11 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

Errataing points is in the abstract the best way to fix something because ultimately it is the points that is wrong. But FFG and other game companies rarely do this for the reason that it can invalidate a list someone brings to the table. Bad enough "hey, Manaroo works like this now" but at least you can still field the same list. Figuring out before (or halfway through!) a game an upgrade is illegal is worse ("yeah deadeye can't go on a big ship now"). But there's a whole other kettle of worms if you found out the points values weren't even right. Given that FFG has gone through absolute hoops to bring points adjustments in through the back door without actually changing points values (looking at you, chaardaran refit), I can't see it happening. Likewise changing upgrade bar or frame values seems unlikely, otherwise they could have dropped the phantom down to firepower 3 way back when it was a major issue.

I've never really bought the whole line about changing points values causing invalid lists. The reality is that if they increased J5K cost by 2 points and someone showed up with an overcosted list as a result they wouldn't be unable to play, they'd just drop an upgrade card and go on with their day. I can't think of any common list that doesn't have something it can drop. It may not be ideal or quite as synergistic as it was but it'll still be playable.

18 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

You'll forgive me if I trust over a year of tournament results more than your word, I hope.

The same ones showing the Jumpmaster is strong, but not sweeping all before it? Sure, I have read them too.

RoV

8 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

The same ones showing the Jumpmaster is strong, but not sweeping all before it? Sure, I have read them too.

RoV

Worlds results:

Rebels:3

Imperials: 1

Scum: 1

Attani Mindlink: 11

11 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

The same ones showing the Jumpmaster is strong, but not sweeping all before it? Sure, I have read them too.

RoV

All five of the top performing lists since the "Great Nerf" are Jumpmaster based. Just for good measure there's another one in the top 10. That might not be sweeping all before it, but it's bloody closer than any other ship has ever come.

39 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Then perhaps I'm just that good at killing them. Your call

The Von Helsing of the JM5K. I'll grant you that title, then. So, it's either your stake or the ban hammer.

The ship is ruining the game, or, if not, consuming an inordinate time for rebalancing that could have been used moving the game forward rather than generating and unending stream of errata.

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Worlds results:

Rebels:3

Imperials: 1

Scum: 1

Attani Mindlink: 11

Lists with Jumpmasters: 10 out of 16 lists

Total Jumpmasters: 15 out of 42 ships

24 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Worlds results:

Rebels:3

Imperials: 1

Scum: 1

Attani Mindlink: 11

Well spotted. So why aren't you guys wailing about Mindlink then?

RoV

Just now, Rat of Vengence said:

Well spotted. So why aren't you guys wailing about Mindlink then?

RoV

We are. There's a heavy overlap here.

6 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

We are. There's a heavy overlap here.

I agree. So it isn't just the ship. Now we are getting somewhere.

As for worlds results (as if that is a telling argument...)

2014 top 16

7 of 9 Rebel lists had a Falcon or two

Doesn't prove much.

RoV

1 minute ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I agree. So it isn't just the ship. Now we are getting somewhere.

As for worlds results (as if that is a telling argument...)

2014 top 16

7 of 9 Rebel lists had a Falcon or two

Doesn't prove much.

RoV

Let me guess- the rest of the lists had some combination of Phantom or Decimator?

Consider that the Falcon was a hard counter to the phantom, and phantoms were STILL getting to top 16s despite them. THAT's broken.

9 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

That's changing not just pilot cards, but CARDBOARD.

Do the little card board slips in the bases actually matter? Beyond arc marking of course.

Only thing I look at the bases for is the pilot name, otherwise I usually just look at the card across the table.

Believe me, other games have dealt with the written stats for a unit being changed with an FAQ and no reprint till an edition change. It's not that big of a deal.

1) are we going to see an edition change with x-wing? CAN they do an edition change?

2) yeah the bases are the guide for a lot of people. I don't look at the stats much but use the wrong cardboard for a few games and I bet confusion happens sooner or later.

Maybe, but still. Trust me, as a veteran of around 20 years of table top gaming, people can deal just fine with some adjusted statlines. The owning player just needs to have a copy of the errata handy if questions are raised.

And in competitive circles, the errata should be common enough knowledge that nobody gets surprised.

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

Let me guess- the rest of the lists had some combination of Phantom or Decimator?

Consider that the Falcon was a hard counter to the phantom, and phantoms were STILL getting to top 16s despite them. THAT's broken.

