This list feels really fun, but I've only flown it casually. How do you guys think it will play out in a tournament setting?

Flanking with QD and keeping Vader and Vessery together. Debating between keeping the tractor beam to have fun and possibly keep agility off to keep Vader's crit landing, or going with x/7 for more upgrades.

Vader: x1, atc, swarm tactics

Vessery: /D, trick shot, tractor beam

Quickdraw: spec ops, crack shot, lightweight frame

I would take the x/7 title instead, as it opens enough points to take fcs on quickdraw, and predator on Vader. With the fcs and atc you don't need vessery to shoot first, as there will always be a target lock on the enemy ship. It also has the benefit of boosting vessery's defence, giving you another solid end game ship

True. It was a toss up with the tractor beam/d.

I wondered about swapping Vessery for Pure Sabacc VI to give me room to spec out Vader and QD.

1 hour ago, LHyoda said:

True. It was a toss up with the tractor beam/d.

I wondered about swapping Vessery for Pure Sabacc VI to give me room to spec out Vader and QD.

In a tournament setting, Vader doesn't really cut it. If you really want to fly him, I'd probably kit him out with Expertise as his EPT, as now his token stack becomes pure defense. His real problem is that he wants to arc dodge, but he can't take Autothrusters, meaning turrets absolutely eat him alive. And his dial is pretty poor -- Inquisitor might give you a similar feel, and be a bit more survivable, flown correctly.

If you're taking Quickdraw, you will be very happy taking FCS. I don't personally care for Crackshot, but some have had decent mileage. I prefer either Expertise (super expensive) or A Score to Settle (budget).

Non-x7 Vessery dies pretty quickly. He's also, generally, the obvious first target in this list, so he'll die early and pretty fast.

Vessery and Quickdraw can totally be competitive in the current meta, I'm not sold on Vader.

What're your thoughts on a RAC/Quickdraw or RAC/Whisper build? I haven't flown seen many Decimators pop up in my local meta, but that may just be because I don't see many imperial builds period.

Inquisitor/QD/Vessery is something I need to play with. I'm curious about Sabacc/QD/Vessery, but I feel like the lower PS would kill me too quickly.

3 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

In a tournament setting, Vader doesn't really cut it. If you really want to fly him, I'd probably kit him out with Expertise as his EPT, as now his token stack becomes pure defense. His real problem is that he wants to arc dodge, but he can't take Autothrusters, meaning turrets absolutely eat him alive. And his dial is pretty poor -- Inquisitor might give you a similar feel, and be a bit more survivable, flown correctly.

If you're taking Quickdraw, you will be very happy taking FCS. I don't personally care for Crackshot, but some have had decent mileage. I prefer either Expertise (super expensive) or A Score to Settle (budget).

Non-x7 Vessery dies pretty quickly. He's also, generally, the obvious first target in this list, so he'll die early and pretty fast.

Vessery and Quickdraw can totally be competitive in the current meta, I'm not sold on Vader.

I agree. Vader was good when the Emperro was good. Palp gave him a lot more flexibility with his double actions than he has now.

13 hours ago, BlackOne said:

I agree. Vader was good when the Emperro was good. Palp gave him a lot more flexibility with his double actions than he has now.

He wasn't really effective even pre-Palp nerf -- as soon as the TLTs dropped, Vader's twilight had come.

Pre-TLT, he was a lovely ship and featured in all of my competitive lists.

17 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

In a tournament setting, Vader doesn't really cut it. If you really want to fly him, I'd probably kit him out with Expertise as his EPT, as now his token stack becomes pure defense. His real problem is that he wants to arc dodge, but he can't take Autothrusters, meaning turrets absolutely eat him alive. And his dial is pretty poor -- Inquisitor might give you a similar feel, and be a bit more survivable, flown correctly.

If you're taking Quickdraw, you will be very happy taking FCS. I don't personally care for Crackshot, but some have had decent mileage. I prefer either Expertise (super expensive) or A Score to Settle (budget).

Non-x7 Vessery dies pretty quickly. He's also, generally, the obvious first target in this list, so he'll die early and pretty fast.

