7 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Well then their dice must cause issues. Those aren't miniatures yet they have the star wars logo on the packaging.

I'm sure their licence covers game aids. Cards and more cardboard would qualify.

Well good as long as you are sure they should be good to go then, no legal issues at all. If there is a legal issue they can just point to BadMotivator's post detailing how he is "sure" as the legal expert on the matter and all should be golden.

IP and licensing issues are very complex, they very well may not be allowed to sell anything for x-wing without a miniature.

2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

I believe I read somewhere that its a licensing issue. Basically it's the fact that their product is the miniature, and everything they sell has to contain at least 1 mini.

So put a 3D Senator's Shuttle in there. Or a shipping container, mine, escape pod, or satellite. Not exactly an insurmountable issue.

They said they won't do it, and they didn't give any reason at all.

That is enough for me to join the dots: lawyers.

We are barking at the wrong tree, as they say.

The real question is why the_______don't they package and sell their own brand of acrylic tokens and templates. They are losing their butts to companies like litko and others who do their own version. I understand wanting to keep it fancy prize support, but I'm a server currently, I work the weekends as doubles. I can't go to 99%of events to even compete (not that I play X-wing in competitive anymore, screw that noise) let alone win consistently enough to get a full set of tokens.

Hey FFG, sell your initial runs of every acrylic token you've made for all your games, and then swim in the pile of cash you get from it. Your welcome!

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

They said they won't do it, and they didn't give any reason at all.

That is enough for me to join the dots: lawyers.

We are barking at the wrong tree, as they say.

The fact they're so tight-lipped and simultaneously so adamantly firm on it suggests that yeah, it's lawyers, and lawyers that get touchy having their contracts discussed publicly.

I do like the idea of a mission pack coming with, eg, a Senators Shuttle or something, if they can't just sell a box of cardboard & cards by itself. An official Heroes of the Aturi Cluster would be worth every penny.

8 hours ago, KelRiever said:

I've never used a forum before. Teach me how please.

In the meantime, Most Wanted is a perfect example of why do something different. I have literally no interest in any ship in that pack. But I'd pay for some Firespray cards in a separate pack if they came in them. Most Wanted, imo, is a terrible buy, and putting Firespray cards in there was only a good idea as a bonus.

Yeah, such a terrible buy that myself and many other people I play with regularly bought at least two Most Wanted.

.

13 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

Yeah, such a terrible buy that myself and many other people I play with regularly bought at least two Most Wanted.

Totally missing the point.

WizKids originally said they wouldn't do a card pack either but now they are releasing "faction packs" which provide the majority of faction specific upgrade cards found across numerous ships.

That being said, they are also re-releasing all the wave 1 - 10 ships, with new, better paint jobs and adjusted card text/points.

Suppose that is what happens when you have a failing product sitting at wave 27 and some 155 ships.

16 hours ago, heychadwick said:

They said they won't do it. No point in bringing it up. Think it might have something to do with their license from Lucas Arts.

The eastern bloc said this wall is for ever. No point in bringing it up. ;-)
FFG seems fine to sell use useless ships with their card packs, because they can charge extra for those. They have all the card licensing they ever would need, they basically release anything around the hobby market, cards, dice, models, boardgames, everything.

They just don't want too and I can understand that because it admitting that they expansions need those card packs and furthermore the ace packs make them good money, while not scaring away new customer, unlike card packs would.
Besides, I really would prefer a good set of missions with lots of cool cards, just like what they did with armada to a naked card pack anyway.

Card packs will never happen. Why? Because if they are published, a monkey-like creature with a man's face will drag an infant to the attic of the abandoned house down the street, where the child will be sacrificed by a witch who has learned to travel unimaginable distances to unspeakable places, and to times not remembered by any creature that could offer the human race even the smallest glimpse of comfort. Card packs bring us to the edge of a sepulchrous oblivion, so let us hope that some sanity yet remains and this horrible deed is never done.

56 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The eastern bloc said this wall is for ever. No point in bringing it up. ;-)
FFG seems fine to sell use useless ships with their card packs, because they can charge extra for those. They have all the card licensing they ever would need, they basically release anything around the hobby market, cards, dice, models, boardgames, everything.

First off, I will disagree with your "useless ships" comment.