There were 3 or 4 phantom lists. Oh yeah, the Phantom was very much broken, just as the toilet seat was, no arguments from me there. But after the successive nerfs to the Jumpmaster, we now have a greater variety of lists in which it features, and it has gone from broken to pretty tough. A lot of the figures quoted above date to before the more recent nerf, so aren't terribly useful. Same with the World's, several players stuck with the Jumpmaster despite the nerfs as they had been practicing long term with it; that might not accurately reflect it's current strength.

RoV

1 hour ago, Rat of Vengence said:

A lot of the figures quoted above date to before the more recent nerf, so aren't terribly useful.

How many successive months do you want before you call it useful?
I don't understand your motivation here - the Jumpmaster is undeniably too cheap and has a dial that is too good for its costs.
You can fit 3 well equiped into a list ffs... something an X-wing can't, for example.

Is the problem large enough to require another change? Probably, yes. Even if only because he destroys the fun of the game for many other players, which absolutely is an important reason for a company that's built on fun.

7 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Well spotted. So why aren't you guys wailing about Mindlink then?

RoV

Mindlink is overpowered because there's now multiple large ships with green hard turns. It would had also been a thing long before hand if Deadeye wasn't even easier and Dengaroo wasn't made. Mindlink is only overpowered because the ships themselves that are carrying it make it more than worth taking and have too good of a dial.

I can see FFG start to increase power creep over starting the logistical nightmare of FAQing basic stat lines. Making ships "costed" to the JumpMaster not only avoids that headache but will ultimately sell more ships for players to keep up with the meta. However, some of the ships in the waves since the JM5K (looking at you U-Wing, TIE Agressor) make me think they aren't all in just yet.

Hopefully someday in a podcast interview we can find out the story behind creating the JM5K and how a chassis that incredible managed to make it through playtesting.

1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

Mindlink is overpowered because there's now multiple large ships with green hard turns. It would had also been a thing long before hand if Deadeye wasn't even easier and Dengaroo wasn't made. Mindlink is only overpowered because the ships themselves that are carrying it make it more than worth taking and have too good of a dial.

And I am not sure if I would call it really overpowered with the original set of ships it was intended for, Protectorate Fighters, M3A, Star Vipers, G1-A and well, Dangaroo. Outside of the jumpmasters all ships overcost, so a 1-point mindlink was not a bad idea for them, something which functions as scums PTL with a discount. I would not be surprised if the Mindlink fix comes with guns for hire and simply increases costs for mindlink by 1 point and does something similar about the Jumpmasters.

BTW, Palobtanni seems to replacing the Jumpmasters in that list, while the lancer is making a great point about large ships, mindlink and green turns. In many ways the lancer is worse than the jumpmasters, but at least you will usually not take multiples of them in your list. ;-)

36 minutes ago, Hydralisk101 said:

However, some of the ships in the waves since the JM5K (looking at you U-Wing, TIE Agressor) make me think they aren't all in just yet.

Compare the B-Wing to the U-Wing. ;-)

9 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

And I am not sure if I would call it really overpowered with the original set of ships it was intended for, Protectorate Fighters, M3A, Star Vipers, G1-A and well, Dangaroo. Outside of the jumpmasters all ships overcost, so a 1-point mindlink was not a bad idea for them, something which functions as scums PTL with a discount. I would not be surprised if the Mindlink fix comes with guns for hire and simply increases costs for mindlink by 1 point and does something similar about the Jumpmasters.

BTW, Palobtanni seems to replacing the Jumpmasters in that list, while the lancer is making a great point about large ships, mindlink and green turns. In many ways the lancer is worse than the jumpmasters, but at least you will usually not take multiples of them in your list. ;-)

The Lancer's not so bad because like the IG2000, you can't have more than two of them in a list, and there are only two with EPTs and no EPT generic.

So you want basically a price increase by 3 points for the jumpmaster? ;-)

BTW speaking of undercost. Plasma torpedos with chips are a solid, balanced 3 point upgrade, right?

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

So you want basically a price increase by 3 points for the jumpmaster? ;-)

BTW speaking of undercost. Plasma torpedos with chips are a solid, balanced 3 point upgrade, right?

3 points is maybe enough on the Jumpmaster. Plasma Torps are probably fine. Guidance Chips should cost 1.

Push up +3 on the Jump and +1 on Chips and we're right.

