Just now, thespaceinvader said:

If you're rolling focus blank with BD's butt guns and not being able to modify, you're probably doing something wrong (not to mention that focus blank is a terrible roll anyway, average would be hit blank or hit focus). He's usually going to have TL/focus on basically all his rear arc shots because of Fire Control System. Changes of getting no hits on your actual guns are very low, before you add the crit.

I mean, you could say the same thing about the TIE Phantom. 4 dice are so underwhelming what if you roll all blanks? Well... you're not that likely to roll all blanks, and apart from your first shot per target, you're almost always going to have Target Lock, and mostly going to have focus as well.

Dooood.

I played Whisper just last week. Roll 4 dice, then 5 dice then 5 dice again: blank blank blank hit. The blank blank focus focus hit, no focus cuz i was blocked but had fcs... reroll: into blank blank focus focus hit for 1 hit, evaded. 3rd shot: blank blank blank hit hit hit: gets 3 natural evades with no tokens. 0 damage.

Now obviously I couldn't chain FCSs and I got blocked once (intentionally, so I had full focus fire). But really. 14 dice. 0 damage. Oh and I took 3 damage the first turn, blanking all my defense rolls into a crit (not a direct).

Anyways. Let's just say I've been playing since wave4 and I hold my own against Regional champs. Yes, sometimes there's something wrong. But I win a lot becuase I'm so aware of the ability of my dice to go cold. Completely cold.
I never plan to get lucky. I plan to be really unlucky.

So, yes I probably didn't get to shoot the FCS target, but that due to expected good play from my opponent. Not some crap player I can seal club.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Dooood.

I played Whisper just last week. Roll 4 dice, then 5 dice then 5 dice again: blank blank blank hit. The blank blank focus focus hit, no focus cuz i was blocked but had fcs... reroll: into blank blank focus focus hit for 1 hit, evaded. 3rd shot: blank blank blank hit hit hit: gets 3 natural evades with no tokens. 0 damage.

Now obviously I couldn't chain FCSs and I got blocked once (intentionally, so I had full focus fire). But really. 14 dice. 0 damage. Oh and I took 3 damage the first turn, blanking all my defense rolls into a crit (not a direct).

Anyways. Let's just say I've been playing since wave4 and I hold my own against Regional champs. Yes, sometimes there's something wrong. But I win a lot becuase I'm so aware of the ability of my dice to go cold. Completely cold.
I never plan to get lucky. I plan to be really unlucky.

So, yes I probably didn't get to shoot the FCS target, but that due to expected good play from my opponent. Not some crap player I can seal club.

If you plan to be really unlucky I'm assuming you're using like... RAC/VI/Vader/HotCoP/Gunner/Engine or something then? Whisper is pretty heavy on the variance, probably not the best choice for someone who's professing to have terrible dice

Backdraft's ability actually helps a lot, variance wise. It's not just an extra die, it's an extra die that *never* rolls worse than a crit.

This is a reminder that backdraft gets his thing only out the rear arc. And the path fo flying usually means you get some pretty junky shots.

You get to add a crit to 2 dice? whoopdiedoo.

Reminder that Jumps get 4 dice, focus and guidance chips to a guaranteed hit, plus plasma damage if you still had shields.

That's 3 dice and a guarantteeed hit! Plus plasma damage. plus usually a focus! (off K4)

And that's twice.

With better HP and better maneuver dial. For the SAME PRICE.

--

(No, I don't see a point in playing this game meta wise anymore.)

I'm happy to accept it as '3 dice' - just that it's 3 dice front or back is good enough!

Plus, you always have the potential for the "dearsweetholyjesusgod" strafing run.

It's hard to do, but if you can park Backdraft by the mid-point of a large ship's base, he's at range 1 in both arcs, and can use the alternate ability of Special Forces Training, triggering his ability and the range 1 bonus with both shots .

The most ridiculous shooting phase I've seen in a while was Quickdraw and Backdraft flying in and "bracketing" a jumpmaster from either side.

