New blog article out - There's nothing wrong with the Jumpmaster
Flotillas have just been nerfed. Atanni Mindlink will have its reckoning.
42 minutes ago, Resolver said:
Well, despite your click-bait title I read your article anyways.
In my opinion, you are quite wrong. Your basic argument as to why the Jumpmaster is not broken is as follows:
QuoteThis is very much the story of x-wing as long as I have played. Something comes along that shakes the community, be it a new ship, upgrade, pilot or list. The “New hotness” enjoys a spell of success and has a lot of adoption with new players that are learning the ropes. The community often has a spell of outcry but then adapts to it and moves on.
You argue that it's up to players to stop "resisting change" and "adapt and move on" by accepting the Jumpmaster (which I assume means either (1) learn to beat it, (2) learn to fly it, or (3) learn to love losing to it). Either way, this is ridiculous, as you cite several other ships that were meta-defining and then faded away: Dash, Whisper,
etc
. What you fail to mention is that Jumpmasters have been meta-definining and dominant for well over a year and a half of tournaments, since Wave 8 now through Wave 10 (and all the mini-sets in between, like HotR). This is
despite
Jumpmaster builds receiving four specific nerfs along the way, and there's nothing in the CROC or Wave 11 that yet suggests Jumpmaster builds that are doing well now won't continue to do well.
So, your argument is basically: "Eh, the meta is always evolving and has always evolved, get used to it." However, what this fails to acknowledge is that the Jumpmaster's dominance has been different in
kind
, not just in
degree
to other past dominant ships. And, since Wave 8 dropped, the meta hasn't really evolved that much, it's just been different flavors of Jumpmaster dominance: first Triple Torp Scouts, then Dengaroo, then Parattani, and now Dengar/Tel, Dengar/Bossk, and Dengar/Fenn with Torp Scouts still making semi-regular appearances.
I've been playing competitively for five years now. I've seen Howl Swarms in all their ferociousness, Dual Falcons, BBBBZ, Whisper, Fat Han, Super Dash, RAC, Dual IGs, and all the other meta-defining ships rise and fall. I've never seen anything like the Jumpmaster's degenerative dominance before. It is unlike anything we have seen, and simply "adapting" to it means basically learning to embrace the Jumpmaster vs Jumpmaster metagame as we all continue to play Jumpaster: The Miniatures Game. Until FFG comes along and cleans up this big mistake of a chassis, it will never go anywhere.
Interesting opinion. At the risk of sounding flippant I guess it boils down to: Think harder and better. Fly better. Don't fall for the groupthink.
All generally valid points, of course. But it doesn't mean that there cannot exist a ship or combo that is in flagrant excess of the general power curve. I'm not even in a position to say that attani Jumpmasters are that ship or combo. I'm just saying that you could write this exact article about any past or future meta-defining game piece, and it may or may not be true in each context. To argue specifically that the jumpmaster is not a real problem you should probably address it more specifically, either showing that the options to viably counter it exist, or that its power has been overstated, or both.
6 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:
the second one, now with 100% more X-wing theme:
I used push the limit's alt art form because blue:
All the ships you mentioned that were meta defining were also specific builds that made the ship insane, not the ship itself.
JM5K has been nerfed several times and it keeps finding another build thats just as ridiculous. When the frame itself is crazy, practically any build is crazy on it. Super Dash literally has no variance other than Mangler instead of HLC if you are afraid of the donut....thats it...JM5K (not factoring nerfs) has over 6 builds that are were meta-hammers and nearly impossible to beat without a specific list to counter it.
You're right, theres nothing wrong with the jm5k. And thats the problem: there IS nothing wrong with it at all thus it has too much diversified strengths. Every ship has a weakness, even the Protectorate has an issue of being super squishy despite being pretty insane as well. Whats the JM5K's flaw? Definitely isnt its dial.
TLDR: Jumpmasters are fine, they keep winning because the people using them are better at the game and no one has been confident enough to even try to build a list against them
lol, right
Ugh. I want that three minutes of my life back. (Yes, yes, TWSS.)
Tel: Jumpmasters are fine.
Dengar: I know, right?
Manaroo: Toats undeserved. They should undo the nerfs.
Tel: Agreed.
Dengar. Then we could hang out more, bae!
Contracted Scout: Hold my beer. YOLO!!!!
The JM5K doesn't have much time left. As soon as Guns for Hire drops, all kinds of players are going to change to Scyks, Khirazx, and StarVipers because they are so tired of winning with the most reliable ship in the game.
As if.
10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:The JM5K doesn't have much time left. As soon as Guns for Hire drops, all kinds of players are going to change to Scyks, Khirazx, and StarVipers because they are so tired of winning with the most reliable ship in the game.
As if.
Or, ya know, ffg will nerf the jumpmaster
Yeah? How?
Will they include new text that says, "If you have a ship with the name Jumpmaster in your title, your hull and shield are only half (round down) of what is printed on your card?"
7 minutes ago, KelRiever said:Yeah? How?
Will they include new text that says, "If you have a ship with the name Jumpmaster in your title, your hull and shield are only half (round down) of what is printed on your card?"