1 hour ago, Hydralisk101 said:

I can see FFG start to increase power creep over starting the logistical nightmare of FAQing basic stat lines. Making ships "costed" to the JumpMaster not only avoids that headache but will ultimately sell more ships for players to keep up with the meta. However, some of the ships in the waves since the JM5K (looking at you U-Wing, TIE Agressor) make me think they aren't all in just yet.

Hopefully someday in a podcast interview we can find out the story behind creating the JM5K and how a chassis that incredible managed to make it through playtesting.

I think the Wookie Gunship and the Scrugg are designs to keep up with the Jumps; least they seem to be really, really good statistically over most all other ships, except the JM5K, right?

11 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I think the Wookie Gunship and the Scrugg are designs to keep up with the Jumps; least they seem to be really, really good statistically over most all other ships, except the JM5K, right?

Nah, not even close.

The Gunship is basically in line with an ARC-170, stat-wise. The Scurrg is costed in line with a slightly inflated base, but nowhere near the Jumpmaster efficiency.

31 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Nah, not even close.

The Gunship is basically in line with an ARC-170, stat-wise. The Scurrg is costed in line with a slightly inflated base, but nowhere near the Jumpmaster efficiency.

I think the Wookie Gunship is incredibly tanky and the arc with the good dial for that stat/cost (the Lambda and HWK continue to weep), that it's really good for the points and is following the tanky power creep to keep up with the red dice; it's also another death-nail into 2 dice attack ships (the A-Wing and TIE hates it). And you gotta admit after looking at all the stuff you get with the Scrugg, it surely is one of the best ships in the game; look at its flexibility, it's behind the stupid Jumpmaster sure, but every ship is. What ship is more versatile for the points? List please? FFG is upping the power creep in the Scum faction where it is already way up --and their bumping the Rebels a bit in another 'I will not die easy and it will suck to play me with many of the ships you have' way. And, not to be too glum, but the Empire gets a throwback Y-Wing that's more fragile but mid-level TIE evasive to spam some turrets on as its base naked cost is way too high in the current age....in other words, blah. I just don't have that excited Star Wars space battle feeling about this expansion at all; less than the last expansion, and that's saying something, haha!

...now where's my tea?

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

I think the Wookie Gunship is incredibly tanky and the arc with the good dial for that stat/cost (the Lambda and HWK continue to weep), that it's really good for the points and is following the tanky power creep to keep up with the red dice; it's also another death-nail into 2 dice attack ships (the A-Wing and TIE hates it). And you gotta admit after looking at all the stuff you get with the Scrugg, it surely is one of the best ships in the game; look at its flexibility, it's behind the stupid Jumpmaster sure, but every ship is. What ship is more versatile for the points? List please? FFG is upping the power creep in the Scum faction where it is already way up --and their bumping the Rebels a bit in another 'I will not die easy and it will suck to play me with many of the ships you have' way. And, not to be too glum, but the Empire gets a throwback Y-Wing that's more fragile but mid-level TIE evasive to spam some turrets on as its base naked cost is way too high in the current age....in other words, blah. I just don't have that excited Star Wars space battle feeling about this expansion at all; less than the last expansion, and that's saying something, haha!

...now where's my tea?

I think the Auzituck is badly overhyped, Lowhrick in particular. There's already better ways of trying to keep Biggs alive and ultimately it's just not a particularly valid tactic. I think being able to do it while retaining list flexibility is a buff over the current Biggs-oriented squads but not a killer. That's excluding the impact of Selflessness, which I think is very good for those squads and materially improves them, but it's not tied to the Auzituck.

The Scurrg generics are both unlikely to do anything but I think there are some fantastic Captain Nym builds, especially in Rebel. I've seen some brilliant two ship lists with a 50pt Miranda and 50pt Nym that look like a ton of fun. I don't know if he's especially great, but I think he's definitely good enough to get played in competitive squads, pretty much just on his pilot ability alone. I like the massive flexibility of Adv Sensors/PTL/Engine Upgrade on Nym - he moves like Corran Horn, but doesn't care about keeping in arc so has much more freedom of movement and unpredictability.

The Aggressor is pretty meh. The Quad TLT squads won't be much better than existing Y-Wing squads. Kestal makes a decent low-30s option for the triple aces squads around at present.


At the moment I expect to buy 1 Scurrg and 1 Aggressor. I don't see benefit from buying multiples because the generics aren't good enough.