Vessery and Quickdraw can totally be competitive in the current meta, I'm not sold on Vader.

Just saying... something very much like the OP's list did well at European Championships.

I'm also running a cheap Vader in my squad.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Just saying... something very much like the OP's list did well at European Championships.

Colonel Vessery + TIE/D + Tractor Beam + Decoy Backdraft + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control System + Special Ops Training + Lightweight Frame Darth Vader + Adaptability + TIE/x1 + Advanced Targeting Computer

I'm also running a cheap Vader in my squad.

Doing well at a championship means nothing, honestly. You have to factor in the player's skill, all of his opponents skills and lists, and then consider how lucky the dice rolls were.

Now, a large number of similar lists/builds making doing well at events is an entirely different story... One which you won't see featuring Vader anytime soon (or ever again, I suspect).

5 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Doing well at a championship means nothing, honestly. You have to factor in the player's skill, all of his opponents skills and lists, and then consider how lucky the dice rolls were.

Yeah, that's BS. Strange how nobody wrote off Dengaroo when one person did well with it at one event.

It's the European Championships, probably the toughest tournament in the world. He did well with it. I suggest that means it's not garbage.

Vader is great! All this nonsense about him not holding his own because lack of autothrusters....

You have to fly him very carefully though. If you put him under heavy fire, then of course he'll melt! But that's on you for placing him in a bad spot...

Positional aces require careful positioning.....all the time!

I took Vader, Quickdraw & Inquisitor to the Naboo system open and finished well 40-something I think. 7-3 overall. And if I had better sleep I'm absolutely certain I would've made top 16. I just made a few dumb mistakes in two games that I definitely should've won otherwise (and that would've put my 9-1).

But anyway, I don't believe the meta has changed all that much since March. So this type of list is still strong imho.

For reference, my list was:

Vader w/ lone wolf, x-1, ATC & engine = 36

Quickdraw w/ crackshot & FCS = 32

Inquisitor w/ PTL, v-1 & autos = 31

99

Vader is the best flanker here, far from the others. I usually deploy it in a '3 flankers' set-up, but its so flexible, you can switch some things up. Quickdraw usually goes head on while Inquisitor and vader flank/act as bait. Lone wolf is really clutch on him. When he does take fire, it makes up for his lack of autothrusters (sometimes---you certainly can't rely on it to save him from heavy fire though, so fly smart!)

15 hours ago, BlackOne said:

I agree. Vader was good when the Emperro was good. Palp gave him a lot more flexibility with his double actions than he has now.

Vader was good when Inquisitor wasn't around. Now Inquisitor does his job but better. Vader could be decent if it was old palp, but new palp plus no autothrusters is hurting him badly.

Vader is no longer an arc dodger, he's a tank. His ability is like a better /x7 title (you're not tied to 3 speed moves, you can take other actions if you want them) so he's about as tough to kill as a TIE Defender only he costs a lot less to put on the table.

His main weak spot is the dial.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Yeah, that's BS. Strange how nobody wrote off Dengaroo when one person did well with it at one event.

It's the European Championships, probably the toughest tournament in the world. He did well with it. I suggest that means it's not garbage.

It doesn't matter WHAT event it is... You need to consider his opponents (were they actually good? There isn't any sort of entrance exam -- and you can't assume his later pairings meant he was playing better players, as you now have to consider their opponents...), their lists (If he didn't see any turrets, Vader was having a field day!), and maybe he had some poor matchups with hot dice.

One person does not a good ship or good list make. Especially if that player himself is especially talented.

Pointing out one list with Vader performing well is an outlier, and needs to see repeated success to be evaluated better. However, folks free of rose-tinted glasses/their own experiences (which are just as bad to go off of as that-one-guy-who-did-well-at-an-event) can pretty clearly see that Vader has a lot of thing he struggles with in the current meta.

His stats aren't stellar, his ability doesn't even cheat as many actions as other ships in the meta does, and his dial is underwhelming (likely due to power-creep on FFG's part).

