2 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

The Spider.

I'm not sure where "slowly infiltrate, kill off, and replace the samurai of a minor clan" equates to valuing personal freedom.

SPARROW CLAN NEVAR FORGET

That "original vision" of the Dragon was of the Dragon as a walking, talking plot device who did things without rhyme or reason "because we're mysterious and we have a millenia-long master plan".

It doesn't make for very good storytelling, and it makes for a singularly bad faction in a competitive game.

Personally I can't help but see the Perfect Land Sect in terms of the Protestant/Catholic dichotomy, where you have the belief that salvation comes from faith alone as opposed to from both faith and good works.

I was pleasantly surprised with how much I enjoyed this fic. The previous two seemed to mostly retread old ground whereas this one establishes some of how the new setting is distinct from the old one.

Since water is the element of change I feel like the wave might simply be a wave of change that sweeps across the Empire and leaves its enemies exposed.

13 hours ago, WHW said:

- WHOA MASASHIGE ARE YOU ACTUALLY TRYING TO PROPOSE MINDRAPING THE SECT LEADERS INTO OBEDIENCE THAT'S ****** UP DUDE...but, on the other hand, it begs a question - is mind-controlling a person so they surrender really that much worse than beating them into a bloody pulp and forcing them to surrender? Hard choices.

Eh, I'm generally in favor of reprogramming the heretic geth in Mass Effect 2. It preserves the most life possible and I have a hard time seeing turning murderous xenophobes into beings capable of peaceful coexistence as something you shouldn't do. This situation isn't exactly the same, but you could maybe look at it as treating someone who's violently mentally deranged so they become capable of functioning in society.

Hmm... that got rather Orwellian, but Rokugan is already a totalitarian theocracy so it would be somewhat setting appropriate if the Dragon became the thought police.

Quick points that I might unpack later when I will have time:

1. Original Dragon was tailor-crafted for a very specific story with very specific outcome and actions in mind. I don't think it's fair to demand that original Dragon Clan in any other story, because it simply isn't well suit for anything else. Togashi who receives visions is better for storytelling than Togashi who received a massive vision up until THAT moment, because the first can function for multiple stories. Second one only works once, for the obvious reasons.

2. I don't think it's fair to talk about "freedom of religion" here. Remember, this isn't the modern world where religion is mostly a personal choice without that doesn't bring harm or stuff to others. This is a world where religion is very real and it has measurable, confirmable effects on your life and after life. So don't look at Phoenix thinking "wow, they are oppressive and stomp freedom of religion" - think instead about their duty as educated samurai, who are supposed to look after spiritual wellbeing of the Empire, including their peasants. They are not stomping the sect out of malice. They are seeing a very real, confirmed threat. If you are going to compare them to anything, instead of comparing them to modern freedom of religion, think about Phoenixes as the medical experts desperately trying to fight off the anti-vaccine movement. Because that's what it is for Phoenixes - a dangerous movement that might endangers health of the whole Empire, and they consider allowing it to spread as foolish and dangerous.

1 minute ago, shineyorkboy said:

Personally I can't help but see the Perfect Land Sect in terms of the Protestant/Catholic dichotomy, where you have the belief that salvation comes from faith alone as opposed to from both faith and good works.

I was pleasantly surprised with how much I enjoyed this fic. The previous two seemed to mostly retread old ground whereas this one establishes some of how the new setting is distinct from the old one.

Since water is the element of change I feel like the wave might simply be a wave of change that sweeps across the Empire and leaves its enemies exposed.

Eh, I'm generally in favor of reprogramming the heretic geth in Mass Effect 2. It preserves the most life possible and I have a hard time seeing turning murderous xenophobes into beings capable of peaceful coexistence as something you shouldn't do. This situation isn't exactly the same, but you could maybe look at it as treating someone who's violently mentally deranged so they become capable of functioning in society.

Hmm... that got rather Orwellian, but Rokugan is already a totalitarian theocracy so it would be somewhat setting appropriate if the Dragon became the thought police.

While I would normally be against mind control, there are glaring issues if you try to militarize against a religious sect, even if that religious sect was made up of warrior monks... In this case I would certainly resort to mind control, or very quiet and total genocide of leadership with an emphasis on teaching peasants the proper beliefs, and rewarding their beliefs.

