22 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

but I see the tokens as cards

You are making rules up. The tokens are things you can discard when you are instructed to discard the card they are on, instead of the card. No more, no less.

I should have been more clear, I mean in regards to discarding them, the tokens function as cards. Meaning they trigger effects that are triggered when discarded, and they can be used to pay the cost of activation of things. They are not a true equivalent of the cards of course ( they are not worth anything when calculating a ships value and such)

It is clear that both camps are steadfast in their mindset. We'll have to wait a little longer to see what FF has to say. I think the theme, and idea of not being able to deploy bombs that are effectively loaded onto your ship with a system designed for that very thing is a bit absurd, but if FF needs to use this to set precedent I'd understand.

2 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I should have been more clear, I mean in regards to discarding them, the tokens function as cards.

No, they don't.

All they do is let you discard them when the card they're on is discarded. No more, no less. They don't serve the function of the card, they have no purpose other than interrupting when the card would be discarded, and throwing themselves away instead.

None.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You are making rules up. The tokens are things you can discard when you are instructed to discard the card they are on, instead of the card. No more, no less.

I explained that, but really, this whole thing is people making up rules where this is none. The 'once per opportunity' does not apply as you can discard as many as you want, there is just this assumed rule that you can't spend the token and the card at the same time. There is no rule against it, there has just never been an opportunity to do it. That is not the once per, as you are not using the card's ability, just using it as payment.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

No, they don't.

All they do is let you discard them when the card they're on is discarded. No more, no less. They don't serve the function of the card, they have no purpose other than interrupting when the card would be discarded, and throwing themselves away instead.

None.

So you can't spend the token to power the MM? MM says you must discard bomb cards. If you just remove the tokens, and they don't in any way function as cards, then the payment has not been made.

In my Cloaking device/ Jabba example do you stay cloaked? If they interrupt discarding the card, and discarding the card triggers the forced decloak/removal of the cloak token.

Just now, xbeaker said:

So you can't spend the token to power the MM? MM says you must discard bomb cards. If you just remove the tokens, and they don't in any way function as cards, then the payment has not been made.

In my Cloaking device/ Jabba example do you stay cloaked? If they interrupt discarding the card, and discarding the card triggers the forced decloak/removal of the cloak token.

When MM attempts to discard the card, the token is discarded instead. MM can only attempt to discard each card once.

If the example you're thinking of is the one I'm thinking of, WRT Jabba and Cloaking Device, no. Discarding the card is not what triggers the decloak, rolling the eye result is.

" At the end of each round, if you are cloaked, roll 1 attack die. On a [eye] result, discard this card, then decloak or discard your cloak token. "

Both decloaking and discarding the card are triggered by the roll.

2 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

So you can't spend the token to power the MM? MM says you must discard bomb cards. If you just remove the tokens, and they don't in any way function as cards, then the payment has not been made.

In my Cloaking device/ Jabba example do you stay cloaked? If they interrupt discarding the card, and discarding the card triggers the forced decloak/removal of the cloak token.

This is all trivially answered by asking if Extra Munitions has ever worked as intended, i.e. to allow you to perform an attack that directs you to discard its card but keep the card around for another go round later. (Of course it works.)

If we're making up new rules, how about the rule that says when you're directed to choose from a concrete set of things you can choose each of those things as many times as you like?

"Who do you want to invite to your birthday party, Billy?"

"Just Timmy, but I want to invite him five times, so you'll need to make an extra cake."

Just now, digitalbusker said:

This is all trivially answered by asking if Extra Munitions has ever worked as intended, i.e. to allow you to perform an attack that directs you to discard its card but keep the card around for another go round later. (Of course it works.)

If we're making up new rules, how about the rule that says when you're directed to choose from a concrete set of things you can choose each of those things as many times as you like?

"Who do you want to invite to your birthday party, Billy?"

"Just Timmy, but I want to invite him five times, so you'll need to make an extra cake."

But you are falling back on the fallacy that you are using the card's ability multiple times because you can pay for it multiple times. That is like saying "ok, I use swarm leader, I'll remove evade tokens from TIE 1 and TIE 2 and add 2 dice" and then someone responding "NO you only get 1 die, you can't keep using that power over and over and get as many dice as you want! 'Once per opportunity' says you can only use it once, as soon as you spend that first token you are done." you very clearly can spend it from 2 ships. The ability is used, the cost is provided, as is an upper limit, and restrictions as to where the payment must come from. MM has a cost, but no upper limit, and the requirement of where the payment is derived is restricted only to the ship that is using MM. You aren't inviting Timmy twice, you just have 2 friends named Timmy.