I'm not suggesting he's a bad pilot or in a bad ship. He just doesn't stand up in the meta. To be competitive, you either need to be stupid lucky (dice and pairings), or play to the meta. Since I can't suggest folks roll or play better, I tend to offer suggestions based on their list, which is something they can control.

By all means take Vader if that's your goal, doesn't make you an idiot, it just means you're playing outside the current meta, and have to account for that.

Also, LOL on comparing that list to Dengaroo. That was a creative combination that hadn't been seen before, and caught fire immediately after. The Vader list was a good or lucky player doing well, nothing that can be reliably recreated. You can't slap it down for the first time and perform as well as you could with, say, Rau Boats or DenTel.

I agree with SOTL. Vader's presence at a major tournament, even without factoring in player skill, implies that he can be a good choice given the right circumstances, and even if he is not the best, even in a meta that does not favor him, he can be flown to great effect. Basically, it shows that if you can fly him right, he can do well. Granted, that doesn't necessarily make him the best meta pick, but you can't just right off anything that isn't the #1 best; he still could be a viable choice. This is a strategy game- you can win it with good playing even if your list isn't favored.

Finally, I call BS on your entire first point. What other squads the list faced can be traced, and it makes no sense to simply assume that it went through ONLY easy squads and weak opponents. It's the European Championship! In tournaments that big, the likelihood of doing purely because of good matchups is very, very low.

I'm going in, im going in full throttle.

8 minutes ago, BlackOne said:

I agree with SOTL. Vader's presence at a major tournament, even without factoring in player skill, implies that he can be a good choice given the right circumstances, and even if he is not the best, even in a meta that does not favor him, he can be flown to great effect. Basically, it shows that if you can fly him right, he can do well. Granted, that doesn't necessarily make him the best meta pick, but you can't just right off anything that isn't the #1 best; he still could be a viable choice. This is a strategy game- you can win it with good playing even if your list isn't favored.

Finally, I call BS on your entire first point. What other squads the list faced can be traced, and it makes no sense to simply assume that it went through ONLY easy squads and weak opponents. It's the European Championship! In tournaments that big, the likelihood of doing purely because of good matchups is very, very low.

We can very clearly see what matchups Vader doesn't, traditionally, work well against, and what is in the meta. So we can really do a lot of this work prior to even seeing it at the tournament. It doing well is due to any number of variables, which is all I was explaining need to be considered before saying Vader is actually viable in the meta.

And the first point isn't remotely BS, I just wasn't willing to trace the path the opponent took -- it's 100% valuable data, I'm just not interesting in looking it up. If someone wants to pull it and tell me he beat a DenTel, a Rau Boats, and all the high-performing meta lists to make the cut, please be my guest. But it doesn't prove anything . You can't recommend a ship/build because one player made it perform well. Unless you were @Biophysical , you likely weren't ever going to get the same mileage out of pre-Imp Vets Defenders. Player skill isn't something we can make recommendations on. Especially since we have to equally factor in their opponent's talent (or possible lack there of).

And, as a reminder, plenty of people go to tournaments that aren't even all that competitive -- you'll see a lot of so-so local players showing up to major events because it's close to them (and good for them!). And, you know, some people go to events for fun. And some so-so/fun players have hot dice in their first match or two, so their janky (or unique and awesome, or net-decked) lists win matches outside the scope of their general player skill. All this means is that you can not possibly tell the viability of a list/ship based on minimal results, it requires far more data and repetition of results.

I'm not trashing the player or Darth Vader even. But you can't be truly competitive and ignore the meta. Knowing you're flying a ship with 90% bad matchups is useful intel, even if you decide to run it anyways. You approach those matches very differently... And it's generally an uphill battle.

And I'm sorry, but recommending an uphill battle seems like a crappy recommendation, if they're simply looking for PURE feedback.

I find it's easiest to assume everyone is a so-so player (looking to improve or not, that's not important to me), and I also assume they're not going to put the same time @pheaver puts into learning the ins and outs of his lists. Therefore, I don't recommend Darth Vader in the current meta. I don't recommend a TON of ships in the current meta, honestly. Doesn't mean I don't love to see them succeed!