6 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

But can Dragon Clan samurai and eta only be reborn to Dragon Clan? I don't think that would really hold up. These guys could be everywhere, just nobody but the Pheonix and the Dragon care. Only the Dragon seem to have this problem.

That being said, that could make for a really powerful spiritual conflict. More so if they are not really ending up with Shinsei, but ending up lost elsewhere, out of the cycle.

In Old5R at least, it was extremely rare for a samurai's soul to be reborn into a different clan. I have no idea about peasant souls, though. If they're freer to drift around, then yeah, the birthrate problem wouldn't be limited to just the Dragon.

I'm starting to have more doubts about my hypothesis anyway. If the number of souls is finite and souls stick with their clan, then as souls gradually find their way to Yomi the population should shrink. It would be especially noticeable for the honorable clans, since presumably they have a greater success rate for reaching Yomi. Since the Crane and Lion don't seem to be having birthrate problems, at least one of my suppositions is likely wrong.

39 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I'm not sure where "slowly infiltrate, kill off, and replace the samurai of a minor clan" equates to valuing personal freedom.

SPARROW CLAN NEVAR FORGET

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. In this case, they just happened to be sparrow eggs.

Spider are the clan of outcasts from other clans, ninja born from the shadow dragon, some monks, undead, ogres, goblins, oni. They're super-inclusive, probably the least judgmental clan there is. They're the clan of, "yeah, whatever, welcome to the club."

And they're definitely proponents of religious freedom, since they've been persecuted for their worship of Fu Leng. But when they finally achieved great clan status, they were kind enough to send the Phoenix a letter informing them of Isawa Akuma's ascension to being the Dark Fortune of Power, so they could join in the celebration.

24 minutes ago, Fumi said:

In Old5R at least, it was extremely rare for a samurai's soul to be reborn into a different clan. I have no idea about peasant souls, though. If they're freer to drift around, then yeah, the birthrate problem wouldn't be limited to just the Dragon.

I'm starting to have more doubts about my hypothesis anyway. If the number of souls is finite and souls stick with their clan, then as souls gradually find their way to Yomi the population should shrink. It would be especially noticeable for the honorable clans, since presumably they have a greater success rate for reaching Yomi. Since the Crane and Lion don't seem to be having birthrate problems, at least one of my suppositions is likely wrong.

There are other possibilities. Maybe new souls are only born when an old reaches Yomi. Maybe if the soul ends up somewhere else, a new one is not created.

Or maybe the creation of a soul takes a long time, and an increase in souls breaking out of the cycle of reincarnation means that the number of souls leaving Rokugan is now greater than the number flowing in.

Aren't souls that are Tainted and thus lost to Jigoku already removed from the cycle of rebirth? So even if that's what's happening it shouldn't affect birthrates.

Plus it's not like being born without souls ever affected the fertility of the gaijin.

2 hours ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

You clearly understate the loyalty some of us had in the old days. I will never play Crane, or any other clan. I'm a Dragon.

What you have to understand is that there were basically two old Dragon clans- the one by the original creator and the one they were retconned into. I'm interested in supporting my old clan. I've no interest in supporting the mess they were made into. But it all flows from the champion. I'm not going to commit my time and money to the petty joke they became.

Lastly, who he is under that mask is *incredibly* important. Monumentally important. To call him a pivotal figure would be a grotesque understatement.

While I 100% agree with you on how ridiculous the retcons done by Wulf were, this game is a new Rokugan, to some degree at least.

If they go the 'tamashii' route, yeah, I'll be very aggravated, possibly to the point where I invest a lot less time and money into the LCG. However, this first new Dragon tale was well written, and some of the new twists seem promising. There's a good chance this is neither totally the original version of 'Togashi Yokuni', or the awful retconned version, but rather a new spin on things. Maybe Togashi partially inhabits the clan champs similar to the way Shiba does / did, but only part of the time, and does it without destroying the person's mind or soul.

42 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. In this case, they just happened to be sparrow eggs.

Nobody ordered an omelette.

But we are getting off track for this thread.

1 hour ago, Himoto said:

That "original vision" of the Dragon was of the Dragon as a walking, talking plot device who did things without rhyme or reason "because we're mysterious and we have a millenia-long master plan".

Togashi Yokuni is still getting visions and mobilising his clan based on it and yes, being mysterious. That does not appear to have changed.

14 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

While I 100% agree with you on how ridiculous the retcons done by Wulf were, this game is a new Rokugan, to some degree at least.