I'm not relying on Once per Opportunity. I'm relying on the fact that if I show you a dozen doughnuts and tell you to pick as many of them as you want, you're going to pick at most 12 doughnuts.

17 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But you are falling back on the fallacy that you are using the card's ability multiple times because you can pay for it multiple times. That is like saying "ok, I use swarm leader, I'll remove evade tokens from TIE 1 and TIE 2 and add 2 dice" and then someone responding "NO you only get 1 die, you can't keep using that power over and over and get as many dice as you want!

Nonsense. Swarm Leader says you can pick up to two ships and remove tokens from them.

Your way of reading Mapper would be analogous to using Swarm Leader and removing two tokens from the same ship to trigger it.

4 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I'm not relying on Once per Opportunity. I'm relying on the fact that if I show you a dozen doughnuts and tell you to pick as many of them as you want, you're going to pick at most 12 doughnuts.

Right, yes. Exactly. There are a finite number. I can keep taking doughnuts in the same action until I have expended all doughnuts. Once I hit 12, there are no more to take. If you bring me a box of doughnuts that have 6 varieties, stacked 2 in a stack for 6 stacks, and say you can take as many as you want now, and you can have the rest later 1 at a time.. well I can take both of the powdered ones right now, even though the first powdered one is sitting on top of the second powdered one. I can't take 3 powdered, because there are only 2. I can't take 13 overall, because there are only 12. When I reach for the second powdered one, and you stop me because it is off limits I'd question you. "Ah, but you can't have the second one, you just took the first one." "But you said I can have as many as I like" "Yeah, now, and you took that powdered, you can't take the other powdered one as well, because it stopped being 'right now' when you got the first one." "But I said I wanted them both when asked" "How can you possibly say you wanted the second, one? it was under the first one? It wasn't available" "But you said there were a dozen, it is clearly part of that dozen. it is within the set, so it was available to take".

In my view, through the normal play of game this Punisher has 4 bombs to expend. Ignoring the salvage crane it could put 4 sets of cluster mines out during the course of the game. Assuming you have enough cluster mine tokens for the board, all 4 sets could be out at once. The MM is just allowing you to put them all out now, instead of during the course of the game.

3 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Right, yes. Exactly. There are a finite number. I can keep taking doughnuts in the same action until I have expended all doughnuts. Once I hit 12, there are no more to take. If you bring me a box of doughnuts that have 6 varieties, stacked 2 in a stack for 6 stacks, and say you can take as many as you want now, and you can have the rest later 1 at a time.. well I can take both of the powdered ones right now, even though the first powdered one is sitting on top of the second powdered one. I can't take 3 powdered, because there are only 2. I can't take 13 overall, because there are only 12. When I reach for the second powdered one, and you stop me because it is off limits I'd question you. "Ah, but you can't have the second one, you just took the first one." "But you said I can have as many as I like" "Yeah, now, and you took that powdered, you can't take the other powdered one as well, because it stopped being 'right now' when you got the first one." "But I said I wanted them both when asked" "How can you possibly say you wanted the second, one? it was under the first one? It wasn't available" "But you said there were a dozen, it is clearly part of that dozen. it is within the set, so it was available to take".

In my view, through the normal play of game this Punisher has 4 bombs to expend. Ignoring the salvage crane it could put 4 sets of cluster mines out during the course of the game. Assuming you have enough cluster mine tokens for the board, all 4 sets could be out at once. The MM is just allowing you to put them all out now, instead of during the course of the game.

Except that's still not analogous. The anology would be that I have a box of 12 donuts, you can select any number of them, but when you try to take them I give you a croissant for each one instead. You've now had your opportunity to take donuts, you can't take any more.

Your analogies are inaccurate, perhaps you should reconsider making them.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nonsense. Swarm Leader says you can pick up to two ships and remove tokens from them.

Your way of reading Mapper would be analogous to using Swarm Leader and removing two tokens from the same ship to trigger it.

Which you could do, were it not expressly written on the card that you can't. Because when there are limits like that FF makes those limits express, not implied. people are implying the limitation that you cannot spend the EM token and the card.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except that's still not analogous. The anology would be that I have a box of 12 donuts, you can select any number of them, but when you try to take them I give you a croissant for each one instead. You've now had your opportunity to take donuts, you can't take any more.

Your analogies are inaccurate, perhaps you should reconsider making them.

But croissants don't function like doughnuts. They cannot be used int he same way. Even later in the day, you can't give me a croissant and have me enjoy it like a doughnut. But the EM tokens on the bomb cards allow you to deploy bombs when you discard them the same way discarding the actual card does. They increase the quantity, not replacement them.

It comes down to this..

