12 hours ago, DarthCognis said:

I haven't heard such ignorant nonsense since the last time I watched the news.

(sorry; off-topic 'n all but a good laugh is a good laugh and much appreciated)

1 hour ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I didn't say it was 'new', not sure where you got that from while missing the point at the same time...

RoV

I never said that you did.

You've said several times that you think the Jumpmaster isn't OP, it's just super popular and that explains why it's in all the top tables of everything.

So, why is it popular?

I mentioned newness because in X-Wing newness usually correlates strongly with popularity. People fly new hotness things more than they fly old and busted* things.

The Jumpmaster's more than a year old, it's not the new hotness any more, and 2 waves have come and gone since it was. It's remained consistently popular and consistently appeared at high levels of every major tournament since its release.

So what do you suggest causes its significantly greater than average popularity, if not its power?

17 hours ago, Zucch10 said:

Also drop Astromech, the 4K turn, and make both sloops red.

Perhaps add to the Punishing One Title "you may only equip unique upgrade cards"...

15 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

...The sample size for the data, though significant, is not large enough to provide the accuracy people think these rankings have.

To give an example of what it has wrong: In June, Manaroo is ranked 5th and Miranda is ranked 9th. Since the nerf, Miranda is definitively a better ship than Manaroo. Biggs is easily still top10 and he is gone from top10 in June. Additionally, the response time of these rankings is significantly off. The list of ships each month is about 2-3 months out of date. To know the current meta you simply have to participate in tournaments.

You're talking about an enormous sample size relative to the total population (all tournaments everywhere). Somewhere between 1 and 10%, I would think. At arny rate, it is more than enough to, statistically speaking, create an accurate model of the population.

Miranda is awful against stress, Kylo, Paratanni, etc, etc. Biggs being a top 10 ship is debatable. Sure, he's used a lot, but you don't see him winning a lot, relative to other big list staples.

Furthermore, the JM5k is the best ship in the game statwise. It's really indisputable. Higher hull + agility durability combo for the points than any comparable ship (WSF, ORS...). They have greater maneuverability than the vast majority of ships in terms of standard maneuvers, while also having the white segnor. With the uncanny combination of upgrades they have the capacity for enormous damage in a frame that simply can't be PS sniped. Add to all this a laughably low base cost and you get a ship that's way above the power curve.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

You've said several times that you think the Jumpmaster isn't OP, it's just super popular and that explains why it's in all the top tables of everything.

So, why is it popular?

So what do you suggest causes its significantly greater than average popularity, if not its power?

I've also said several times it is still very strong. Please read all I said, not just some of it.

I've also stated more than once that some players are sticking with a build they are accustomed to, despite the recent mild nerfs.

Sigh.

RoV

3 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I've also said several times it is still very strong. Please read all I said, not just some of it.

I've also stated more than once that some players are sticking with a build they are accustomed to, despite the recent mild nerfs.

Sigh.

RoV

You can't sigh when you're being a bone-headed about this as anyone. Jumpmasters are CLEARLY overpowered - their presence, success and lack of any real weaknesses is evidence - no matter how much you seem to try to say they are strong, but not too strong.

You can give whatever excuses you like for their proliferation, but all evidence, stats and anecdotes point to them being demonstrably better than anything else.

Simply put, the never stay balanced nature of all games that expand forever and ever, and how long it takes them to fix problems, is top reason I don't play this or any game like it at a store, or a 'tournament'. Those of you who do, I'm not taking that away from you, if that's your kind of fun.

For me, it is no kind of fun to go deep into these kinds of games because they simply aren't good enough to hold up under that kind of stress. If you want serious, and I mean dead serious gaming, and you are willing to sell everything else about a game out for competition, play chess. Anything else, there's another appeal. In this game, simply put, that appeal is Star Wars. It may change from person to person, such as for me I'm more of a purist, and for some people, they love the expanded universe, and for other people, they've decided Fantasy Flight Games is a good enough company to pick what lore they play with.

In the end, however, the first reason almost anyone I know who plays this game does it because it is some form of Star Wars first. The play balance is, closer or far, a second place to that. Things like any imbalanced ship run the risk of ruining the fun that people think of when they imagine Star Wars in their mind. I won't even play games in a store anymore, and I've moved from being a big supporter of the LGS to a person who's rather content buying stuff online and never stepping one foot into a brick and mortar event where all I can expect to receive is some sort of unfun game experience where people do ridiculous things simply to win a game that's supposed to be more fun than an exercise in rules lawyering and win at all costs.

Again, that's me. You tournament players go on with your thing. I'm still playing with my X-Wings, however, and not just Biggs either. Thankfully, I don't have a need in this game to buy any product in this game I don't like just to keep up with some meta that I have no interest in.