I'm not one of the designers, I don't know HOW they'll do it, but they will. The can errata whatever they want in the FAQ, jsut like they did with palp, x7, etc. In this case they'll likely have to break down and make a more drastic change than they have in the past, either changing the cost or something else inherent to the ship itself (people have suggested moving BR to the title, or the astro slot, removing the second torp slot, etc)
4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:I'm not one of the designers, I don't know HOW they'll do it, but they will. The can errata whatever they want in the FAQ, jsut like they did with palp, x7, etc. In this case they'll likely have to break down and make a more drastic change than they have in the past, either changing the cost or something else inherent to the ship itself (people have suggested moving BR to the title, or the astro slot, removing the second torp slot, etc)
Remove both torpedos imo. Otherwise it's just plasma and scavenging crane which is only marginally different from now.
1 hour ago, Hawkstrike said:Tel: Jumpmasters are fine.
Dengar: I know, right?
Manaroo: Toats undeserved. They should undo the nerfs.
Tel: Agreed.
Dengar. Then we could hang out more, bae!
Contracted Scout: Hold my beer. YOLO!!!!
Hey now, I actually
use
Tel's ability, instead of just being a VI'ed Torp boat.
Mandatory title "JumpMonster (0 pts, JM5K only, mandatory title): When you place the ship on the board, it explodes, no save."
I don't understand why people are so polarised on this. It's like American politics; no-one willing to admit there's a middle ground, and just inhabiting the insanity on the fringes.
Yes, the Jumpmaster is above the curve and has been OP.
Yes, you can defeat it without a specific build to combat it.
RoV
4 hours ago, Resolver said:
"Waiter.....I'll have what he's having."
4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:You argue that it's up to players to stop "resisting change" and "adapt and move on" by accepting the Jumpmaster (which I assume means either (1) learn to beat it, (2) learn to fly it, or (3) learn to love losing to it). Either way, this is ridiculous, as you cite several other ships that were meta-defining and then faded away: Dash, Whisper, etc . What you fail to mention is that Jumpmasters have been meta-definining and dominant for well over a year and a half of tournaments, since Wave 8 now through Wave 10 (and all the mini-sets in between, like HotR). This is despite Jumpmaster builds receiving four specific nerfs along the way, and there's nothing in the CROC or Wave 11 that yet suggests Jumpmaster builds that are doing well now won't continue to do well.
So, your argument is basically: "Eh, the meta is always evolving and has always evolved, get used to it." However, what this fails to acknowledge is that the Jumpmaster's dominance has been different in kind , not just in degree to other past dominant ships. And, since Wave 8 dropped, the meta hasn't really evolved that much, it's just been different flavors of Jumpmaster dominance: first Triple Torp Scouts, then Dengaroo, then Parattani, and now Dengar/Tel, Dengar/Bossk, and Dengar/Fenn with Torp Scouts still making semi-regular appearances.
I've been playing competitively for five years now. I've seen Howl Swarms in all their ferociousness, Dual Falcons, BBBBZ, Whisper, Fat Han, Super Dash, RAC, Dual IGs, and all the other meta-defining ships rise and fall. I've never seen anything like the Jumpmaster's degenerative dominance before. It is unlike anything we have seen, and simply "adapting" to it means basically learning to embrace the Jumpmaster vs Jumpmaster metagame as we all continue to play Jumpaster: The Miniatures Game. Until FFG comes along and cleans up this big mistake of a chassis, it will never go anywhere.
This. ^
Also: "There is nothing wrong with the Jumpmaster. The other ships that are overpriced by 2-4 points."
Jump master vs. Jump master.
How sad.
2 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:Yes, you can defeat it without a specific build to combat it.
Not meant to be calling you out in particular, RoV, but you have conveniently made this point.
Anyway: this argument does. Not. Matter.
That you can defeat a thing without needing to hard counter it is irrelevant as to whether or not said thing qualifies as needing a nerf. It was possible to beat pre-nerf Phantoms without having to hard counter them, but the degree of difficulty was unacceptably high. Likewise, while you can beat the various Jumpmaster lists without hard countering them, but you are putting yourself at an objective disadvantage by even making the attempt. That is why the Jumpmaster needs to be nerfed.
Edited by DR4CO6 hours ago, Resolver said:
http://gitb.weebly.com/blog/a-reply-about-the-jm5k
My Reply and my regards
CJ
5 minutes ago, DR4CO said:Not meant to be calling you out in particular, RoV, but you have conveniently made this point.
Anyway: this argument does. Not. Matter.
That you can defeat a thing without needing to hard counter it is irrelevant as to whether or not said thing qualifies as needing a nerf. It was possible to beat pre-nerf Phantoms without having to hard counter them, but the degree of difficulty was unacceptably high. Likewise, while you can beat the various Jumpmaster lists without hard countering them, but you are putting yourself at an objective disadvantage by even making the attempt. That is why the Jumpmaster needs to be nerfed.
I never said it couldn't do with scaling back a tad. As it is, I feel it is too strong, but certainly not broken. Anymore.
I wasn't making the argument that just because it can be beaten means no nerf etc is needed. I was rebutting the idea that it needs a nerf because it can't be beaten without tailoring a list.
See, in this case in the middle ground is the truth lol.
RoV
4 hours ago, KelRiever said:Yeah? How?
Will they include new text that says, "If you have a ship with the name Jumpmaster in your title, your hull and shield are only half (round down) of what is printed on your card?"
3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:I'm not one of the designers, I don't know HOW they'll do it, but they will. The can errata whatever they want in the FAQ, jsut like they did with palp, x7, etc. In this case they'll likely have to break down and make a more drastic change than they have in the past, either changing the cost or something else inherent to the ship itself (people have suggested moving BR to the title, or the astro slot, removing the second torp slot, etc)
Hey, 5th time's the charm.