Next, it's not like FFG has some sort of blank check to make what they want. They have agreements made for X-wing. Then they have agreements for Armada. Then they have one for the next game. Each one is tailored to exactly what they can and can't do.

There are all kinds of labyrinths to be found in licensing agreements. For a while, FFG could not do Star Wars board games, as Hasbro had those rights. That's likely why Descent is listed as a board game here but Imperial Assault -- which is essentially a Star Wars-themed Descent -- was labelled a miniatures game. Now something must have changed to allow Rebellion to happen -- there's no denying that's a board game, and it's called such -- but it's possible the older games are still bound by terms of previous agreements.

21 hours ago, Icelom said:

Well good as long as you are sure they should be good to go then, no legal issues at all. If there is a legal issue they can just point to BadMotivator's post detailing how he is "sure" as the legal expert on the matter and all should be golden.

IP and licensing issues are very complex, they very well may not be allowed to sell anything for x-wing without a miniature.

Again, if it's literally that they cannot sell anything that doesn't contain a miniature. Then their dice as well as the maneuver dials would be clear breaches of contract. As would their playmats and the colored base+peg sets.

If Armada falls under the same deal, then we could lump in the Armada maneuver gauge too.

Yes, IP and licensing is complex. But if their current contract would prevent anything that doesn't contain a miniature from being sold by them, then the dice and other accessories would be clear violations that you don't need to be any sort of expert to see. So clearly they are allowed to sell things without miniatures contained within.

It can be worked out. Seriously, they can include a bunch of cards in a re-release of a fighter with a slightly different paint scheme. I'd still rather get new X-Wing pilots in an x-wing blister, than do something ridiculous like have to search for new cards in a big ship upgrade, for a big ship I have no desire to get.

FFG simply has to get a little creative with it, if they have a license to follow

Indeed. If for some reason they are explicitly forbidden from releasing just a card pack(which would be an odd restriction to have in a contract) for X-wing. Then they can easily just put out a 2.0 version of a ship pack.

Just name them X-wing Expansion Pack 2, TIE Fighter Expansion Pack 2, etc...

Not a replacement of the original pack, but a set of new pilots and cards. So if someone wants 2 of a ship, they're not forced to just get a total pack duplicate with a 2nd set of cards they already own. They could get 2 TIE fighters and get 2 different sets of cards.

On 6/21/2017 at 2:56 PM, MasterShake2 said:

Actually Corellia Campaign from Armada was pretty interesting in this regards. It had lots of campaign stuff and whatever, but it also had a ton of new pilots and cardboard to put them in the game and no miniatures. Perhaps that was the way they found to get around the licensing issue? It is possible that the issue is exclusive to X-Wing and the Armada agreement is more loosely defined, but if they have the same agreement a "Fight for random planet XYZ" campaign expansion for X-Wing could be an option.

I don't think the "must contain one miniature" is really a licensing requirement.

As you astutely note, Armada's Corellian Conflict had all cards and cardboard and no minis. The Dice Packs, Custom Bases, Custom Dial Covers, and Mats are X-Wing products that do not contain any miniatures. And FFG clearly has the rights to the Star Wars card games (Destiny, the LCG).

I think it is purely a marketing (read: profit margin) decision to not do card-and-cardboard only packs for X-Wing.

11 hours ago, heychadwick said:

First off, I will disagree with your "useless ships" comment.

Noted. So hurray for 3 star vipers, 3 Interceptors, just to have the cards to fly one

31 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Noted. So hurray for 3 star vipers, 3 Interceptors, just to have the cards to fly one

3 vipers? The fix pack comes with stuff for two vipers plus one model so if you had the old one you're set for two right there.

And I don't care - extra ships are always fun. Especially if they're ones I like.

3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

3 vipers? The fix pack comes with stuff for two vipers plus one model so if you had the old one you're set for two right there.

And I don't care - extra ships are always fun. Especially if they're ones I like.

But I like to fly triple aces, thus I have already bought 4 autothrusters. Which actually will come handy as Old Fenn Cobra or Guri I will need again 3 autothrusters.
Still, with the ace pack I have 3 starvipers, but only two titles to fix them, great? I guess I need to buy another one and just fly a swarm of useless ships then …

6 hours ago, KelRiever said:

It can be worked out. Seriously, they can include a bunch of cards in a re-release of a fighter with a slightly different paint scheme. I'd still rather get new X-Wing pilots in an x-wing blister, than do something ridiculous like have to search for new cards in a big ship upgrade, for a big ship I have no desire to get.