The result of dropping twelve attack dice and two automatic criticals can best be described as "spontaneous existence failure"

I just find it fun to use, anyway.

To be honest, my absolute favourite version of Backdraft is an odd budget version - Wired, Primed Thrusters, Collision Detector, Lightweight Frame, Special Forces Training and as many debris clouds as you can lay your mittens on...

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

If you plan to be really unlucky I'm assuming you're using like... RAC/VI/Vader/HotCoP/Gunner/Engine or something then? Whisper is pretty heavy on the variance, probably not the best choice for someone who's professing to have terrible dice

Backdraft's ability actually helps a lot, variance wise. It's not just an extra die, it's an extra die that *never* rolls worse than a crit.

How about this. Let's respect each other. We've both been round these parts for 7600 posts and 8000 posts.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is a reminder that backdraft gets his thing only out the rear arc. And the path fo flying usually means you get some pretty junky shots.

You get to add a crit to 2 dice? whoopdiedoo.

Reminder that Jumps get 4 dice, focus and guidance chips to a guaranteed hit, plus plasma damage if you still had shields.

That's 3 dice and a guarantteeed hit! Plus plasma damage. plus usually a focus! (off K4)

And that's twice.

With better HP and better maneuver dial. For the SAME PRICE.

--

(No, I don't see a point in playing this game meta wise anymore.)

Only out of their front arc at range 2-3

(And comparing basically anything to Jumpmasters is an unfair comparison given that Jumpmasters are broken. Unless that's the point you were shooting for...)

(And I'm getting to that point myself at the moment. The meta from wave 11 looks like it will make me want to stay at the club and play fun lists with nonmeta folks rather than try to do tourneys)

I've seena lot of people be very successful with BD, but even discounting the fact that LWF was clearly designed with the /sf in mind, it's taken people a long time to get used to flying him because this is the first ship where you not only don't want front towards enemy, you actively want enemy to be behind you. It's taken people a lot of getting used to, so it's not surprising results have been slow coming.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

How about this. Let's respect each other. We've both been round these parts for 7600 posts and 8000 posts.

I've not tried to be disrespectful. If it's come across that way I apologise.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'm happy to accept it as '3 dice' - just that it's 3 dice front or back is good enough!

Plus, you always have the potential for the "dearsweetholyjesusgod" strafing run.

It's hard to do, but if you can park Backdraft by the mid-point of a large ship's base, he's at range 1 in both arcs, and can use the alternate ability of Special Forces Training, triggering his ability and the range 1 bonus with both shots .

The most ridiculous shooting phase I've seen in a while was Quickdraw and Backdraft flying in and "bracketing" a jumpmaster from either side.

The result of dropping twelve attack dice and two automatic criticals can best be described as "spontaneous existence failure"

I really really want to get the unicorn shot with BD sometime but I've never managed to. It's insanely hilarious if you do though.

14 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

So, yes I probably didn't get to shoot the FCS target, but that due to expected good play from my opponent. Not some crap player I can seal club.

Without wanting to be a jerk about this, if you can't manage to get a shot on your FCS target with a potentially (VI) PS 9 ship with front and rear arcs and the barrel roll action, something's wrong or your opponent is flying an *exceptional* game.

1 minute ago, Jarval said:

Without wanting to be a jerk about this, if you can't manage to get a shot on your FCS target with a PS 9 ship with front and rear arcs and the barrel roll action, something's wrong or your opponent is flying an *exceptional* game.

He was playing Whisper. Not getting shot at by whisper is non-trivial, but still not too difficult, especially if you don't care about getting shots yourself - and forcing her to change targets is a really good strategy if you've got enough targets to go around.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

He was playing Whisper. Not getting shot at by whisper is non-trivial, but still not too difficult, especially if you don't care about getting shots yourself - and forcing her to change targets is a really good strategy if you've got enough targets to go around.