Some people see a ship with 2 cards and extra munitions and and say "That ship has 2 bombs, that it can use twice." Some say "That ship has 4 bombs." Since you can have all 4 bombs on the field at once through normal gameplay, I am in the camp that says it has 4 bombs. There is nothing wrong with looking at it as 2 bombs you can use twice. I don't expect it to come up much or at all in normal play except maybe someone messing with it to see how it works. FF will hopefully clarify it by release anyway. but we are certainly not going to come to a consensus today. I hope I didn't offend anyone though.

5 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But croissants don't function like doughnuts. They cannot be used int he same way. Even later in the day, you can't give me a croissant and have me enjoy it like a doughnut. But the EM tokens on the bomb cards allow you to deploy bombs when you discard them the same way discarding the actual card does. They increase the quantity, not replacement them.

At this point the pastry metaphor breaks down. You can't "eat" a munitions token, but you can't eat a bomb card either.

The bomb card doesn't do anything except provide the rules for when you can place the token and when the token detonates.

All the munitions token does is save the bomb card from itself. It doesn't have any rules text about bomb tokens or detonation, just about what to do when the card it's on would be discarded.

1 minute ago, xbeaker said:

It comes down to this..

Some people see a ship with 2 cards and extra munitions and and say "That ship has 2 bombs, that it can use twice." Some say "That ship has 4 bombs." Since you can have all 4 bombs on the field at once through normal gameplay, I am in the camp that says it has 4 bombs. There is nothing wrong with looking at it as 2 bombs you can use twice. I don't expect it to come up much or at all in normal play except maybe someone messing with it to see how it works. FF will hopefully clarify it by release anyway. but we are certainly not going to come to a consensus today. I hope I didn't offend anyone though.

Now you're just trying to give me an aneurysm. It doesn't have four bombs. It has two bombs.

There are four lights!

1 minute ago, digitalbusker said:

At this point the pastry metaphor breaks down. You can't "eat" a munitions token, but you can't eat a bomb card either.

The bomb card doesn't do anything except provide the rules for when you can place the token and when the token detonates.

All the munitions token does is save the bomb card from itself. It doesn't have any rules text about bomb tokens or detonation, just about what to do when the card it's on would be discarded.

True, but you aren't using the bomb card for any of the text. You aren't deploying the bomb by rules of that card. You are only discarding it to pay for another card's ability. As I stated earlier, if the MM card said that you could get multiple free bomb actions or some such, I'd be on board with not being able to use the token + the card. but you aren't using the card at all, the text on it (and the lack of text on the token) are irrelevant. They are merely currency at that point, and in my view, equally available currency. But I do understand the opposing view.

7 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

Now you're just trying to give me an aneurysm. It doesn't have four bombs. It has two bombs.

There are four lights!

Please tell me you at least understand my view that there are 4 bombs? If I load up a Punisher with proximity mines and Extra munitions, drop all available mines poorly and no one hits them, at the end of the game, you aren't going to try to convince me there are only 2 mines on the table right?

One wasted Proximity mine! ah, ah , ah! Two wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah! THREE, three wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah! FOUR, there are FOUR wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah!

Just now, xbeaker said:

Please tell me you at least understand my view that there are 4 bombs? If I load up a Punisher with proximity mines and Extra munitions, drop all available mines poorly and no one hits them, at the end of the game, you aren't going to try to convince me there are only 2 mines on the table right?

I understand the words, but they don't make any sense. You have two cards equipped to your ship that have the [bomb] upgrade symbol. That's the only question Minefield Mapper is asking: how many [bomb] upgrade cards do you have? You have two.

The fact that in the course of normal play you could potentially deploy up to four bomb tokens is nice, but not relevant to the question.

We're way past the point of diminishing returns on this, so please do have a nice day.

7 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Please tell me you at least understand my view that there are 4 bombs? If I load up a Punisher with proximity mines and Extra munitions, drop all available mines poorly and no one hits them, at the end of the game, you aren't going to try to convince me there are only 2 mines on the table right?

One wasted Proximity mine! ah, ah , ah! Two wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah! THREE, three wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah! FOUR, there are FOUR wasted proximity mines! ah, ah , ah!

There are two bomb cards and two tokens which you can use to deploy 4 bomb tokens.

There are not four bomb cards.

53 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

There are four lights!

Well this is a fun thread...I didn't think this would be such a huge argument (how naïve of me), came up briefly in my local group and we very quickly came to the agreement that - as Minefield Mapper specifies Bomb Upgrade Cards and Extra Munitions lets you discard a token instead of the card you would be able to deploy only as many bombs as you had Equipped Cards (Tokens do not equal Cards).