Man, I didn't realize Vader would evoke so much emotion!

So flying this with Vessery sticking to Vader to keep the ps9 from swarm, with Quickdraw flanking, what look like the big weakness strength?

I'm seeing Vader getting focussed, with Quickdraw needing to hammer people. If I have initiative, which is unlikely with a 100 point list, I can hopefully strip tokens with the tractor beam and primary on vessary, then Vader's guaranteed crit has a pretty solid shot at hitting.

What would really hammer this list that I need to counter?

5 minutes ago, LHyoda said:

Man, I didn't realize Vader would evoke so much emotion!

So flying this with Vessery sticking to Vader to keep the ps9 from swarm, with Quickdraw flanking, what look like the big weakness strength?

I'm seeing Vader getting focussed, with Quickdraw needing to hammer people. If I have initiative, which is unlikely with a 100 point list, I can hopefully strip tokens with the tractor beam and primary on vessary, then Vader's guaranteed crit has a pretty solid shot at hitting.

What would really hammer this list that I need to counter?

Jumpmasters. Built for ordinance, they can melt Vader quickly, strip QD of shields too fast, and really hurt a TIE/d Vessery. In the form of DenTel, they could potentially kill Vessery in a single round. Built for bumping, they can make Vader incredibly fragile with a well-timed block.

You'll need a plan for lists like Rau Boats/Triple Jumps/DenTel, really, as they are likely prevalent in any meta scene.

Just now, ArbitraryNerd said:

Jumpmasters. Built for ordinance, they can melt Vader quickly, strip QD of shields too fast, and really hurt a TIE/d Vessery. In the form of DenTel, they could potentially kill Vessery in a single round. Built for bumping, they can make Vader incredibly fragile with a well-timed block.

You'll need a plan for lists like Rau Boats/Triple Jumps/DenTel, really, as they are likely prevalent in any meta scene.

Rauboats is basically your easiest matchup. I've played it more than anything else and only occasionally lost even one ship.

Den/Tel is another problem because of their higher PS

Similar strategy but switching around to Quickdraw in Vader's spot and the Inquisitor flanking, would this eliminate some of the potential weakness with Vader?

QD (29): title(0), swarm tactics(2),fcs(2), lightweight frame(2)

Vessery: tractor beam(1), /d(0), trick shot (0)

The Inquisitor (25), title(1), VI(1)

Coming in at 98 for an initiative bid.

On 6/23/2017 at 4:02 PM, LHyoda said:

Similar strategy but switching around to Quickdraw in Vader's spot and the Inquisitor flanking, would this eliminate some of the potential weakness with Vader?

QD (29): title(0), swarm tactics(2),fcs(2), lightweight frame(2)

Vessery: tractor beam(1), /d(0), trick shot (0)

The Inquisitor (25), title(1), VI(1)

Coming in at 98 for an initiative bid.

This now just comes down to flying -- you need to make sure you're maximizing usage with QD and Inquisitor. Also, Vessery is still the obvious first target, and will be the easiest to burn. Also, his tractor beam doesn't benefit anyone on your team, as they've already shot, and it's completely useless against large base ships, which you'll see a lot of.

Ion Vessery would be more useful, but x7 is still the better option.

1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

This now just comes down to flying -- you need to make sure you're maximizing usage with QD and Inquisitor. Also, Vessery is still the obvious first target, and will be the easiest to burn. Also, his tractor beam doesn't benefit anyone on your team, as they've already shot, and it's completely useless against large base ships, which you'll see a lot of.

Ion Vessery would be more useful, but x7 is still the better option.

That's where swarm tactics would come into play, letting Vessery be ps9 by sticking with QD, shooting first before either of the others, possibly giving them a more vulnerable target.

But swapping to x7 and putting Swarm Leader on QD to get the extra attack dice from Inquisitor's and the x7's evade generation is another option I might go with.

X7 is the natural choice for Defenders but that doesn't mean giving them the D isn't effective. You are paying a premium but it depends on the meta and how much control is worth it to you.
I have thoroughly enjoyed Vess /D Ion paired with QD and OL.