Ah, I thought we were talking Backdraft still, that's what had me confused.

In the whisper game i did lose 3/4 of my health the first turn i was shot at. and then did 0 damage for the next 14 red dice i rolled including fcs. still won that game. ... AND without losing Whisper.

as for backdraft, ill honestly say i dont have that much exp with it. i like to blow things up frontally. =) QD is my goto. Also i see everyone having a hard time actually making their SFs relevant if the opponent doesnt chase and the SF starts to fly away form the battle. You really start getting either to R3 or no shots.

including the fcs rerolls, i basically did something like 5 hits out of 20 dice rolled. yep. never blame the luck. play around the luck. Even the horrible luck.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

as for backdraft, ill honestly say i dont have that much exp with it. i like to blow things up frontally. =) QD is my goto. Also i see everyone having a hard time actually making their SFs relevant if the opponent doesnt chase and the SF starts to fly away form the battle. You really start getting either to R3 or no shots.

Quickdraw is pretty amazing.

Backdraft can be tricky to use well, for sure. Knowing when to turn around and bring your front arc back on target is an important part of flying him well, otherwise you end up with some sub-optimal shots as you highlight above. It's very easy to get blinkered into trying to "make the most" of Backdraft's pilot ability and mis-positioning yourself as a result.

The version of QD I play will aggressively sloop early to avoid the fight getting away from him. It's one of the reasons I don't like Backdraft - that turn where you use the rear arc instead of slooping your front arc around means that a lot of the time the next turn you're too far away.

I dropped Backdraft for Vader and getting that crit added on front arc shots instead.

On 22.06.2017 at 2:59 AM, devotedknight said:

Which is better, Tie Defender or the Tie/sf Fighter?

The question is too broad to be answered meaningfully. Firstly, there is a question of which pilots/configurations you mean. A generic defender in my opinion is better than a generic TIE/sf but the same is not neccesarily true for named pilots. There's also a massive difference between TIE/Ds and TIE/x7s - so much so, that I'd dare say that TIE/Ds are in some aspects more similar to TIE/sfs than to TIE/x7s.

Right now it goes more or less like this:

- TIE/x7 is now a solid, if uninspired and somewhat predictable workhorse of the imperial lists. It's tough to hit but the only pilots capable generating a good, stable firepower are PTL Ryad and Vessery (provided he has a partner to supply him with target locks). Their problem is that it's usually painfully obvious what they're gonna do. Some lists can't do anything with that knowledge because the white K-turn is such a powerful maneuver. But some lists can use that knowledge to either block or dodge the x7s which makes them hard to win with at high levels of play. They're probably the best choice for newer players though.

- TIE/D is somewhat less predictable because it gets no disadvantage from moving at speeds 1-2, which makes it's initial movement pattern much closer to that of TIE/sf (K-turn is still as predictable as always though). It is significantly squishier and more expensive than x7s but it's threat level is much higher than either x7 or SF. If TIE/Ds can get the vital component of the opponent's list in arc and ionize him/throw him into a rock, they can score the crucial first kill and steamroll the game. As a result, they tend to make the cut in large tournaments more frequently than x7s as of late. However, lack of evade makes them much squishier than x7s and they can go down really quickly if green dice fail them. It's also challenging to modify both of their attacks while still having focus for defence. Vessery helps there tremendously, but there's only one Colonel and TIE/Ds work best in pairs. Expertise is also great to have as it frees up focus for defence. Unfortunately that pushes TIE/Ds cost even further, leaving few points left for a third ship. Overall if you've got the skills to get your target in arcs and a bit of luck with your rolls, TIE/D can do great. If either of those fails, you can lose real bad.

- TIE/sf are a very mixed bunch - pretty much everything depends on who's the pilot:

- generics have been used with moderate success as alpha strike ordnance carriers but other than that they've been rather unimpressive. Even with the lightweight frame their defence is okayish at best while their rear arc is seldom up to snuff, so they will typically fly like old style medium fighters - and just like them, they probably won't be very succesful.

