Ok, I'm all caught up with the thread (mostly). I think that I will play it as being able to drop 0, 1 or 2 bombs for the time being, but not just because the arguments here have convinced me of such.

It simply occured to me that dropping 2 bombs to mess up my opponent's initial plan is a good idea, but keeping the other 2 to mess up his plans down the road is also something cool

I personally think you will be allowed to use any cards and tokens you have with em. I believe the once per oppurtunity is explicitly overruled with the stated effect of mm "any number of your bomb upgrade cards.

Em states that when instructed to discard a bomb card you may instead discard a token. So when using mm you may use em to discard the token, and seeing as how mm states that you may discard any number then you will be able to use the card as well.

Just my opinion. I could see how this could b an issue. if someone deploys in the corner and their opponent can drop 4 sets of mines you could surround them seeing as how you could deploy 2 mines straight ahead, and then 2 in their deployment area beside them and beyond range 3. But if you are going against a list like this and you still deploy in the corner then its your fault if you get surrounded and take damage from mines. Also the effect of mm is offset by the fact that your opponent is not likely to hit any more than 1 mine/bomb, even if you deploy 4+ they can bypass most or all of them. Its more effective as a way to control movement of your enemy.

13 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

Ok, I'm all caught up with the thread (mostly). I think that I will play it as being able to drop 0, 1 or 2 bombs for the time being, but not just because the arguments here have convinced me of such.

It simply occured to me that dropping 2 bombs to mess up my opponent's initial plan is a good idea, but keeping the other 2 to mess up his plans down the road is also something cool

Yea it would be a good idea most of the time to keep one or 2 bombs to drop.

Question for the people who think EM lets you drop an extra bomb at deployment.

If minefield mapper is "forgetting" the bomb when it discards the EM token, or targets an EM token... What bomb token do you use?

What?

Here is how I see it: MMs process is a "for each upgrade card" sequence. For each upgradecard you ask "discard or not?" If you discard, then EM jumps i and can be discarded instead. But that is it, an EM token never acts as card, and therefor is no consideration in the "for each" process.

As I understand it; when I equip a bomb upgrade card to my ship, I am also equipping a corresponding bomb token (i.e. a proximity mine token with a proximity mine upgrade card; cluster mine tokens with a cluster mine upgrade card; no mixing). When I equip an extra munitions upgrade card, I assign an ordnance token to all of that ship's torpedo, missile,and bomb upgrade cards. The ordnance token represents an additional round of munitions for the upgrade card to which that ordnance token is assigned. In the case of bomb upgrade cards, that additional round of munitions is also represented by an additional bomb token (or tokens) that must CORRESPOND WITH THE BOMB UPGRADE CARD to which that ordnance token is assigned. Therefore a bomb upgrade card with an ordnance token assigned to it has twice as many corresponding bomb tokens as the same bomb upgrade card without the ordnance token. This is true regardless of when or even if those bombs are dropped.

Yes?

No?

No. You just have a Bomb upgrade card with a Munitions token on it. The bomb card allows you to drop a specified token, the munitions token allows you to discard it instead of the card when required. The tokens themselves are just part of the card effect, not the card itself.

2 hours ago, player2641873 said:

As I understand it; when I equip a bomb upgrade card to my ship, I am also equipping a corresponding bomb token (i.e. a proximity mine token with a proximity mine upgrade card; cluster mine tokens with a cluster mine upgrade card; no mixing). When I equip an extra munitions upgrade card, I assign an ordnance token to all of that ship's torpedo, missile,and bomb upgrade cards. The ordnance token represents an additional round of munitions for the upgrade card to which that ordnance token is assigned. In the case of bomb upgrade cards, that additional round of munitions is also represented by an additional bomb token (or tokens) that must CORRESPOND WITH THE BOMB UPGRADE CARD to which that ordnance token is assigned. Therefore a bomb upgrade card with an ordnance token assigned to it has twice as many corresponding bomb tokens as the same bomb upgrade card without the ordnance token. This is true regardless of when or even if those bombs are dropped.

Yes?

No?

No. You're reading way more into Extra Munitions than what it actually says. Extra Munitions doesn't magically create a duplicate of the card that the EM token is sitting on top of. It just is a valid substitute when discarding.