1 hour ago, KelRiever said:

Simply put, the never stay balanced nature of all games that expand forever and ever, and how long it takes them to fix problems, is top reason I don't play this or any game like it at a store, or a 'tournament'. Those of you who do, I'm not taking that away from you, if that's your kind of fun.

For me, it is no kind of fun to go deep into these kinds of games because they simply aren't good enough to hold up under that kind of stress. If you want serious, and I mean dead serious gaming, and you are willing to sell everything else about a game out for competition, play chess. Anything else, there's another appeal. In this game, simply put, that appeal is Star Wars. It may change from person to person, such as for me I'm more of a purist, and for some people, they love the expanded universe, and for other people, they've decided Fantasy Flight Games is a good enough company to pick what lore they play with.

In the end, however, the first reason almost anyone I know who plays this game does it because it is some form of Star Wars first. The play balance is, closer or far, a second place to that. Things like any imbalanced ship run the risk of ruining the fun that people think of when they imagine Star Wars in their mind. I won't even play games in a store anymore, and I've moved from being a big supporter of the LGS to a person who's rather content buying stuff online and never stepping one foot into a brick and mortar event where all I can expect to receive is some sort of unfun game experience where people do ridiculous things simply to win a game that's supposed to be more fun than an exercise in rules lawyering and win at all costs.

Again, that's me. You tournament players go on with your thing. I'm still playing with my X-Wings, however, and not just Biggs either. Thankfully, I don't have a need in this game to buy any product in this game I don't like just to keep up with some meta that I have no interest in.

This is true of some of my friends and I've been vacillating between competitive and casual for about a year or so. Star Wars IS the reason everyone I know plays, and most started leaving the competitive scene when the best characters couldn't be realistically fielded no mater the modifications, synergies or practice. Luke never really had a shot, Han had his glory days and Vader used to be a solid Ace pre-turretwing. I guess the droids we all love still have their place here and there, but the heart of the game has left the competitive body and FFG doesn't seem to mind.

1 hour ago, KelRiever said:

Simply put, the never stay balanced nature of all games that expand forever and ever, and how long it takes them to fix problems, is top reason I don't play this or any game like it at a store, or a 'tournament'. Those of you who do, I'm not taking that away from you, if that's your kind of fun.

For me, it is no kind of fun to go deep into these kinds of games because they simply aren't good enough to hold up under that kind of stress. If you want serious, and I mean dead serious gaming, and you are willing to sell everything else about a game out for competition, play chess. Anything else, there's another appeal. In this game, simply put, that appeal is Star Wars. It may change from person to person, such as for me I'm more of a purist, and for some people, they love the expanded universe, and for other people, they've decided Fantasy Flight Games is a good enough company to pick what lore they play with.

In the end, however, the first reason almost anyone I know who plays this game does it because it is some form of Star Wars first. The play balance is, closer or far, a second place to that. Things like any imbalanced ship run the risk of ruining the fun that people think of when they imagine Star Wars in their mind. I won't even play games in a store anymore, and I've moved from being a big supporter of the LGS to a person who's rather content buying stuff online and never stepping one foot into a brick and mortar event where all I can expect to receive is some sort of unfun game experience where people do ridiculous things simply to win a game that's supposed to be more fun than an exercise in rules lawyering and win at all costs.

Again, that's me. You tournament players go on with your thing. I'm still playing with my X-Wings, however, and not just Biggs either. Thankfully, I don't have a need in this game to buy any product in this game I don't like just to keep up with some meta that I have no interest in.

Preach brother

My LGS is a bastion of fluff and jank, where the meta is banned, and an X wing lies on every table (besides biggs)

But I have gone to other stores where the culture is different. To me, I love the beautiful pure experience of showing a noob how to play with 2 tie fighters vs one x wing. I went to a store, new guy shows up, they give him parratani, poor guy didnt even understand or remember the triggers of the broken **** he was flying. I think I puked in my mouth a little at first......then he beat my veteren player friend who was using A wings, and I had Diarrhea for a week.

23 minutes ago, DarthCognis said:

Preach brother

My LGS is a bastion of fluff and jank, where the meta is banned, and an X wing lies on every table (besides biggs)

But I have gone to other stores where the culture is different. To me, I love the beautiful pure experience of showing a noob how to play with 2 tie fighters vs one x wing. I went to a store, new guy shows up, they give him parratani, poor guy didnt even understand or remember the triggers of the broken **** he was flying. I think I puked in my mouth a little at first......then he beat my veteren player friend who was using A wings, and I had Diarrhea for a week.

????