Which is precisely why I'm prepared to ask my questions. Dragons always ask questions.

2 hours ago, franzvong said:

My point is that you (and many old players on these forums) are judging the story mixing new and old lore as if they were the same thing.

And my point is I'm here because of the old lore. Lore which was, at a point, ruined, leading to my quitting.

All I want to know is whether they're going with the original or the retcon, so I can choose whether or not to invest my time and money. Certainly I think one is better than the other, but each to their own. I just want to make a decision for me.

2 hours ago, franzvong said:

Will he be whatever he was in the old lore? Who knows, maybe yes, maybe no, but I doubt FFG will tell you now.

The issue is that if he's the original- a patient, hero who gives his life for the empire I'm in. If he's the retcon- a kharmic cycle breaking, soul eating, irresponsible coward, I'm out.

2 hours ago, franzvong said:

You don't decide to buy a book just depending on the main character dying or not in the end (I suppose), so why should it make a difference what will Yokuni do or not do in this version of L5R story?

Believe me, I'm not concerned with Yokuni 'dying'- he actually does die in the old story. As I said, it matters to me whether he's a hero or a monster, since he leads my clan.

2 hours ago, franzvong said:

If the old story sucked, isn't there a good chance that this one will be at least slightly better?

Here's where your understanding is flawed. The original story was fantastic. And that story appears to be the one FFG has 'reset' to. That was written by a certain person (with help). No one complains about anything that happened up to that point. It was awesome. Then the writers swapped and it all went to hell. That's where all the complaints come from.

Look, I'm not demanding they go one way or another, merely asking for information so I can decide whether to spend what little disposable time and cash I have here or elsewhere.

4 hours ago, franzvong said:

and all from a single fiction where he barely speaks or acts. You old fans are really impossible to please...

Welcome to L5R!

53 minutes ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

Here's where your understanding is flawed. The original story was fantastic. And that story appears to be the one FFG has 'reset' to. That was written by a certain person (with help). No one complains about anything that happened up to that point. It was awesome. Then the writers swapped and it all went to hell. That's where all the complaints come from.

Well, that's taking a hell of a lot for granted.

50 minutes ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

No one complains about

Any time a sentence starts this way, it's wrong.

If some scientist discovered a cheap immortality drug, the internet would immediately fill with whining about how it took too long.

More to the topic at hand, not everyone is a fan of the original story.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Well, that's taking a hell of a lot for granted.

3 minutes ago, Fumi said:

More to the topic at hand, not everyone is a fan of the original story.

Are there any particular complaints you might be referring to? Anything like the complaints that emerged from the treatment of the Dragon?

1 hour ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

And my point is I'm here because of the old lore. Lore which was, at a point, ruined, leading to my quitting.

I fully understand this, but what if the story goes is a completely new direction? Not the old-good, or the old-bad, just something different. How can you judge it before it even happens?

Quote

The issue is that if he's the original- a patient, hero who gives his life for the empire I'm in. If he's the retcon- a kharmic cycle breaking, soul eating, irresponsible coward, I'm out.

And what if he is a crazy, ill man with seizures who thinks that his visions come from the kami and instead are just dreams? Making it up now, but I suppose we will discover it in the future, maybe 1 year or more after game launch. How to decide now if you are in or out? This is the only thing I'm questioning from a lot of old players, always measuring the new lore with the old one, to the point of analyzing every single word to find similarities with the known story and driving huge conclusions out of that. I do get why this happens, I just think it's going a bit too far.

Quote

Believe me, I'm not concerned with Yokuni 'dying'- he actually does die in the old story. As I said, it matters to me whether he's a hero or a monster, since he leads my clan.

Even if he's a bad or evil leader (not commenting on the specific of the old story, I have no clue about it), wouldn't he be interesting anyway, and worth playing with the clan if you like it so much?

Quote

Look, I'm not demanding they go one way or another, merely asking for information so I can decide whether to spend what little disposable time and cash I have here or elsewhere.

Basically you are demanding for spoilers, and I would be really surprised if they will give away anything that big during the first few cycles...

Love it. Great setups. Really liking the Scorpion animosity right on down to the way they think. "Rising like a Scorpions tail..."