Your interpretation is like reading a recipe that says, "Use 1 cup of butter. If you like, you can substitute vegetable oil instead." and then thinking, "Aha! Because I can substitute vegetable oil for butter in this one specific context, vegetable oil IS butter!"

"any number" - you don't have 6 bombs, you have 3 with an extra munitions token on each. So for the mapper, you can only use 3 because that is what you have. You just don't discard each mine as you use them with the Mapper, you discard the Extra Munitions token, then trying to applying Mapper to the same bombs again will interfere with the "once per opportunity" rule as you're trying to deploy the same bomb again with the mapper and thats where it blocks.

To be honest I feel like this is less about 'once per opportunity' and more 'do what the card says, don't do what it doesn't say'.

14 hours ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

No. You're reading way more into Extra Munitions than what it actually says. Extra Munitions doesn't magically create a duplicate of the card that the EM token is sitting on top of. It just is a valid substitute when discarding.

Your interpretation is like reading a recipe that says, "Use 1 cup of butter. If you like, you can substitute vegetable oil instead." and then thinking, "Aha! Because I can substitute vegetable oil for butter in this one specific context, vegetable oil IS butter!"

I did not say the EM upgrade card creates a duplicate of the card the ORDNANCE TOKEN sits on. I said the ordnance token "represents" an additional round of munitions for the upgrade card it sits on. Those are two very different statements. The USE of an ordnance token is to be discarded instead of upgrade card it sits on, enabling an additional use of that card. That is HOW the ordnance token represents the additional round of munitions for its upgrade card.

Because the munitions for a bomb upgrade card are intended to be 'dropped' and left to detonate when or if the conditions for detonation occur, it has to have a physical representation that can be dropped in the play area and CORRESPONDS with the equipped bomb upgrade card. That physical representation is the bomb token. When a bomb upgrade card has an assigned ordnance token, the additional round of munitions also has to have a physical representation that can be dropped in the play area and CORRESPONDS with the bomb upgrade card the ordnance token is assigned to. It does NOT CORRESPOND with the ordnance token, because the ordnance token does NOT state what type of bomb it is. There is no 'substitution' going on. Substitution is prohibited by the words 'correspond' and 'corresponding' which require that the bomb tokens be of the same type as the bomb upgrade card that may trigger their drops.

I feel like you're overthinking it a bit, to be honest.

while there will need to be something in writing to say so, RAW is pretty clear. "instead" on the end of EM means you can use the token or the card attached to it at the time of trigger, not both.

1 hour ago, player2641873 said:

I did not say the EM upgrade card creates a duplicate of the card the ORDNANCE TOKEN sits on. I said the ordnance token "represents" an additional round of munitions for the upgrade card it sits on. Those are two very different statements. The USE of an ordnance token is to be discarded instead of upgrade card it sits on, enabling an additional use of that card. That is HOW the ordnance token represents the additional round of munitions for its upgrade card.

Because the munitions for a bomb upgrade card are intended to be 'dropped' and left to detonate when or if the conditions for detonation occur, it has to have a physical representation that can be dropped in the play area and CORRESPONDS with the equipped bomb upgrade card. That physical representation is the bomb token. When a bomb upgrade card has an assigned ordnance token, the additional round of munitions also has to have a physical representation that can be dropped in the play area and CORRESPONDS with the bomb upgrade card the ordnance token is assigned to. It does NOT CORRESPOND with the ordnance token, because the ordnance token does NOT state what type of bomb it is. There is no 'substitution' going on. Substitution is prohibited by the words 'correspond' and 'corresponding' which require that the bomb tokens be of the same type as the bomb upgrade card that may trigger their drops.

I think you're philosophically and abstractly right, but wrong in the concrete context of the game's logical and limited rules. I have not yet seen anyone give a solid reason why "choose any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards" should let you choose a number greater than the number of actual bomb cards you actually have equipped, given that we all agree that an EM token is not a card.

6 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

To be honest I feel like this is less about 'once per opportunity' and more 'do what the card says, don't do what it doesn't say'.