FFG simply has to get a little creative with it, if they have a license to follow

They already do this. Imperial Aces, Rebel Aces, Imperial Veterans, and the latest Scum pack all feature plastic sculpts with repaints... and a higher than normal density of cards-per-ship.

46 minutes ago, Reiver said:

They already do this. Imperial Aces, Rebel Aces, Imperial Veterans, and the latest Scum pack all feature plastic sculpts with repaints... and a higher than normal density of cards-per-ship.

But follow the thread....the point of preference would be card packs without a plastic ship.

And if a plastic ship has to be included, why does a set have to MSRP $30 and include other things not wanted? The point is to get X-Wing cards with an X-wing, not some other ship or expansion.

Anyway, please follow the thread, it's more detailed than what you are providing an answer for.

By the way that's not to say if you disagree, it's a problem. I'm making a different suggestion. I don't like the way it stands now, or as it's happened, to the point I'm not making those purchases. Like I said, I think card packs is a smarter move for FFG than what exists, imo.

9 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Indeed. If for some reason they are explicitly forbidden from releasing just a card pack(which would be an odd restriction to have in a contract) for X-wing. Then they can easily just put out a 2.0 version of a ship pack.

Just name them X-wing Expansion Pack 2, TIE Fighter Expansion Pack 2, etc...

Not a replacement of the original pack, but a set of new pilots and cards. So if someone wants 2 of a ship, they're not forced to just get a total pack duplicate with a 2nd set of cards they already own. They could get 2 TIE fighters and get 2 different sets of cards.

I hate to point out the obvious but did you even read the first post? he explicitly stated that he has enough T65, TIE LN etc ships that he could ever want to play with but just wants more options for those ships without having to buy redundant models.

Having said that the reality is that a lot of cost of the expansions is in the R&D of designing the cards in the ships rather than the plastic models themselves, so if they were to release card only packs the cost would still be $10US or more anyways an certainly not the $5 that I have heard people mention in previous threads about this issue.

I will also reiterate what many say that for those of us that have no interest in epic it’s a real pain that they keep releasing 100/6 playable cards in the epic box sets, I'm actually glad that there's not an obviously good tier 1 playable card for 100/6 in the C-ROC.

Whether its Lawyers or FFG have investigated and found that they aren't profitable who knows, but in the short term additional pilots for existing ships will not be arriving in a booster form any time soon.

We can only hope that the campaign pack for Armada is a sign of a possible way of getting more pilot options without the models in the future at a reasonable cost, as there has been many calling for a campaign style version of the game, HOTAC is an amazingly intricate fan made version that I hope FGG can go 1 better than.

2 hours ago, KelRiever said:

But follow the thread....the point of preference would be card packs without a plastic ship.

And if a plastic ship has to be included, why does a set have to MSRP $30 and include other things not wanted? The point is to get X-Wing cards with an X-wing, not some other ship or expansion.

Anyway, please follow the thread, it's more detailed than what you are providing an answer for.

By the way that's not to say if you disagree, it's a problem. I'm making a different suggestion. I don't like the way it stands now, or as it's happened, to the point I'm not making those purchases. Like I said, I think card packs is a smarter move for FFG than what exists, imo.

Quote

It can be worked out. Seriously, they can include a bunch of cards in a re-release of a fighter with a slightly different paint scheme. I'd still rather get new X-Wing pilots in an x-wing blister...

(emphasis mine)

I was noting that the thing that 'can be worked out', in order to get you 'new X-wing pilots in an x-wing blister" is literally what they already do.

Quote

I will also reiterate what many say that for those of us that have no interest in epic it’s a real pain that they keep releasing 100/6 playable cards in the epic box sets, I'm actually glad that there's not an obviously good tier 1 playable card for 100/6 in the C-ROC.

The Scyk unique pilots are three for four, if I'm any judge: Sunny Bounder is awesome, as is Genisis Red, and Inaldra is a TPV (IE, low-cost EPT carrier) with a discount, special ability be damned.

Then again, that's only relevant to Scum, and specific builds per se. Nothing at the level of the Emperor or C3PO in there, thank goodness...