- Backdraft on the other hand has excellent rear arc - and a crucial flaw. It's a ship that will only be worth it's points if it fires from the rear. However, firing from the rear forces you to fly AWAY from the enemy. If the enemy ships follow you - great. But if they just ignore you and instead shoot at the rest of your list, you'll quickly get into R3, where your attacks are less effective, and then you'll just fly out of range completely, typically taking a couple of turns to get back in and even more time before you can start using your rear arc again. As a result Backdraft is notoriously difficult to coordinate with the rest of your list and the results of using him aren't always up to expectations. The one exception might be when Backdraft is paired with a Decimator, as both ships can move away from the enemy and shoot back, but I've found other ships or pilots are even better partners for a decimator. It also doesn't help that Backdraft is no tougher than any other SF and can go down rather quickly if focused.

- Quickdraw is by far the strongest SF pilot and one most likely to survive. While technically he's just as squishy as the rest of SFs, often enough he just doesn't get shot at. If the enemy do focus him early on, his extra attack can overload enemy tokens and secure the early kill. If he isn't, in the late game the threat of extra attack will typically make the enemy even more wary of shooting him. He's still vulnerable to being flanked (or at least shot from the rear, where his counterattack is far less threatening) but he's definitely the most solid of TIE/sfs and he's a great provider of target locks for Vessery. He's also the most flexible when it comes to the types of lists you can put him in. He works well as a partner to a decimator, but he can also be paired with Vessery, an ordnance bomber or pretty much anything else and perform well. Especially if you can get another significant threat in your list, you can be pretty sure QD will be ignored, giving him enough time to do his job and get into the late game, where he shines.

Quote

Backdraft on the other hand has excellent rear arc - and a crucial flaw. It's a ship that will only be worth it's points if it fires from the rear.

I agree with Jarval here - Backdraft's ability isn't so good as to make me deliberately turn around to use the tail guns instead of the nose guns. But , if someone's behind me, I won't feel like I have to turn around either . Which means I'm much more at liberty to dial in bizarre moves that should avoid your arc, because I'm less bothered about lining up mine.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be honest, my absolute favourite version of Backdraft is an odd budget version - Wired, Primed Thrusters, Collision Detector, Lightweight Frame, Special Forces Training and as many debris clouds as you can lay your mittens on...

That actually seems like a really nice build! I don't fly my tie/sf often as I just find them WAY too clunky to fly. This however seems great as I can fly him around stressed all day long, which massively opens up the crappy dial!

That's the main advantage of the combination of tech and systems slots to me. Being able to Segnor's loop, barrel roll, and still get an acceptably modified attack from front or back makes Backdraft irritatingly squirrely.

Alternatively, if you want to stick to a 30 point ceiling, you can do worse than Trick Shot if you plan on hugging debris.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I agree with Jarval here - Backdraft's ability isn't so good as to make me deliberately turn around to use the tail guns instead of the nose guns. But , if someone's behind me, I won't feel like I have to turn around either . Which means I'm much more at liberty to dial in bizarre moves that should avoid your arc, because I'm less bothered about lining up mine.

Yeah, Backdrafts advantage is unpredictability. If you are head on with backdraft, you have zero idea where he is going. A 2 sharp left is as good as a 2 sharp right. A 1 forward with a primary arc shot is equal (or even worse) then a 4 straight, hopping over you for a rear butt shot. "Oh, a defender is kturning behind me? Ok, I will 1 straight. No need to sloop and not have a focus for defense."

18 hours ago, Skargoth said:

Vess is a very solid pick, but for a point cheaper I make this recommendation:

Maarek x7 VI

99 total

Only run it once in Vassal but so cool.

Now you're running three beef Imps at PS9 and you leave Maarek to shoot last and crit fish. Also few lists want to fly even remotely head on when there's potential to be PS killed.

I like it.