It is not about 'once per opportunity' or 'bomb drop timing'. What the card says is the issue. What qualifies as a corresponding bomb token? That is the real question. I think that a bomb token can only correspond with the bomb upgrade card that can trigger its drop and HAS TO correspond with that card regardless of whether it was assigned to the ship with the card or the ordnance token.

3 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

I think you're philosophically and abstractly right, but wrong in the concrete context of the game's logical and limited rules. I have not yet seen anyone give a solid reason why "choose any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards" should let you choose a number greater than the number of actual bomb cards you actually have equipped, given that we all agree that an EM token is not a card.

Please see my response to underscore above.

4 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

It is not about 'once per opportunity' or 'bomb drop timing'. What the card says is the issue. What qualifies as a corresponding bomb token? That is the real question. I think that a bomb token can only correspond with the bomb upgrade card that can trigger its drop and HAS TO correspond with that card regardless of whether it was assigned to the ship with the card or the ordnance token.

So what?

You can chose a card and drop its corresponding token.

Then, the card is discarded. At that point, the EM token intervenes and is discarded instead.

But then, Minefield Mapper's opportunity to resolve has passed, and you can't pick that card again.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

So what?

You can chose a card and drop its corresponding token.

Then, the card is discarded. At that point, the EM token intervenes and is discarded instead.

But then, Minefield Mapper's opportunity to resolve has passed, and you can't pick that card again.

I repeat 'bomb drop timing' is not relevant to minefield mapper. What is relevant is 'What qualifies as a corresponding bomb token?'.

4 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

It is not about 'once per opportunity' or 'bomb drop timing'. What the card says is the issue. What qualifies as a corresponding bomb token? That is the real question. I think that a bomb token can only correspond with the bomb upgrade card that can trigger its drop and HAS TO correspond with that card regardless of whether it was assigned to the ship with the card or the ordnance token.

The corresponding bomb token is just the bomb token the upgrade card tells you to drop - 'corresponding' isn't (from what I can see) a significant word in the rules, so it's just telling you to check the card to see what token to place on the game board.

Even so, each card only refers to one token (or group of tokens, in Cluster Mine's case) so it doesn't really matter either way - you can still only drop the number of bombs as you have upgrade cards.

11 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

I repeat 'bomb drop timing' is not relevant to minefield mapper. What is relevant is 'What qualifies as a corresponding bomb token?'.

You have a bomb upgrade card with an EM token on it.

It has a token, identified by its reference card.

You choose the bomb upgrade card with Minefield Mapper, and place the token as instructed.

The card is discarded.

The EM token is discarded instead.

Minefield Mapper is finished.

What part of this do you have a problem with?

3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

The corresponding bomb token is just the bomb token the upgrade card tells you to drop - 'corresponding' isn't (from what I can see) a significant word in the rules, so it's just telling you to check the card to see what token to place on the game board.

Even so, each card only refers to one token (or group of tokens, in Cluster Mine's case) so it doesn't really matter either way - you can still only drop the number of bombs as you have upgrade cards.

This is where we disagree. It seems 'corresponding' is a significant word on the MM card.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You have a bomb upgrade card with an EM token on it.

It has a token, identified by its reference card.

You choose the card with Minefield Mapper, and place the token as instructed.

The card is discarded.

The EM token is discarded instead.

Minefield Mapper is finished.

What part of this do you have a problem with?

What part of 'corresponding bomb tokens' do you have a problem with? I have already said the 'bomb drop timing' is irrelevant to MM.

Just now, player2641873 said:

What part of 'corresponding bomb tokens' do you have a problem with? I have already said the 'bomb drop timing' is irrelevant to MM.

I do not understand your issue. That's why I asked.

I have no problem with figuring out which bomb tokens correspond with which bomb upgrade cards, there's a handy reference card for each one to tell me that.

So again:

11 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

This is where we disagree. It seems 'corresponding' is a significant word on the MM card.

Why do you think that? I can't see any kind of X-Wing specific definition of it in the rules and I don't see any possible interaction it could have with Munitions tokens.

Edit: In fact: it's consistently used in the rulebook with it's dictionary definition. There's no reason to think it holds any more weight than that.