Which is better, Tie Defender or the Tie/sf Fighter?

Depends on what you are going for. An x7 Defender can be much tankier than a /sf could hope to be. With the right upgrades (or friends in the case of Vessery), Defenders can hit solid enough. Where I think the /sf outshines the Defender is versatility due to it's slots and it's pilot abilities/PS. QuickDraw out PSs even Rexler for cheaper (even with a good assortment of upgrades) and can be a threatening piece that people want to avoid shooting at unless necessary/a good opportunity. Backdraft makes full effect of the duel arc and can fly unlike even his fellow /sf pilots. Add to that he can also has enough upgrades slots to giving hm VI does hurt that much, and you have yet another PS 9 /sf for cheaper than some standard Defenders.

With stress around, I would say take an /sf over a Defender. If not, it all depends on what I want out of it.

Jumpmasters....yep, Jumpmasters are better.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

With stress around, I would say take an /sf over a Defender. If not, it all depends on what I want out of it.

I 100% agree. I would add the amazing blockers that are the scouts as a major downside for Defenders as well. In the current meta i would chose SF.

It's not like the Imperials have anything like a Jumpmaster. And I don't play scum.

5 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I 100% agree. I would add the amazing blockers that are the scouts as a major downside for Defenders as well. In the current meta i would chose SF.

Very true on the blocker side.

Now, a Defender that can work around some of these problems is Countess Ryad. Her variable k-turn makes blocking her harder in the right hands. She still have problems with double stressors, but against singles (which I've seen more of in my area, thanks to Mindlink), her ability + Mk II engines allows her to keep x7 working. Throw Predator on her, and you gotta solid fighter.

Two sides of the same coin.

Both are: 3die (out the front), 3hull3shield, have access to a decent amount of upgrades, and have an odd flight pattern.

But, they are almost exact opposites in flight pattern. SFs are on average more squishy due to 2agi, but LWF usually brings that back to 3 and its flight pattern lets it dodge more arcs while still getting attacks than the defender does.

90% of the time the difference to me is literally the flight pattern. Defenders like to joust and are one of if not the best joust-rebounder with the white 4k (or in ryad's case, 2-5k) which, assuming they survive the joust, lets them just keep hammering on the same target w/o needing to switch or regroup. SFs on the other hand like to cut around corners and try to sneak shots in odd angles that any other ship wouldnt be able to get a shot, which leads to not getting shot in the process.

I almost interchange them in my lists, both of my common builds with them are 35pts so it works well that way. Only if i am running a list where i need to stick together do i prefer the defender over the SF, or if i need a solid tank do i prefer the Defender over the SF.

Defenders are really nice.

S/F's are really nice.

Do you want:

A high speed move ship, that is somewhat predictable, but almost always gains a defensive bonus, or a double tap when using an ion/stress/tractor beam cannon? With a good range of pilot skills, (1-8 native). It is more expensive than most other ships in it's class though, and it will be targeted first most times because people don't want to deal with it. The Defender is your ship.

If however, you want a ship that is slightly cheaper, can carry newer mods such as the tech upgrade, jousts better, and comes with dual firing arc's and a title that helps boost those arc's attacks, the S/F is for you. only 4 pilots (Ps 3-9) but they do have an ace without VI, so your EPT is free for other things. There's also more defensive options availiable to the S/F because of it's 2 defense dice like Lightweight frame. Also their pilot abilities are arguably more useful as a whole.

It could also depend a lot on play style. I have found SF's are easier to kill, but Defenders are easier to predict what move they will do.

It's like asking which is better between chocolate and peanut butter. They're both good on their own, but the magic comes when you combine them.

I'll echo what others have said.

Defenders have toughness (x7) or offense and control (D, at a significant premium). They are fast, but can have predictable optimized moves.

SFs have terrific offense thanks to FCS, and their PS is great and comes pretty cheap, and they really don't need specific EPTs, giving you a lot of flexibility. They get beat up a lot easier, but the price is nice. They're movement follows an opposite pattern of Defenders. Instead of fast and sort of predictable, they're slow and shifty. They're hard to predict because they can attack from a lot of angles.

Both ships can punch hard after the main engagment, Defender because it's K-turn is white (or green), and SF because FCS keeps offense going, or it just attacks from the rear arc.

