity to change a game effect with another one when it has triggered.

57 minutes ago, biggun1460 said:

First if you read both cars it is perfectly legal to use both and place all bombs/mines.

That is entirely incorrect.

The normal bomb drop timing, the normal bomb drop sequence, and the normal bomb drop procedure do not apply to minefield mapper because:

1. Minefield Mapper's timing is "During setup. after the place forces step. This removes MM from the bomb drop timing that occurs during the activation phase of each round of play.

2. The normal bomb drop timing allows us to discard up to 1 'before the reveal' bomb upgrade card at the beginning of the activation phase, and it allows us to discard up to 1 'action' bomb upgrade card during the perform action step of the activation phase. At no time are we allowed to discard multiple bomb upgrade cards. MM tells us we "may discard any number of bomb upgrade cards". This removes MM from the normal bomb drop sequence and the normal bomb drop timing.

3. MM does not instruct us to drop bomb tokens in procedure described on the 'using bombs' reference card and pg 7 of the RR. MM instructs us to "place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area". This removes MM from the normal bomb drop procedure as well as the normal sequence and timing.

1 hour ago, player2641873 said:

The normal bomb drop timing, the normal bomb drop sequence, and the normal bomb drop procedure do not apply to minefield mapper because

I don't see how that changes the way MM and EM interact - they both just refer to discarding cards.

On 7/15/2017 at 5:24 AM, __underscore__ said:

it just gives you the opportunity to change a game effect with another one when it has triggered.

So mapper: discard any number of card, extra munition: discard a token instead of a card. There is no "opportunity" within the execution of minefield, nothing in the rules says otherwise. And minefield clearly says that you CAN discard any number of cards, it bypass the rule of 1 bomb/opportunity. If your logic is that you cant trigger extra ammo twice within the same opportunity (minefield), you would'nt even be able to use the 2 tokens and be left with 1 bomb to drop pre game. It wouldnt make any sense.

If removing a token replace discarding a card then it's just like you discarded 4 cards. And as per ALL the definition i could fin on google google, "instead of" does mean replacing something by another thing. If you eat (discard) an apple (a token) instead of an orange (an upgrade card), did you ever eat (discard) the orange???

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token (not use the bomb upgrade), extra ammo: discard a token instead

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, extra ammo: discard the second token instead

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, discard the card

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, discard the second card

You cant invent opportunities when there is none. Honestly minefield is useless (or almost) in standard play if it only lets you place 2 bombs per ship. You are paying 10 points to have 2 sets of cluster mines and extra ammo, it has to do something meaningful. On top of that depending on how you place the bombs and what you are facing, you can easily screw yourself as much as your opponent.

On 7/15/2017 at 9:07 AM, player2641873 said:

1. Minefield Mapper's timing is "During setup. after the place forces step. This removes MM from the bomb drop timing that occurs during the activation phase of each round of play.

2. The normal bomb drop timing allows us to discard up to 1 'before the reveal' bomb upgrade card at the beginning of the activation phase, and it allows us to discard up to 1 'action' bomb upgrade card during the perform action step of the activation phase. At no time are we allowed to discard multiple bomb upgrade cards. MM tells us we "may discard any number of bomb upgrade cards". This removes MM from the normal bomb drop sequence and the normal bomb drop timing.

3. MM does not instruct us to drop bomb tokens in procedure described on the 'using bombs' reference card and pg 7 of the RR. MM instructs us to "place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area". This removes MM from the normal bomb drop procedure as well as the normal sequence and timing.

Exactly! And when you discard the upgrade card you never used it. It's just a "cost" to use minefield ability to place a bomb token. Minefield never says to use the upgrade, just to discard it. Nowhere in the rules does it say that discarding a card is the same as using it. No matter how you look at it you are never using the same bomb twice nor are you discarding the same upgrade twice when you discard both the token and the bomb card.

I think this only really demonstrates that you haven't understood the opposition's argument.

What you haven't addressed is why it should be that you discard things until you're done and then count how many were discarded vs declaring how many are to be discarded and then discarding them. Both are perfectly plausible interpretations of the wording and we have absolutely no precedent to choose between them.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

There is no "opportunity" within the execution of minefield, nothing in the rules says otherwise. And minefield clearly says that you CAN discard any number of cards, it bypass the rule of 1 bomb/opportunity.

This is your opportunity: you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. If you have two Bomb cards, that's the number you can choose to discard.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

If your logic is that you cant trigger extra ammo twice within the same opportunity (minefield)

That isn't my logic. You can trigger Extra Munitions every time you are instructed to discard an upgrade card with a Ordnance token on it.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

If removing a token replace discarding a card then it's just like you discarded 4 cards. And as per ALL the definition i could fin on google google, "instead of" does mean replacing something by another thing. If you eat (discard) an apple (a token) instead of an orange (an upgrade card), did you ever eat (discard) the orange???

