Firstly this is not a nerf thread and secondly sorry for the length.

This is my (novice) opinion as to why FFG should consider using Tournament (I.e. Updated and tweaked) points lists in a structured AND supported way.

Its evident to any casual observer that the most contentious issue on these forums is game balance.

The tournament data and meta points to some cards being stronger than others (obviously). I guess, in an ideal world, every card would be roughly similar in terms of point efficiency but few people will argue that Expose is 4 times as useful as Attani Mindlink.

I'm not interested in (or experienced enough to judge) which cards are needing fixed (but cough JM) but I am interested in the mechanism which FFG use to do it.

The current approach is to use FAQs to try and achieve balance.

In my humble opinion this is a nearly impossible task. There are so many cards and interactions that balancing a dice game is extremely difficult and becomes even more problematic as cards are released. The game complexity grows with each FAQ.

(Ps - Lady Luck can even influence the outcome of any playtesting!)

For a game that sells itself as fairly simple, adding extra layers is, imo, not helpful AND is less likely to bring the majority of cards back into play than just adjusting the points for tournament play.

No matter how skilled FFG are as game designers the FAQ led approach to balancing strikes me as a problematic approach.

So why not just change the points value using Tournament results and meta data as support? I'm not talking about huge changes (realistically +\- 3 points for a really over/ underperforming card at an absolute max) but this approach could see huge unused swathes of the game become viable.

If Cutlass Sq Pilots are unusable (in tournament environments) at 21 pts? How about 20? How about 19?

How about Kir Kanos at 21?

T65 fix delayed by Biggs? Ok what if Biggs costs 27 while Wedge costs 29? Who sees play then (naked Wedge has a Biggs like effect anyway!)

Power creep is hopefully eliminated (as older ships stay relevant).

New ships are more capable (which is fine) but old ships become cheaper to run (also as you'd expect)

Buy to win is largely eliminated (don't need to buy the C-Roc to fly K-thingies) although FFG might like you buying new cards.

You don't need to make cards more complex to use (e.g. Adding range restrictions or longer text for Manaroo or Palp). Now Palp simply costs 9 pts and Manaroo costs a 100 (ok maybe not)?

No need for pen and paper errata all over the place except for the prices.

Casual play remains in the same place as it always has. Casual. A few points here or there didn't matter before.

A quick chat with friends beforehand for anyone who wishes "hey do you mind if we use the tournament prices?"

Anyone not knowing about tournament coatings isn't affected anyway.

FFG would be able to implement changes quickly and in an ITERATIVE manner. Rule interactions remain the same.

Did you nerf Palp too far? Ok bring him back a bit. Heck you can even add granularity with half points! (Not sure about this)

To support this FFG would need to step up and implement a squad builder website and App that they updated along with the latest tournament prices but, surely, this would take less effort than the Sisyphean task they have set themselves?

Tournament rules would have to be altered ("you must provide two printed lists using the official FFG App or website to build your list. This tournament uses points list version 3.1")

As far as I see it, this doesn't inconvience players more than finding out their Manaroo is limited to R1 a week before a major championship.

I know it's just a game and I know the sky isn't falling but I just think it makes sense.

I wouldn't mind it personally, but if they were doing this, I'd prefer them to just outright errata points values.

FFG could mail many of the active forum users a $20 bill in the mail and they would complain that it was folded.

Meanwhile I'm here like where's the gunship?

2 hours ago, Suhawk75 said:

Buy to win is largely eliminated (don't need to buy the C-Roc to fly K-thingies) although FFG might like you buying new cards.

I think the overall point is here... Why should I make a thing like: just buy the starter box and you can win a tournament! And get everybody playing only ties and xwings, when i can overpower a faction that needs cards from the other two factions to be played?

I'm nit sure that a tournament point system is the way to go but it is definitely an answer to the "nerf" problems at least from a point perspective. It does mean that the point cost on cards are invalid though unless you fly casual (as I do)

6 hours ago, chervorlovesu said:

FFG could mail many of the active forum users a $20 bill in the mail and they would complain that it was folded.

Meanwhile I'm here like where's the gunship?

The gunship is obviously what the answer to ALL THE NERFS AND OP stuff. Hail the gunship

Short Version:

Errata the point costs of anything/everything but only for tournament purposes.

Has been discussed before. Say FY to the newbie who doesn't know this when he shows up.

6 hours ago, StevenO said:

Short Version:

Errata the point costs of anything/everything but only for tournament purposes.

Has been discussed before. Say FY to the newbie who doesn't know this when he shows up.

Yeah but is it any more of a FY to a newbie who bought a JM and turns up expecting Manaroo to have unlimited range?

And yes, that's the short version but I wanted to put some reasoning behind things

13 hours ago, chervorlovesu said:

FFG could mail many of the active forum users a $20 bill in the mail and they would complain that it was folded.