...let's see, Old Duncan's Johnson was the hotness last month along with Spamming the World's list. Yeah, some Store Champs had a diverse meta, but it's because there's little pressure and lots of guys like me who prefer other lists as they're more fun and thematic, get to run them and it lowers the number of OP ships in the hands of the best pilots. So the OP ain't quite as OP. But Jumps are still sick and guys proc-ing the new SlamJumps say they're gonna be super-sick. We'll see I guess ?

On 7/1/2017 at 5:29 PM, Dengar5 said:

I've looked into the ranking "system" Meta-wing uses and I disagree with it entirely. It is known that "statistics" can be bent to a large degree. To me this chart is propaganda and/or fake news. The sample size for the data, though significant, is not large enough to provide the accuracy people think these rankings have.

What would you do different or better? I'm very open for suggestions. As Sozin said, the software including its algorithms are open source. I'm open for and would absolutely welcome pull requests with improvements, or if you have an idea for a better algorithm without the programming knowledge to implement it, you're very welcome to create an issue with details.

I think the sample size is relevant, as it's "all the known tournament results". As mentioned, it's about 120 tournaments for the last month, thanks to the awesome work of @sozin and @MajorJuggler, and everybody who keeps entering data. meta-wing would be nothing without those, and thus would be nothing without everybody who are reading this. So, thanks!

I'll just pick one of your statements for a bit of analysis:

On 7/1/2017 at 5:29 PM, Dengar5 said:

To give an example of what it has wrong: In June, Manaroo is ranked 5th and Miranda is ranked 9th. Since the nerf, Miranda is definitively a better ship than Manaroo.

That's perfectly possible. It's absolutely possible that Miranda is a much better pilot. The reason why it's ranked lower than Manaroo is that even though it was fielded more often than Manaroo (154 times vs. 54 times), it performed much worse on average (35th vs. 52th percentile). The nerf was in March, so there's absolutely no pre-nerf data in there. There's theoretical quality and actual performance, and meta-wing analyzes the latter.

The reason for that discrepancy can be manifold. Maybe many people realized that Miranda is a good ship and tried to fly her without practice, and utterly tanked, dragging down the results from those who knew how to fly her? But how do you want to read that from quantitative data? As I said, I'm very open for suggestions. One such suggestion was this one, by MajorJuggler. I hope that I'll get around to implementing that soon.

On 7/1/2017 at 5:29 PM, Dengar5 said:

The list of ships each month is about 2-3 months out of date.

By default, it uses data from all the tournaments of the last month, and none from before that (though you can change that). I think that's perfectly in line with this observation though. A theory: People don't just jump on the newest shiny and fly it to perfection. Either they pick the newest shiny and haven't really practiced with it yet, or they fly something really well and then they also have some time spent with it. In other words, if you feel like the list is 2-3 months behind, it might well be that you're up to date with the meta enough to be 2-3 months ahead of the average tournament player.

I have no stake in any game when it comes to this data. I have no interest in shoving the Jumpmaster to the top, nor do I have interest in representing Miranda worse than it is. Why would I? What would I gain from that?

On 7/1/2017 at 5:29 PM, Dengar5 said:

To know the current meta you simply have to participate in tournaments.

Absolutely. That's where you can also judge whether the guy who did well or badly with a list was somebody who usually flies strange jank (like me, for example), somebody who just picked up what he heard might be good, or somebody who put in weeks of practice. That's an important aspect that meta-wing doesn't represent. There's also the level of tournaments and regions - some regions are highly competitive, while others aren't, and there's no weight for that in the algorithms.

The only thing I claim that meta-wing really shows is "what lists and ships and upgrades can I reasonably expect to encounter at a tournament in the upper third of the Swiss rankings or the cut, assuming that today is similar to the average of last month". That's all.

@haslo, @MajorJuggler, @sozin, @Stay On Target, and others who state analysis with backup and statistics; thanks!!! Don't be bothered by blather without equal statistics or backup; it's just clanging symbols or simple opinions.......mostly both. ?

I don't think another Jumpmaster Nerf is coming, if they were going to do something I feel like FFG would have done it when they nerfed manaroo's ability.

My speculation is there is a combination of a "The Last Jedi" related First Order Ship, Resistance Ship and the upgrades they bring in the pipeline that will deliver Jumpmaster-ish power level ships for the other two factions. Or at least strong counters to the Jumpmaster. I only believe this because FFG only mettled with Manaroo specifically and nothing else concerning the Jumpmaster.

Or I could just be dead wrong lol

2 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:

I don't think another Jumpmaster Nerf is coming, if they were going to do something I feel like FFG would have done it when they nerfed manaroo's ability.