Why not both?

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

It's like asking which is better between chocolate and peanut butter. They're both good on their own, but the magic comes when you combine them.

amen

Both ship are really good but Tie/SF with system and tech can be deadly or play a nice support ship in your fleet.

I just wished the TIE/sf special forces title simply just gave it a plain 3 dice rear-firing arc, instead of that 2 dicefront-and-back shoot - and a crew slot (possibly capped to 4 pt). But hey, perhaps I just cannot fly the ship well-enough.

I love flying defenders though and I have taken 1 championship with them post-the-big-nerf.

7 hours ago, devotedknight said:

Which is better, Tie Defender or the Tie/sf Fighter?

Yes.

Neither. Theyre both not up to monster meta par. =)

Defenders!!!

Lightened frame helps the sf considerably without it they drop like stones.

Thing is defenders arnt as reliant on upgrades and upgrades can make an expensive ship, limited defence means a bloated target rich for hunting so you have to balance carefully.

But unlike at release the sf is in a much better place.

I like them both, but I'd go for the /SF at the moment - not least because I won a Store Championship at the weekend with the list below...

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

"Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Crack Shot (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Neither. Theyre both not up to monster meta par. =)

You say that, but I won against triple bombing Ks and the Worlds Dengar/Tel list twice at the Store Championship with the list above. The TIE/SF is surprisingly good, at least when it comes to the named pilots.

40 minutes ago, Jarval said:

I like them both, but I'd go for the /SF at the moment - not least because I won a Store Championship at the weekend with the list below...

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

"Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Crack Shot (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I have a similar list that I have yet to play, so there's that, but my question is how did the SFs do well w/o PA or PT (and LWF)? I would think the need to BR off of a red maneuver would be very helpful, if not critical, to the longevity of the list. Especially as you are not using LWF, how did you avoid shots? 2 green dice in the current meta is not enough, I think.

Also, what was your impression of OL without Stealth Device?

I like this
Backdraft Veteran Instincts Fire-Control System Lightweight Frame Special Ops Training
Quickdraw A Score To Settle Fire-Control System Lightweight Frame Special Ops Training
Colonel Vessery Juke TIE/x7

17 minutes ago, Scopes said:

I have a similar list that I have yet to play, so there's that, but my question is how did the SFs do well w/o PA or PT (and LWF)? I would think the need to BR off of a red maneuver would be very helpful, if not critical, to the longevity of the list. Especially as you are not using LWF, how did you avoid shots? 2 green dice in the current meta is not enough, I think.

Also, what was your impression of OL without Stealth Device?

Pattern Analyser or Primed Thrusters would be great to have on both, but I've found the 2 point bid really important, at least in my local meta. There's quite a lot of PS 9 floating around, so getting to move second (and so target lock more easily) is a big deal. But you're not wrong, having a barrel roll off a red would be ideal. That said, FCS at least means you've got some offensive dice modification when you're doing those S-loops or red turns.

As for longevity, they can be a focused down quite quickly, but I've been avoiding that by taking ships off the board before they get to shoot - PS killing is a more achievable thing with a pair of PS 9s throwing 4 decently modified red dice apiece. This list lives or dies on its opening exchange, but those homing missiles have been doings good work, particularly when paired with Crack Shot to push a vital point of damage through. Almost every time I've faced an /X7 Defender with this list, I've taken it off the board before it's got to shoot thanks to the Homing Missiles suppressing the evade token. And by the time OL is shooting, they usually don't have a focus token left to counter Juke.

OL without Stealth Device has been working fine, although that's at least in part due to the other ships being a bigger threat. People want to wipe Quickdraw and Backdraft off the table as quickly as possible, which usually means that there's one or two fewer enemy ships by the time Omega Leader is getting shot at.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Neither. Theyre both not up to monster meta par. =)

Not in my experience.

I admit it's probably more difficult to win games with imperial ships than just running jm5ks into each other and still getting full mods ala k4 and attani (and then always having a shot because the PWT is a stupid game mechanic), but SF and x7s are strong enough and high PS to ruin scouts before they get a torp off (over two rounds)

defenders are also beefy as all hell and can take a surprising amount of punishment, so they don't stack up too badly against the massive amounts of red dice being thrown