Meanwhile I'm here like where's the gunship?

I'd complain that $ aren't accepted currency at my local pub.

I don't play much so Im not really bothered either way what FFG do. I was just trying to propose an discussion for an alternative approach to the balancing argument.

13 hours ago, Flaren48 said:

I think the overall point is here... Why should I make a thing like: just buy the starter box and you can win a tournament! And get everybody playing only ties and xwings, when i can overpower a faction that needs cards from the other two factions to be played?

I don't have a problem with people winning tournaments with X and Tie. If most of the ships were balanced to some degree it would come down to luck (of course) and flying. The idea is to remove match up loses. Yes there will always be counters but if I could field 8 Ties and have a reasonable chance of overwhelming triple JM with weird combos going on I think that's a good thing.

Is it time for a 10-point Academy Pilot? I think so.

I play infinity as well and one thing that they do is everyone uses there online list builder. This way they can update troop profiles and costs when ever. It wouldn't be too hard to implement something similar.

@Suhawk75 you used a word I've never heard before. Sisyphean. I had to look it up.

Anyway, I for one would one perfectly happy with your proposal.

As for how it would affect the new guy showing up to a tournament for the first time- well in my experience X-Wing players are pretty cool. I foresee TOs and other players by and large keeping an eye out for just such newbies before the tournament begins and helping them out and even lending ships & cards when needed.

OR... and here's an idea.... what if FFG never raised prices on overpowered cards, and instead only lowered prices on underpowered cards? That way the hypothetical new guys is going to show up only to find he either has room for more upgrades or a greater initiative bid. It might result in a greater number of price changes (if we're going to bring everything else up to the Jumpmaster's level, for example), but if they implement an official Squad builder then that's not a huge deal.

2 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

@Suhawk75 you used a word I've never heard before. Sisyphean. I had to look it up.

Anyway, I for one would one perfectly happy with your proposal.

As for how it would affect the new guy showing up to a tournament for the first time- well in my experience X-Wing players are pretty cool. I foresee TOs and other players by and large keeping an eye out for just such newbies before the tournament begins and helping them out and even lending ships & cards when needed.

OR... and here's an idea.... what if FFG never raised prices on overpowered cards, and instead only lowered prices on underpowered cards? That way the hypothetical new guys is going to show up only to find he either has room for more upgrades or a greater initiative bid. It might result in a greater number of price changes (if we're going to bring everything else up to the Jumpmaster's level, for example), but if they implement an official Squad builder then that's not a huge deal.

You literally cant lower the price enough on some underpowered cards to make them anything but underpowered, unless you start making them cost significant amounts of negative points.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You literally cant lower the price enough on some underpowered cards to make them anything but underpowered, unless you start making them cost significant amounts of negative points.

.... and?

EDIT: Cheeky comments aside, there's nothing wrong with making a card cost negative points if it really is that bad. Perhaps people would consider taking Munitions Failsafe over Guidance Chips if it cost -1pt. What's wrong with that?

nothing in particular I suppose.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

nothing in particular I suppose.

Side note: how is it that you have over 8,000 posts but no avatar image?

56 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Side note: how is it that you have over 8,000 posts but no avatar image?

Because I don;t like many of the default ones, and the ones I do like are duplicates and I find duplicate avatars confusing. If there's no avatar at all it forces people to look at the actual name.

Or at least that's my logic.

You know you can upload your own avatar images now, right?

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

.... and?

EDIT: Cheeky comments aside, there's nothing wrong with making a card cost negative points if it really is that bad. Perhaps people would consider taking Munitions Failsafe over Guidance Chips if it cost -1pt. What's wrong with that?

Because some might have that slot available and even without ordnance why not fill it with something that would lower a ship's cost -1 point? The Academy TIE might like that upgrade despite never having a use for it.

PS. If an upgrade is so bad that one wouldn't play it if it were free then it probably isn't a card that anyone should ever expect to bring and do well with in the first place. Let's just admit it, something are complete junk and should never have been printed to start with.

Im not worried about the new guys showing up and being like "WTF!" because FFG tourney rules say you have to be familiar with the official tourney rules and latest FAQ. So anyone planning on going to an official tourney needs to know that.

An official app with point cost changes would be sweet. Casual game would be untouched and is fine anyways. But competitive scene would be changed for the better. FFG could do a quarterly update.

46 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

You know you can upload your own avatar images now, right?

How?

I missed out on that when it was allowed the first few hours they changed to this forum.

I don't see an option for it.

2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

How?

I missed out on that when it was allowed the first few hours they changed to this forum.

I don't see an option for it.

Oh, you're right. I guess I missed that it was only a temporary thing, since I've always been happy with my profile pic. My bad!