My speculation is there is a combination of a "The Last Jedi" related First Order Ship, Resistance Ship and the upgrades they bring in the pipeline that will deliver Jumpmaster-ish power level ships for the other two factions. Or at least strong counters to the Jumpmaster. I only believe this because FFG only mettled with Manaroo specifically and nothing else concerning the Jumpmaster.

Or I could just be dead wrong lol

how would they have meddled with the contracted scout?

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

how would they have meddled with the contracted scout?

Remove the EP if I had to guess...

Just now, Phoenix5454 said:

Remove the EP if I had to guess...

They've never changed a ship's upgrade bar in the history of the game.

I's far more likely they wanted to watch the meta shake out after the zuckuss and palp nerfs before they took dramatic chassis/cost nerfing.

2 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

They've never changed a ship's upgrade bar in the history of the game.

I's far more likely they wanted to watch the meta shake out after the zuckuss and palp nerfs before they took dramatic chassis/cost nerfing.

Ok... well you asked me so if you don't like my answer thats fine. As I said I don't think the Jumpmaster will be nerfed again but other new ships will be the counter to it.

43 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Ok... well you asked me so if you don't like my answer thats fine. As I said I don't think the Jumpmaster will be nerfed again but other new ships will be the counter to it.

It's gonna get a direct nerf; they've been playtesting it a bunch. What it is? IDK. The d*** thing is just too good; if you give the other factions something better, it'll wreck the game; nerfing is the only way forward; ship cost and stats can no longer be held as being sacred...the game's future and the business' future X-Wing money is on the line. It'll hit when we can get our hands on the new crack.

8 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

You can't sigh when you're being a bone-headed about this as anyone. Jumpmasters are CLEARLY overpowered - their presence, success and lack of any real weaknesses is evidence - no matter how much you seem to try to say they are strong, but not too strong.

You can give whatever excuses you like for their proliferation, but all evidence, stats and anecdotes point to them being demonstrably better than anything else.

I can sigh as much as I like when people only read half of what I post mate

RoV

Dengar is going to be back in Ep8! He's going full Mum-Ra this time though... He's going to kick butt, big time, and EVERYONE is going to want to buy his ship after watching the movie... That's why they can't nerf the JMK, honestly..!

Truthfully, I really hope there's a Slave-1 in the movie so they can rerelease/buff the ship that should be kickin butt...

14 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Dengar is going to be back in Ep8! He's going full Mum-Ra this time though... He's going to kick butt, big time, and EVERYONE is going to want to buy his ship after watching the movie... That's why they can't nerf the JMK, honestly..!

Truthfully, I really hope there's a Slave-1 in the movie so they can rerelease/buff the ship that should be kickin butt...

Wouldn't he be ancient by the time of the Last Jedi? I really rather not see a Geriatric Dengar...

17 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

It's gonna get a direct nerf; they've been playtesting it a bunch. What it is? IDK. The d*** thing is just too good; if you give the other factions something better, it'll wreck the game; nerfing is the only way forward; ship cost and stats can no longer be held as being sacred...the game's future and the business' future X-Wing money is on the line. It'll hit when we can get our hands on the new crack.

"As you wish"

3 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Wouldn't he be ancient by the time of the Last Jedi? I really rather not see a Geriatric Dengar...

He was active during the clone wars, so charitably assuming he was around Luke's age then, he'd have been between 40 and 50 in Empire, so presumably somewhere around 80 in TFA era.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

He was active during the clone wars, so charitably assuming he was around Luke's age then, he'd have been between 40 and 50 in Empire, so presumably somewhere around 80 in TFA era.

He does have cybernetic enhancements (I don't know if this is canon anymore) so ... maybe... I dunno.

If there is some bounty on Luke's head it would make sense to have Boba , Bossk, Dengar etc in the last Jedi but I don't feel like that's at all part of this movie. I would be pleasantly surprised as the bounty hunters and criminal organizations are my favorite part of star wars but I'm not counting on it.

Just now, Phoenix5454 said:

He does have cybernetic enhancements (I don't know if this is canon anymore) so ... maybe... I dunno.

If there is some bounty on Luke's head it would make sense to have Boba , Bossk, Dengar etc in the last Jedi but I don't feel like that's at all part of this movie. I would be pleasantly surprised as the bounty hunters and criminal organizations are my favorite part of star wars but I'm not counting on it.

I really, really hope we don't end up with a retread of ESB the way we did of ANH.

Give me an original story, please. I'll be delighted if we don't see a single bounty hunter in the whole film.

45 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I really, really hope we don't end up with a retread of ESB the way we did of ANH.

Give me an original story, please. I'll be delighted if we don't see a single bounty hunter in the whole film.

Didn't even think of the ESB rehash potentially. As someone who loves Bounty Hunters I too agree, new story no bounty hunters for The Last Jedi.