Either way the ruling goes, point is, if your opponent is flying 3 cutlass squadron punishers with extra munitions and 2 sets of cluster mines each (plus unguided rockets, cause that's 99 points) you really really need to spread your squadron out during setup-even if you're flying a Biggs list, otherwise (whether it's 6 or 12) you're not going to have a fun time flying through a stack'o'cluster mines...

First off, "Once per opportunity" does not apply. The rule states that you can't use a card ability twice. In this example you would not be allowed to use MM twice - but you aren't, you're using it once for "any number". So clearly the rule does not apply.

Second, it helped me to think about it like a program. It's a loop, but is it a for- or a while-loop? The former needs to know an upper limit when it starts, the latter keeps going as long as a condition is met. This means for MM: a for loop would require a declared upper limit of bombs (any number = e.g. 2), and you can go up this "any number", but not above. For a while loop it would require a condition, i.e. as long as you have bombs to spend you may. "Any number" is here undefined and only known at the end.

Third, let's look at the card:

Quote

During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped {bomb} Upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships.

"During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step": no question here, it does not care about the number of tokens.
"Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships.": also no question here. This part does not care about the number of tokens.

So we have to focus on "you may discard any number of your equipped {bomb} Upgrade cards."
You are instructed to discard X equipped cards. This sounds as if they were all discarded at the same time. But we know that X-Wing TMG does not know actually simultaneous steps - so you have to start with one card!

If this is true (no simultaneous effects) then we have our answer:
1. you discard a card - EM proccs and a token may be discarded instead.
2. you discard a card - EM proccs and a token may be discarded instead.
3. you discard a card - no EM left and a card is discarded.
4. you discard a card - no EM left and a card is discarded.

If you disagree please explain this to me: You are allowed to discard the upgrade card immediately, even if you have an ordnance token on it, correct?
So what is the difference between discarding an upgrade card that still has a token and one that has not anymore a token?

To illustrate better what I mean: You have identical bomb upgrades A and B, and both have ordnance tokens (shown by A+ and B+ if they have tokens). You use MM during setup.
0. You have bombs A+ and B+.
1. You want to discard card A+, but EM allows you to discard the token instead. Now you have A and B+ remaining. You continue with MM.
2. You want to discard card B+, and you do not want to discard the token instead. Now you have A remaining.

If this is possible, why can't you discard A in step 2?

If you are in the camp that thinks 4 are not possible, then you surely have to agree that you could discard the first token and the corresponding upgrade card up to the upper limit of equipped {bomb} Upgrade cards!

So is "equipped" the key word here? Does that provide an upper limit to the qualifier "any number"? If not then I don't see how your viewpoint does not violate the "any number".

Card texts:
EM: "When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead."
MM: "During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped {bomb} Upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."
Once per opportunity: "A card ability cannot be resolved more than once during the timing specified on the card. "

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So is "equipped" the key word here? Does that provide an upper limit to the qualifier "any number"? If not then I don't see how your viewpoint does not violate the "any number".

At this point, this is where I'm at. "Equipped" is the key word that implies, at least to me, that you can't pick "any number" to be higher than the actual number of bomb cards you have equipped.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

If you are in the camp that thinks 4 are not possible, then you surely have to agree that you could discard the first token and the corresponding upgrade card up to the upper limit of equipped {bomb} Upgrade cards!

Yep, that is a valid outcome and a logical consequence of this view, which I have no problem with.

Okay, so given where this thread has gone I'm quite certain I'm not going to convince anyone here but I'm going to be a bit more detailed with my original answer.

The relevant part of the text on MM: "You may discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards"

So let's say you have a Punisher with 2 Bombs and Extra Munitions. How many bomb upgrade CARDS do you have equipped? Two. How many Extra munition TOKENS do you have on those cards? Also two, one on each card. Now an important point: Tokens are not cards and cards are not tokens. If you disagree with the previous sentence then I'm pretty sure you should stop reading now and we can just agree to disagree because I don't know how to argue something that self evident.

So, when you trigger MM you have three valid choices for a number of bomb cards to discard: 0, 1, or 2. Why? Because as we established, there are only two bomb CARDS equipped and you can't attempt to discard more cards than you have. Yes, thematically speaking the ship is able to deploy a total of 4 bombs over the course of the game. That is irrelevant to this rules discussion as MM clearly says "bomb upgrade cards". When it is time to discard the cards per the MM text that is when EM comes into play. The Extra Munitions card allows you to substitute the token for the card but ONLY when it is time to discard it, it is not considered to be a card. The cost of the MM has been fulfilled by discarding the EM token because that specifically is what EM does.

I cited the "Once per opportunity" rule because MM can only be triggered once since setup only happens once and therefore you can't use it again to deploy 2 additional bombs onto the field despite your ship still having them equipped after the EM tokens are discarded.