Also really enjoying that their hugest problem is one of simply not having enough children. Very bold topic to tackle, and one with echoes of how Japan is currently dealing with something similar IRL. Likewise for their possible crossing into religious extremism. However, that topic is a whole other thing entirely in a world where the main religion is one that's categorically true right on down to the spirit world being directly contactable. I certainly hope to see a bit more of this sort of thing in the future. Rokugan with a brain, as well as a soul.

Also, I hope there is some kind of reveal or reasoning behind the mask...

Someone else has mentioned it, but I *love* how pragmatic the setting needs to be in order for a core agreement behind two major clans being the migration of fertile females with dead husbands.

And enjoying the different flavours coming through of Lion being needlessly militant just because they sense weakness and are in a position to exploit it, and the Phoenix are all about that hardline religious control to the extent of inquisitioning fools.

Definitely my favourite fiction so far, and I had no problem with 1 and 2.

1 minute ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

Are there any particular complaints you might be referring to? Anything like the complaints that emerged from the treatment of the Dragon?

Well, going off of my own subjective experience of the original story you claim "no one complained about":

I hated almost everything about the Phoenix's story up until after the Day of Thunder. Tadaka was cool, and his realization of his folly in dabbling with maho was neat. Almost everything else was crap. Tepid, talky, one-note crap.
I hated the Unicorn's essentially pointless presence in a story where they did nothing. Ask a Unicorn fan what they love about the Clan Wars. Go on. I'll wait.
I hated how everything in the **** Empire swung from Kachiko, Hoturi, Toturi, or Togashi, none of whom was terribly interesting to me.
I hated Toku. Admittedly, I hate the fallout of his story even more, but... Toku annoyed me long before the Monkey Clan came into being.
I hated the narrative box created by the conceits of the original story. It was a box canyon of a plot.

What just struck me is that one of the best things about this piece is that it doesn't focus on the Champion.

He's a cool plot device and will surely be back and more relevant, but this story is about The Dragon Clan and how they fit into the world told through the lens of a struggling Daimyo. That's what it's all about. I get that some people like their lesbian tween drama(no offence Cranes), and the Lion one was interesting because the new Lion champ seems like a very different character to the old Lion champ, and the Hot Head clan are going to have their problems with the old champs cautious, thoughtful older brother stepping in... But I like that we finally have something about the whole of the world. A bigger perspective and a story about more than just the dramas, sex lives and personal feuds of a handful of people. The scope of Legend of the Five Rings deserves to be bigger than that.

It's fitting that this breath of fresh air comes in the form of a Dragon story...

6 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Ask a Unicorn fan what they love about the Clan Wars.

I really liked Otaku Kamoko's story, especially the part where she saved the horses from the fire, only to be saved by Otaku herself in turn. She pretty much did a better Mirumoto Hitomi impersonation than Mirumoto Hitomi herself. Out of the Seven Thunders, Kamoko was by far the best story in my opinion.

12 hours ago, WHW said:

A thing I missed during my initial note-taking:
It's very easy to miss, but one of the Masashige's thought invoked pretty powerful reaction and realization in me. Which one?
The one where he notes that he never ever saw an ocean, not once in his life.

When it hit me, wow.

This made me feel Dragon's mountain seclusion more than anything else before it in the L5R universe did, I think.

This actually gives me some trepidation about the clan.
One of (if not THE) worst part of the Dragon in Old5R was their seclusion. More often than not it left them out of the story. If the beginning of New5R's Dragon is also mountain seclusion, that looks really bad. They need to come down from the mountain now and stay down.

8 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

This actually gives me some trepidation about the clan.
One of (if not THE) worst part of the Dragon in Old5R was their seclusion. More often than not it left them out of the story. If the beginning of New5R's Dragon is also mountain seclusion, that looks really bad. They need to come down from the mountain now and stay down.

I believe that's what Yokuni is saying at the end of the fiction.

19 minutes ago, Mirumoto Kojiro said:

Are there any particular complaints you might be referring to? Anything like the complaints that emerged from the treatment of the Dragon?

You might want to check out the thread about sacred cows . There's plenty of dissatisfaction there about the setup to the initial story, as well as the story itself.

I know my biggest problem with any of the old story. The way people are using it to bludgeon the new one. As someone who never read anything that happened before Ivory, when i started playing, I've been enjoying everything I've seen so far. I haven't been enjoying people propping up the old story as some how perfect, and complaining about every little change from the old story. It's annoying for someone who just wants to enjoy the game, and worse it makes old players look bad, even worse it can drive new players away.

My little rant over.