It doesn't replace it, the card text of Minefield Mapper stays the same. Extra Munitions gives you an ability that can replace the effect of discarding a card. You are still being instructed to discard a card.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token (not use the bomb upgrade), extra ammo: discard a token instead

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, extra ammo: discard the second token instead

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, discard the card

Minefield discard a card to place a bomb token, discard t

No, Minefield Mapper isn't written as a loop, it's written as a sequence. Choose a number of Bomb cards. Discard them. Place their tokens on the battlefield. Card Ends. There is no instruction to repeat that process.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Honestly minefield is useless (or almost) in standard play if it only lets you place 2 bombs per ship. You are paying 10 points to have 2 sets of cluster mines and extra ammo, it has to do something meaningful. On top of that depending on how you place the bombs and what you are facing, you can easily screw yourself as much as your opponent.

I dunno, I've played with and against it and each time being able top drop 2 tokens has dramatically affected the game. I recommend trying it before you knock it. But really this has no baring on the rules as written on the cards.

If you have 2 ships with 2 bombs and extra munitions and mine field mapper.

You have 4 bombs and 4 tokens.

You use mine field mapper

Target 0-4 bombs

Pay cost instead of discarding the bombs you discard 0-4 tokens

Why do people assume you can now go back and choose targets and pay cost again. Extra munitions tokens are not bombs there a means to not discard cards as a cost. Order of operations would be choose bombs, discard bombs, place bombs. Not say pick 4 pay cost, go back to choose number of bombs and pick 4 more and pay costs.

15 minutes ago, doji said:

If you have 2 ships with 2 bombs and extra munitions and mine field mapper.

You have 4 bomb s and 4 tokens.

No. You have 2 bombs. You said it yourself. You have 2 bombs, which you can potentially use twice each. Not four bombs.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. You have 2 bombs. You said it yourself. You have 2 bombs, which you can potentially use twice each. Not four bombs.

He's pretty clearly saying 2 ships, each with 2 bombs and 2 tokens.

I'm not saying there's a pattern I'm just saying usually when a thread in rules forum goes on for 3+ pages and it's basically all the 'regulars' agreeing against someone who ignores their arguments the FAQ usually (always?) sides with the majority.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. You have 2 bombs. You said it yourself. You have 2 bombs, which you can potentially use twice each. Not four bombs.

Read the wording on the cards..

Minefield mapper reads...

Quote

you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards

While Extra Munitions reads

Quote

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

Minefield is instructing you to discard an upgrade card, which you can discard a token instead. Thus having 2 mines + EM = 4 deploy-able mines.

Don't know how you guys are getting anything else out of this.

On 7/17/2017 at 1:10 PM, nigeltastic said:

I'm not saying there's a pattern I'm just saying usually when a thread in rules forum goes on for 3+ pages and it's basically all the 'regulars' agreeing against someone who ignores their arguments the FAQ usually (always?) sides with the majority.

Unfortunately, you've now opened yourself up to ridicule for following "group think" and stomping on individuality...

... Despite being entirely correct.

On 7/17/2017 at 2:01 PM, Lyianx said:

Don't know how you guys are getting anything else out of this.

Both sides have been explained, in detail. The logic behind both is clear.

This thread is now about the new "trailer" that dropped recently for The Last Jedi. Everyone please discuss and enjoy the new direction this hyper redundant thread has been given.

I, for one, got chills every time Carrie Fisher came on screen.

1 minute ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Funny, because everyone who agrees with you has also said this, which is really just admitting you all struggle with reading comprehension...

Really? I took text right off the card. Its clear as day what it says. If that doesn't say that to you, then it would appear you are the one with the reading comprehension problem.

Do what the card says, not what it doesn't.

Just now, Lyianx said:

Really? I took text right off the card. Its clear as day what it says. If that doesn't say that to you, then it would appear you are the one with the reading comprehension problem.

Do what the card says, not what it doesn't.

I don't recall anything about this in the "Jedi," trailer. I think you might have watched something else. Not to worry, you can find it here:

36 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Don't know how you guys are getting anything else out of this.

You are trading someone two of your Rebel Veteran Instincts cards for all of their Imperial Veteran Instincts cards.
They have two Imperial Veteran Instincts cards.
You give them two Rebel Veteran Instincts cards, they give you two Imperial Veteran Instincts cards.
The fact that they have a high-end color printer and make themselves two more Imperial Veteran Instincts cards later has nothing to do with your trade.